No Such Thing as Part-Time Ministry

What if bivocational ministry isn’t a backup plan, but a calling?

Brody sits down with Jon Owens to talk about pastoring a rural church while also working in construction. Jon shares his story, the realities of bivocational ministry, and why faithfulness, steady preaching, and staying rooted in one community matter. He offers a humble and encouraging perspective on serving a church while working a full-time job.

From the job site to the pulpit, Jon gives an honest look at what bivocational ministry really looks like.

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Transcript

Welcome Back And Guest Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to this week's episode. It has been so long, I feel like, since I've done an intro. Summer just wrapped. We just actually got back from vacation, which was just super restful and super great. Got to spend some time with the family. Um, but we are just so grateful for such a wonderful summer. I think Brody and I and some of the other guys are gonna hop on and do like a really big summer recap soon. So look out for that. But in this episode, Brody sits down with John Owens, who actually I think came to the very first ever established snowbird summer camp. And so it's been a really cool full circle for John. Um he came as a camper, like I just said, and then now, years and years later, he actually is the head pastor of a church and they bring students to camp. And uh both of John's daughters have worked on summer staff, they're both amazing, and I love them both. Shout out to you, Allison and Lillian. But Brody and John mainly focus on how John has been a bivocational pastor by choice and just out of the passion and desire that the Lord has placed in his heart. And so he has a really neat perspective on that and just has some really cool things to say about it. So I hope you guys enjoy and welcome to this week's episode.

Street Preaching Stories And Realities

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.

SPEAKER_06 1:39

Uh, I did uh Tommy.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Yeah, I watched it, man. He did a good job. Did he already put it out? Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah. He posted it and uh and I told Mindy, I was like, he need to go back and watch this thing. So he put it, you know, he puts it online and he does, I think they did a video too. Yeah, he had his phone. Oh, he brought his own thing, yeah. Yeah, he's set up, man.

SPEAKER_06 1:58

He's the man. So we went, we went, uh, this guy uh you know Leah's on staff? Her dad.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Oh, yeah, he has a podcast, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:06

So he was like, had asked me if he could do an interview while he's here, and I was like, Yeah, man, we can do it. He said, uh, he said, Friday work, yeah, Friday works. We I couldn't figure out where to go where there wasn't people. So we went into Jeff Garner's office and he took his phone and just made up, propped it up on the chair, you know, and just filmed the whole thing on his phone.

SPEAKER_04 2:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:31

And then we, I mean, we had Mike.

SPEAKER_04 2:33

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Yeah, he did a good job, though. Yeah. Cool. He he does a really good job. That podcast, he does uh he's been interviewing guys for for a long time, man, like five, six, seven years. And he street preaches. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:46

Hey, he's just been legit, yeah. When he interviewed me, he had just been to a World Cup game. Oh, no way. Where he don't go to the game, he stands outside and still preaches.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Like outside, they're always at the Mercedes-Benz. Yeah. Every time I'm there, they're always there.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Yeah, so they go, they're they're part of an outreach program that does like they were at the Super Bowl last year. Uh they had a dude last year, they were at the Super Bowl, like San Francisco area, and uh Muslim guy come up uh and they were praying and talking, and and the guy gets saved and ends up coming back the next day and was like, hey man, I just want to let you guys know, man, I really, really asked the Lord to save me, you know. And and the reason why was because he says this guy pulls up this huge knife and somebody had like messed with the dude's dog the day before, and he's like, had it not been, he said, if this had been the day before, he said, I'd have killed that man. And and Tommy's like, Well, I'm glad to know we're on the same team, brother. That's right. And it was just like some random dude he met, and he and his team and guys were preaching out there and wild many. Yeah, they see all kinds of stuff, man. They do uh they were at the Pride event, uh, they do a lot of Pride stuff in Raleigh where we're from.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

And uh, and of course, that's not a very, you know, favorite, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

They don't have a favorable response most of the time. But I mean they're gracious, you know. Yeah. They're gracious about it. They're not they're not the kind of guys. I would say this about them, because you you got this stereotypical street preacher guy, but they're the kind of guys that, you know, they really care about folks, they want to pray with folks, share the gospel, give them Bibles, tracts. And most of the time, people are just like, hey, I just want somebody pray with me. They'll come up and talk to them. Do they put out like a sign that says anything? Yeah, they'll have stuff like, hey man, you know, it may be a question about eternity, or it may be can I pray for you today, or whatever. It's kind of a you know, jumping off point. Their real success is Tommy, you know, uh introduced me to another fellow who's now a part of our church, and he's been doing it for 30 years. They're all on the same little team of guys, and uh Joe and those guys, they go out. They're right now in Ocean, uh Ocean City, Maryland, preaching on the boardwalk. And they're they'll be up there all week preaching. And they got teenagers, they train the teenagers to come out, and young men stand up there on the boardwalk, man, just preach the gospel and it's power wild. Yeah, so like I'll be sending Joe messages, like man, praying for your brother, and um just a they're really neat fellas. They're just neat guys and they love the Lord. Joe, 50s, 60s. Joe, Joe's probably maybe late 50s, early 60s, yeah. Him and his wife, they go to our church, they moved down here from Pennsylvania. So Joe was a missionary in Pennsylvania, street preaching in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia. So when he came down to North Carolina, you know, he's just like, I'm used to it, man, been on the streets for 30 years, you know, that kind of thing. So they they laugh at me for my can't halfway speak English and redneck, and you know, he's a Philly guy. But they go to Beth, but they go to New Bethel, man. They go to New Bethel. Yeah, he's like, man, we want to find a church we could plug in, hear the word. And I was like, I appreciate it. And Tommy actually sent them my way. They went to another church, it was kind of a bigger place, and they were like, eh, it's not kind of our thing, man. And they're just real humble people, man. Just love the Lord. And have encouraged me because I was skeptical. You know, a lot of times those guys come in, yeah. They're like, this could really go one of two ways, you know.

SPEAKER_06 5:55

Yeah, because we had there was a street preacher that used to come. Uh he was an interim youth pastor. And for our listeners, if you don't know what a street preacher is, I think it takes on a lot of different it can be it's a broad category, but like when I was growing up, there was a guy that that preached on Saturday mornings. So I grew up in Waynesville. Yeah. I grew up in a little community right outside of Waynesville, North Carolina, called Bethel. And so on Saturdays, I would go, I was the oldest grandkid. Okay. There was one a couple months older than me, but he lived about three hours away.

SPEAKER_04 6:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 6:32

So when like all through my elementary school years, I kind of was the kid, the dude that would hang out with my granddad on the weekends. Right, right. And my brother came along, and then it would be both of us together. But there was there was all through my elementary school, there was five or six years where almost every Friday night my mom would drop me off with my granddad's. And when I was uh in maybe kindergarten, I lived with him for about two months. Okay. And um my parents were going through some stuff and I lived with them for two months. Well, Saturday mornings, we go walk Main Street Wayne's when it was old school Main Street. You know, it was 50 years ago. Right. And that was when all the businesses were downtown. Right. Um, serve full service station downtown. Uh, any any goods or services, they're gonna be on the main street. Right. Well, this dude would stand out there and preach. They were the people here, man. Yep. And he would throw down, man. And I was scared to death of that guy because he would scream and yell and all that. But now there's this real big uptick because of social media and YouTube. Guys are doing it. Guys are making a whole living off of this. Yeah. And I think a lot of them are doing it well, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Well, these guys have got a pretty neat setup because where we live at, you know, we're near Raleigh, uh, North Carolina, and so there's colleges. So they they're on NC State's campus, they're on UNC Chapel Hills campus. Um, they go to a local abortion clinic, uh, stand out there and preach uh and try to, you know, save lives. And so it's uh it's pretty wild. So that's their week, man. You know, so the Monday we're here, Tuesday we're here. And these college kids, what's been an interesting feet uh feedback is these college kids, they're loving it. So they're seeing college kids get saved, and then the college kids are then coming back out giving testimonies on the quad in front of their peers, which is significant. And so, Brother Joe, you know, at our church, Tommy tell you the same thing. He's like, Man, we they've got kids that come back weekly to be, they're like, Oh, yeah, that's the guy that comes there and preaches, man. You know, come see them, hey, check on them, you know, be praying for this. I mean, it's like they got relationships with so many students, and then when the kids go home, you know, they're out for a little while and they'll come back and they'll go back and preach. So it's a different thing than what I grew up thinking of.

SPEAKER_06 8:44

So do they has have they talked about so so one of these guys is Joe is at your church?

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Yeah, Joe's at my church, and Tommy, I mean, they live close to us. His daughter Liz is a part of our church. Yep.

SPEAKER_06 8:55

And his daughter is working here at Snowbird this summer for or worked here this past summer. Yeah. Um so do those guys ever talk about people threatening them or like some of the things that's pretty intense.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah, they get some of that stuff, but I mean, most of the time, the guys that do it all the time kind of shake it off like it's thumbnail. Yeah, they just kind of deal with it. Um, some of the biggest pushback they've had has been from police. Okay. You know, and most time what they'll do is they'll figure out where's the big festival, where's the big event, you know, where the people. And a lot of times these these venues don't know what to do. And they're like, hey man, we've got the right to be here, you know, and and whatever. And sometimes they get in trouble, well, not in trouble, but they'll get pushback for using amplification. They're like, well, you can be here, but you can't use your speaker or whatever. And then at that point, the question is, well, what you know, I thought we had freedom of speech. Didn't say freedom of quiet speech or loud speech. I still got freedom of speech, you know. So there's these great, there's these gray areas with these communities and you know, local downtown cop. And most of the time the cop guys are like, hey, trying to job doing my job, man, you know, but they've had to go through some lawsuits and things to get permission. But um, like in North Carolina, one of the biggest events of the year is a state fair that's coming up, North Carolina State Fair in Raleigh, and they'll have guys there for like eight straight days, man, just rotating through eight hours a day, man. And there's a million people come through the door, man, you know, and they're just preaching the gospel, passing out tracks.

SPEAKER_06 10:23

The guy that used to come to camp that I got sidetracked a while ago. I just now remembered I was getting ready to talk about this guy that he came as like an interim youth pastor, and he was a big street preacher. But he would what I appreciate appreciate about the guys you're talking about is that I think they realize this is our this is our passion, our affinity, our gifting, our calling, but it's not for everybody. Yeah. And um everybody needs to be doing gospel work. Right. But not everybody's called to go stand on the street corner. But this dude, he was more like, if you're not doing this, you're not wrong.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Yeah. And that's what I was saying earlier, just alluding to is that was my fear. And I've told Joe this before as a friend. I'm like, you know, man, when you hear these guys come in, you're like, all right, here we go. So every person in your church that's not on the street with me must not love Jesus, you know, that kind of thing. And and they're these guys aren't like that at all. You know, and I think their connection is to find a church that can appreciate this role of the evangelist and support it and pray for it, you know, and that kind of thing. And and I think that's what they found. You know, Tommy's church has been supporting him for, you know, 15 to 20 years, you know, he's been there planted for a long time and they're ground in a local church. I think that's healthy. Yes. And it's inspire and inspires our people. Yeah, you know, as our folks are praying for them and encouraged by them and celebrating their victories and you know, walking with them through tough times. And, you know, it's been good. So it's been health, it's been healthy for my folks, and that's been good.

SPEAKER_06 11:47

I need to get Tommy on here to talk about it. Yeah, you should. I think that'd be a cool episode. That'd be a yeah, that'd be an insightful episode to hear him just talk about the philosophy, the methodology, the why, the how.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

Yeah, it takes a unique ability.

SPEAKER_06 12:57

I think for like when you talk about fight or flight or fight or flight or freeze, I'm fight. So as soon as there's a push. Yeah, and that's not that guy can't go out there and do that. I'm not you can't be in that frame of mind. Like if I'm out there preaching the gospel and somebody comes up and gets gets after my stuff, you know. I can't fight him or argue with them. Like, that's not the point. I think that defeats the purpose. Yeah, yeah. If you gotta if you don't listen to what don't invite him back. But then also you can't be flight, you know. You can't like somebody comes up. You've got to be able to stand there, maintain composure, have dialogue, even if they're losing their stuff. And that's what I appreciate about those guys that have that evangelistic gift. Um, okay, that that comment, uh, I couldn't do what you

Why Bivocational Ministry Matters

SPEAKER_06 13:48

do. That's what I want to talk about. The fact that you're as long as I've known you, which is, I mean, almost 30 years, you've been bivocational. And and I I've only ever known one other guy that had the mindset you've got. And you mean you've talked about this. And so for over a year now, I've wanted to have you come on. And I knew at some point you'd be, you know, we we we didn't have an Owens on staff last summer. And so it's actually been two years. So two summers ago, I said, Oh, I want to get John next time he's back up here. So anyway, this is for me a two-year coming kind of thing because everyone uh I think when people think of being a pastor, the idea of being bivocational, depending on where you're from, um, can mean something different or could have a different connotation. And what we mean by bivocational is a pastor who who is, I don't, I don't never say is a part-time pastor, yeah, right. Who's in full-time pastoral ministry, but also has a tent-making job or a secondary career that he's that that he's either pursuing to pay the bills or that he's pursuing because this is what God's called me to. Um, around here it's real common.

SPEAKER_04 15:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:00

But it's but here's the difference, and I'm not throwing off on anybody, I'm not casting shade. 50% of the churches around here are led by bivocational pastors, but hardly any of them have any theological education or training. So it's a guy that, and I'm thinking of a guy that is he does remodels and decks, and and uh he's he's kind of a jack of all building guy, and all of a sudden their pastor retired and he got called to preach and became the pastor.

SPEAKER_04 15:28

He's the guy, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:28

He's the guy. Zero theological training or education. And what, and and I don't want to get, I don't want to go down the rabbit trail of that dude would say, Well, bless God, I don't need them. The word of God's my training, you know, whatever. Well, that's just stupid. Don't I don't like I don't want to have that argument. Sure. But you are give me an overview of sort of what your youth ministry years looked like. What the last, what are you, 12 years in at this church?

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Yeah, yeah. Starting, if I make it till August, it'll be beginning 13. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:00

Okay. So when I first met you, you were bringing students, yeah, and you were bivocational youth pastor.

SPEAKER_04 16:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:08

So what's your so so walk me through what is your what balance between talk a little bit about what you do in the blue-collar world or in the tent making world, and then what how that works as a pastor.

Seminary Training And Construction Work

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Yeah, so for me, when I was in uh, I did go to seminary and and so I probably I had a job at another church for like two years in college, started as a summer gig, you know what I mean, did a little that was a thing back then and did youth ministry, stayed throughout the next year or so, about two years into it, I went to seminary and uh got it, graduated college. Once I started seminary, um I got called to a local church, which I brought here, uh, Blessed Hope. And uh I met the pastor, actually, the pastor and myself were in an evangelism class. Uh my first day in evangelism class, seminary, you know, I'm nervous anyway, being a seminary guy. It wasn't my thing. I it was kind of I didn't know what I was expecting. And uh I realized who this guy was because my mother had gone to his church and uh and that she kind of attended their church. And so I was like, oh, you know, I'd been in college, I'd been away, you know, I just kind of come back home. And uh first day in class, they say, All right, turn to your neighbor and share the gospel with them and try to win them to Jesus, like just this practicum thing. And I look and it's him. And so I'm like, my mom's preacher, you know, I'm sitting there, some little guy trying to lead this guy to Jesus. And I'm everything I'm trying, he's throwing, throwing me roadblocks, you know, I'm trying all the little stuff like that. Yeah, he was messing with me, you know, the whole time. Great guy, man, awesome dude. And uh afterwards he's like, man, let's go get something to eat, you know, whatever. We went and got something to eat. And he said, I'm looking for a youth pastor. And so I guess my first way of getting that job was I failed at winning him into Jesus, you know. And he's like, You need some help, you know. But uh, but anyway, yeah, so I went there um and I stayed at that church for 16 years and and served their student ministry for 16 years until I went to where I'm at now. Um so the last 12 plus have been where I'm at now at New Bethel. But um, but what started then was, well, I gotta eat, you know, I gotta figure this out. And and uh and of course it was, you know, the church was small, and uh, and I I had always had an inclination towards carpentry work. That was kind of my background and I was young, and some guys in that church were carpenters, and uh, they were like, hey, we're looking for, you know, we need a we need a grunt, you know. And so that's what started the process. And so um and then for me though, I never looked at it um as as a bad thing. Like I looked at it as an opportunity. Like, wow, I I get to meet people that I wouldn't meet that aren't gonna darken the church door, and I meet them where they're at, you know, in the field. And and construction, in the construction industry, for those who don't know, I mean, it's a pretty dark place. You know, very rarely, you know, most guys get in construction because they still hire felons and drug addicts and everything else, you know. And so that's just a reality. There's always gonna be somebody at the top hiring the folks, but it's a it's an industry that has a pretty bad, you know, route. And so, but you meet just all kinds of folks, man, and and uh, and I learned to share my faith through that, build relationships through that. It taught me a lot. You know, if you stay in a Christian bubble all the time, it's you maybe putting a learn. And uh, and I could appreciate where my people were coming from. I mean, I got people in the church working 40 hours a week, you know, and and they could kind of look at it and I could kind of appreciate, man, that is it's hard, man, to push through and go through, and you know, and and and so that's where it started, and then it just continued, and that's where it still is.

SPEAKER_06 19:29

The so when you started, so you were going to seminary. Yeah, yeah. You had already got your four-year degree from Campbell. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

I got my degree at Campbell, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:39

Good old conservative.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Fairly that's a pretty liberal I I bet you could tell some stories from there. Yeah, yeah. It was a it was definitely a liberal education. You know, my famous Campbell story is that when my senior year came, uh infuriated the professor to the point where he wasn't gonna let me graduate. So when I went to graduation in May of that year, I didn't know if they were gonna call my name. So I had got called in. Uh the guy was like, hey, you know, I'm gonna give you an incomplete. And, you know, uh he had he had offered us a class, and at the end of the class, man, back in those days, we had a thing called a blue book. I don't know if you ever heard of this, but you'd go to the bookstore, you'd buy like a blue covered book that had notebook paper in it, and that's what they took you took your test on, make sure you didn't cheat. Right. So everybody had to purchase a blue book, got inspected for your test, whatever. We got down to the end of the test, man. That's my senior year, last little religion class I was taking. I was a business major. Oh, you were? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went as a business major. You weren't a religion major. No, no, so I took all these religion classes because I knew God was calling me to ministry, but I didn't know what it was going to look like. And I'm in this religion class, man. The guy says, at the end of your test, if you want to flip it over on the back of the blue book, he says, write down what you thought about your Campbell experience. Well, I learned very early on liberals lie because he didn't really want to know what I thought about your Campbell experience. And so as I shared that with him, apparently that afternoon when he read it, he didn't like it. You know, what he meant was write what I want to hear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I was sure it was gonna be a blurb in some publication, you know. Anyway, so I did this, my roommate at the time, we were we were both in the same class, and when he says it, we just kind of looked across the room like, is he serious? Because we've been battling with these guys for four years, conservative and liberals, uh theological things. And uh so I I just said, hey, I mean, I wasn't ugly, you know, but I was young and arrogant, man. I was 18, you know, and uh I probably said some things in a way that probably could have been more kind, I'm sure. Anyway, long story short, uh, he he calls my roommate in and is like, hey, you're not gonna graduate because like you've got to come to my office and we've got to talk about this. So they worked it all out, whatever. So I'm laughing at him, you know, ha ha, yeah, you got called in. Well, about a week later, uh, back then we didn't have cell phones, and I had grabbed, I was preparing for graduation, finished up, was going to preach a revival uh at this guy's church, and my buddy. Church and uh my mom was getting phone calls from the school. I'm about two hours from home, but she's impressed because she says the dean keeps calling the house, you know. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I know what this means. Yeah, my time's come, right? He done got to the bottom of the stack, found my paper. And uh, so I had to call from my buddy's house, you know, back in the day, man, we're dialing like, you know, collect calling kind of mess, whatever. My phone calls. Yeah. And uh so I call up, talk to the dean, you know, and we just went over the phone. He's like, give me the whole spiel. So graduation is always on Mother's Day, and so I didn't have the heart to tell my mom, you know. I was the only one in my family who ever been to college, you know, and stuff. So I was everybody's like expecting a lot. I was like, it's gonna be bad if I don't graduate. So I go to the thing, and uh, of course, it was just hilarious because I mean it was the guy was just blowing smoke. But yeah, he can't keep you from Yeah, yeah, yeah. He couldn't do that. But anyway, I didn't know that as an 18-year-old kid, you know, 20, 20, something-year-old kid. Nonetheless, uh, they called my name, I was like, Thank you, Jesus. You know, my mom never knew the difference. My mother passed away a number of years ago. I don't think I ever told her. Like we just kind of all, we all knew the story, my wife and I, but we just joked. We never told mom. And uh, but that's how it went. So yeah, I come out of a liberal background, going into seminary. When I was when I was at school at Campbell, I got called in numerous times where they'd say, if you go to Southeastern Seminary, you'll never get a job in the state of North Carolina. And I was like, okay, why is that? And it's because of at the time they were really going towards conservative teaching theologically. And I said, Well, man, I'm just gonna roll the dice, I guess, you know. And they were trying to promote me to go to other institutions. And I I felt led to get higher education, you know, and I don't think that's for everybody either. But that's what I felt led to do. And I felt like I needed it and it would help me. And then over the course of time, when I went there, then I got this job at Blessed Hope. Then I realized, well, I've got, I'm working on my education. Um, so I would work every time we had a break, because these guys were gracious to me, like, hey, you can come help us. We're building houses, you know, just jump on. So I'd work anytime we had a break. I worked every, you know, we get out in December for break. I'd work, they had J J terms then. So I'd work all January. I didn't take a J term because I didn't have time. I was working. I was trying to, you know, me and Mindy were getting married, you know. So um, so that's what I did. So I'd work, go to school, work, go to school, work, go to school. And that's all I knew, you know. So then when I came out uh of seminary, I didn't know any difference. I just kept doing it. Yeah, because nobody told me I should stop. Just all of a sudden you had a degree. Yeah, that means anything, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:28

If anything, uh you thought, dang, I got a lot of time on my hands.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Yeah, I was like, papers, yeah, I'm not doing any of that stuff. So yeah, so I graduated in 02. Uh so I got my degree in 02 and uh your master's degree. Yeah. So I got my master's in 02, and and uh and so now I I laugh sometimes. I'm not digging ditches on the excavator, going, master's degree's doing a good job right here, you know. So when you were doing uh during those uh early years when you're in seminary, you're doing like mostly framing and yeah, just framing. So I framed for like seven years. That was my background, and uh which the guys I work with were a small crew and they did everything. I mean, we'd put the siding on, shingles, whatever, you know, it didn't matter, just whatever the guy needed. But uh mostly it was framing. And so that's what I did. So it was easy to jump in, jump off, you know, that kind of thing. Uh get on a crew, get off crew. So it definitely uh it's hard to be by vocational in certain occupations. Construction is a great one if you feel inclined to do it. You know, it's a great way to get in, meet people. And uh, you know, when I was in seminary though, it was it was different. I mean, you're talking, I was there in the late 90s, so 94, 98. Uh, went to seminary in 98 and to 2002. And um, during that period of time, my vocation was really looked at as a second class ministry.

SPEAKER_06 25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

You know, and and to some degree it still is. Yeah. But it was definitely looked at that way. So, like there'd be guys in class, you know, they're like, you know, what are you gonna do? I was like, well, I'm gonna take this test and I'm gonna go work on that house a little bit later on.

SPEAKER_06 25:56

We gotta put I gotta do stuff. We gotta put shingles on.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Yeah, yeah. So but they were like, well, one of these, like one of these days, they'll pat you on the back, you'll get a real job.

SPEAKER_06 26:03

You'll get a real job. Yeah, and a real preacher boy job.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:06

There there's there's There's a mentality. There's two extremes. There's that mentality where I would imagine that's what you encounter when you're at Southeastern or when you're when you're in those theological circles, or the mentality that I talked about earlier where it's like, I don't need no theological training. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Oh yeah. Well, I heard a lot of the guys do that. So you and I come from a similar background in the sense that I was raised independent fundamentalist, uh exposed to that as kind of the background. And so the the one thing I really appreciated about that was they had a deep love for the word of God. Um, there's a lot of the legalistic stuff, you know, I I even to this day I just disagree with. I just think it's fair to say, cool, it's wrong. But their deep affection for the word was was impactful because those guys, like you say, even if they didn't fully understand it, they were preaching it like they believed it. And I could appreciate that. And I, and so growing up from that perspective, you know, that that meant a lot. And so I had the love for the word, you know, and then I just felt like I needed to understand better how to prepare to lead people. And that's where I looked at the theological stuff from, you know, um, is I wanted to know that. And uh, when I was in seminary, you know, they didn't have a lot of offerings for just biblical books. Like you couldn't just go take, I'm gonna take a class on the gospel of John. Or you Oh, really? It was because they were starting the college then, which you guys are connected to now. But that was all that's how old I am. That was just getting going.

SPEAKER_06 27:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

And so the professors were stretched then. So they were taking these seminary profs. Hey, you got to go teach this intro class. You know, they were doing all that was going on, and so your offerings were like New Testament survey or Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, man, I want to get the book. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I want to get that. Like I thought, because you had understand. Or a Romans class. Yeah, I come in as idealistic, I guess, man. I I was like, I don't understand it completely. You got the PhD, tell me what it's talking about. Help me understand, you know. And so I started taking anything I could that would give me a Bible book. You know, if it was, if I got, I don't even know if I understood what he's talking about, but if it taught the book, that's what I wanted. All the other stuff, I said, I'll figure that out. All the, you know, those other kind of classes, you know, those counseling class or whatever else. I was like, if I get the book, that stuff will work itself out.

SPEAKER_06 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

So my perspective was different.

SPEAKER_06 28:17

I need somebody to tell me what Romans 9 means.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Yeah, still working on that one. But you know, like it was that kind of thing. And uh, but I embraced the bivocational ministry side of things. Again, I I realized in the seminary they didn't really teach how to be a bivocational pastor. You know, the the whole thing was designed that you would go out, you know, assume a full-time position somewhere. So I don't fault the seminary, but the reality was there was never a description of like, hey, here's how you do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a whole lot of just you and the Lord working it out.

SPEAKER_06 28:54

And you so for 16 years, you were a youth pastor. Yeah. For the first three of that or so, you were in seminary. You're in seminary, yeah, and you're a youth pastor, and you're a carpenter. Yeah, yeah. And you got married. Yeah, yeah. So that was a crazy time. And then once you finished seminary, you stayed over another over a decade at that same position. Yeah. And then did you continue to just kind of be like uh on a crew, or did you at some point did you start to do your own thing?

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yeah. So in 05, um, so I had been there at the church. I went to that church in uh '98. And then in 05, I went on and got my license, uh, GC license, and things were changing in the industry. If you didn't have it, you just were losing jobs. And so it was just a practical thing, wasn't a big deal. But it was like somebody had to do it, you know. And uh, so I got that, really started learning that side of the business. Um, and uh, and so then it just opened doors, yeah, you know, to where you can kind of pick and choose a little more. And so then I was uh still, even with my GC, I worked with some guys for a little bit, and then eventually I just started doing my own thing, and I had guys work for me then. Okay. So um, and that's the way it still is today. I mean, I've got a I've got guys that work with me and and have, you know, through the years, just keep a crew, three or four men, yeah, that kind of thing. And you mostly do homes?

SPEAKER_06 30:15

Yeah, we do homes.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Yeah, we we do residential homes. So we can kind of pick and choose a little bit on that. Most of it I don't do spec stuff, I do custom. All custom. And then we do um we do a lot of remodeling.

SPEAKER_06 30:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

And so we'll do And additions. Yeah, yeah, room additions, porches, kitchens and baths.

SPEAKER_06 30:31

And that area, you're because you're not that far from the triangle from Raleigh Durham.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Yeah, but we don't go that far out. Like I don't have to. So that's a booming area. Yeah, it is. And so if you wanted to go in that area, yeah, it's tons of that work. Um, it's too far from my house, so I try to keep everything, you know, within a couple of counties, and which I keep my guys within 30, 45 minutes from the house, you know, so they're traveling too

Staying Rooted In A Rural Community

SPEAKER_02 30:53

far.

SPEAKER_06 30:53

Which that that brings me to the the other thing I wanted to ask you, and this is really where I wanted to land. You're you're in a rural area. Very, very rural area. So you ain't gonna it's like here in Andrews, we ain't gonna grow no mega church. That's right. Yeah. You ain't growing in Andrews, North Carolina, Red Oak is 300 people, and that is a that is a big church for this area. Yeah, a big church, yeah. Because there's 1,500 people in town. So and you're in a rural area. Yeah. And so one of the things that I've just I'll tell you that I've appreciated and admired is there's not this, uh there's not this pursuit of I want to grow a big church, or I want to build multi-campus church, or I want to, it's I want to be faithful in this rural community.

SPEAKER_04 31:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:40

Um, and and by being a general contractor and having this business, you're able to stay in one community. Yeah. You're rooted. Yeah. You're so rooted in that community. I I think that there's something to be said for 26 years. Because he so 16 in one place, now 12 in another, 28 years, but those places aren't far apart. No, no, they're within 20 minutes of each other, yeah. And you're in the church you're pastoring, you went from being a youth pastor after 16 years to being a pastor. Yeah. Yeah. Lead pastor, senior pastor of this church now for for uh of New Bethel for 12 years. And that's a church you grew up in, isn't it? Yeah. New Bethel. Full circle. Yeah, that's where I got saved at. Got saved, grew up. Because your dad died when you were young.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Yeah. So I got saved in 1991. Um, my dad died in 1991, and so I was a teenager in high school. And it was at that church, man, that the pastor that was there at the time, he and I had developed a relationship. He was a new guy on the block, had just started. He started like in 1990, and so I kind of went back to church kind of thing. And um, my brother was at the church at the time, one of my brothers. So he had kind of invited me in, hey man, come on back out, you know, whatever. And I was 15, you know. And uh anyway, uh, yeah, I got saved, man. And uh and it was crazy because uh I tell the story, you know, that that what led me to the Lord. Obviously, my family, my mother was a deep Christian, my dad not so much. And so I I grew up in that environment, but this old guy came to that church one night, man, and showed an old reel-to-reel film. Like on the old 16mm. Yeah, back when back in the day, when me and you were in school, they click it up and clean it through, yeah. And uh that guy, he would have a, he had a I remember, dude, he had an old wood panel station wagon, and he drove up and he had his own little projector, he had his own little stuff, his little screen, whatever. And this was early 90s, and I remember the pastor somehow met this guy and was like, yeah, you can come by and show a video. It's so crazy to us now because that's all just a click away. Yeah, but this guy really took a lot of effort. He was an evangelist, you know, kind of guy, older guy. He showed this old video, it was a terrible Christian film, you know, just the acting was horrible. It was like a local church had filmed their own film. Yeah, it was terrible. And uh, and I remember this scene in it, the guy was talking about eternity. And this guy was like writing on a board, he's like, number one is zero, zero, zero. And he goes on, you know, that's how many millions of years you're gonna be in hell if you don't meet Jesus, you know, kind of turn or burn kind of thing. Wow. And I was like, man, I do is for real. And uh hadn't had never thought about it. I was like, man, that's a long time. Yeah, and it just got me thinking, and and uh, and so I I from that point that next week, man, I was miserable because in my mind, you had to be in the church to get saved. So I was like, man, I can't wait till Sunday's coming. You know, and I've been white knuckling that pew. And uh when that guy gave that invitation, I was gone. I was down there. You're like 15 years old. I was a 15-year-old kid, got saved, and and so then when I left the church, went to college, whatever. Um, when when all these years transpired and the opportunity came to go back, uh Mindy and I had been at Blessed Hope for all those years. I talked to the pastor and said, hey man, I think it's about time I need to probably move on. And I was gonna look for a job to be a lead pastor of some sort. And uh I felt like I had I didn't leave under bad terms. I think the students were doing well. I mean, those students are here this week at camp. And actually one of my students is leading that group that's here this week. Yeah, Chris. So, you know, I'm I was very blessed that got honored that, but we didn't leave in a bad way. But I was like, I don't think I'm I think I need to do something else. I need to be a little more casting some vision or something. And so that's how we left it. And I was months, man. I didn't have anywhere to go. I mean him had just talked about it. I said, I'm gonna be looking, you know. And then I don't know, six or seven months later, that opportunity came to go back home. And uh, this church is about three miles from my house. I drive by it every week when I was going to Blessed Hope. And then I met their pastor, a new guy they had, and he's like seminary fellow, and he was done leaving. And I said, Well, I said, Can I turn my resume in? And he was like, Man, you know, if you turn it in, they're gonna get you. They're not gonna even go look anywhere. Yeah, you know, homegrown. And I said, Well, you're probably right, maybe I don't know. They had called me through the years, you know, whenever something would happen, Beth would reach out and be like, Hey, you interested in looking at it? I'm like, nah, man, you know, got it and told me to leave. So I just kept staying, you know. And so I turned it in. I didn't I didn't know how to write a resume. I hadn't done one in 16 years. So I scratched out something on a little document and like, here you go. It's pretty blank, you know. I've done this for the last couple years, you know. And I went back. And um, but you know, that was a great experience. So being able to come home and one of the conversations was, what are you gonna do if something I remember in the committee meeting, they were like, what happens if, you know, you gotta go or you get fired or something? I'm like, well, I'm not moving because I built my house down the road three miles away, you know. So I'm not going anywhere. I mean, if I move, I move, but it ain't because of that, you know. Yeah. So I guess y'all gotta learn to live with me, you know. And they were like, down roots. Yeah, because I'm like, y'all ain't moving. If you get mad at the preacher, you ain't going nowhere. You know what I mean? So what's the difference? I was like, well, we've got to love each other through it. And so God's been good, been faithful. That's so good. Oh man, that's so good. But yeah, so that's what happened. It was funny because when I went to the church, I was going, I remember sitting there and uh one of the ladies had typed up a uh the budget thing, you know, an offer, and they slid it across the table to me. And I remember looking, I said, Well, that's a $10,000 pay cut to go from being a youth pastor to the main gap. Wow. So I said, All right. And so I went home, I told my wife, I said, Well, pretty much we got the job. I said, bad news is we gotta fill in some gaps. I'm gonna have to build more houses. I need to get some decks or something going. And uh, of course, over the years, man, they they've blessed, you know, they've been good to me, man. And it was funny. But yeah, so that was the way it went down. I said, most guys would say this is the wrong direction. Yeah. But if that's what God's called you to do, you just do it. Just do it. And you trust God. You know, one of my one of my dear friends was a guy named Jim Shattocks, and Jim would tell me sometimes, he said, Man, God's the God of the gaps, and he just fills in the gaps. He said, Don't worry about it. God fills in the gaps. And after all these years of ministry, I think that's true. I don't know there's ever been a time where I was like, man, I went out missing because God couldn't do something. Yeah. If I needed it, he filled it in.

SPEAKER_06 38:03

Um Yeah, he he did you have him for like expository preaching?

SPEAKER_02 38:08

No, no, that was afterwards, yeah. I was like gone by the time he showed up. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 38:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

And he died of cancer? Um We just became friends through the years.

SPEAKER_06 38:19

Yeah, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

I I just I built a room edition on his house before he moved up here from Alabama. Really? Yeah, so I met him over the phone. So yeah, this guy, like I didn't know.

SPEAKER_06 38:34

Like I thought a seminary professor at Southeastern, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Yeah, yeah. He was doing like an adjunct thing. You know, he was at this church in Alabama, and it's where David Platt was. And him and David were buddies or whatever. And he was gonna move up here to take a permanent position. And so they bought a little house downtown, real quaint little rancher. And a buddy of mine was his TA, uh teaching assistant at the school, and was like, hey man, would you be interested in doing a room edition up here in Wake Forest? I said, Yeah, it's no big deal. We'll help out. He said, I got the guy's gonna do some of the work himself, but he wants you to, you know, fill in the blanks what he can't do. He has to go back on the weekends and stuff. I was like, it's kind of weird, you know. So he was flying from Alabama up here teaching and flying back and preaching on Sundays uh down there in Birmingham. And so that's how I met him. And it was hilarious because I didn't really know much about him, you know, uh, at the time. And of course I knew his name, I read his books, but I didn't know who he was. And it's just the most humble man uh I ever met, and one of the most humble guys I ever met, and tremendous disciple maker. Um, and anyway, we became just friends, just working in construction. And so I look at that as a grace of God, man. Like, you know, if I hadn't had the ability to do that, I probably would have never crossed his path, you know. And so God in his providence knew what he's doing, you know, put us together and became friends. And over the years we'd go back and remodel and do things for him and just and man, he loved all my guys, you know, and not all my guys are Christians. And he'd bring them in the house, he'd feed them, dude, his wife would cook for him, do stuff, you know, just man, it was a it was tremendous. And so anyway, that's that's the story.

Credibility Earned Outside Church Walls

SPEAKER_06 40:03

There's a credibility that you have with people in a rural blue-collar community when you pastor the way you pastor. It reminds me of I spoke one year at uh at one of the larger state conferences, you know, like states will do their youth conference. Used to all the Southern Baptists uh state uh the state Southern Baptists used to call it YEC Youth Evangelism Conference. Yeah, yeah. And I've done Virginia, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, and the and I think it was the Georgia one in Macon where uh the the guy that was the lead Humvee driver in the Black Hawk Down story. Wow. His name's uh Jeff Strucker. Yeah, he went to Southeastern. He went his Southeastern guy. Yeah. So I so I preached at this, and Strucker preached. So I got and I'd gotten to know him because his the church he was pastoring at the time came to Snowbird. So his boys came to camp. But I remember sitting there talking to him and saying, Okay, walk me through your career. Because I read the Black Hawk Down book when it came out, and then I saw the movie, you know, and he just was a dog in that man. He's he's the lead Humvee driver, and they they get out of the city and then he leads the charge back in to go pick up injured. And yeah, he said, uh so he was like two-time Ranger of the year. And then at the end of his military career, he became a chaplain.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:34

And I said, All right, what is it like having been in the 75th Ranger Regiment and then becoming a chaplain?

SPEAKER_04 41:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:40

I said, was I asked him just point blank, was there a different credibility that you had among troops because you had accomplished what you had accomplished. Whereas a lot of chaplains, they go from college to seminary to chaplaincy. Yeah. And he said, without a doubt, he said there was a different street cred. I think, you know, the way your career and um your ministry, yeah, I hate to use the word career, but you know what I mean. Yeah. The trajectory of a quarter over a quarter century of ministry now.

unknown 42:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:11

I'm just telling you, man, there's people respect that and there's a credibility that comes with. I mean, I get up and tie my work boots on and make a living just like you.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Well, and that's and that's one of the things that I appreciate about it.

Pushback From Churches And Lazy Shortcuts

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Um, and I have over the years, like I remember normally there's a couple of issues with bivocational guys, and sometimes it has to do with the church itself. And I ran into that, like where there are churches that won't accept a bivocational pastor, like just the concept, because I think sometimes churches have egos. And so some churches will be like, no, we deserve this. We you know, whatever you're doing is not what we deserve. And I I I when I I applied for a church one time, and I remember uh I put my resume in, they had taken a bunch of resumes and uh they were open and I sent it, and I remember the guy calling me and he goes, Hey man, we're really interested. We boot we bumped you up in the list, man, we'll do an interview, the whole thing. And I'd never done this, man. I I don't interview because I don't go anywhere. I'm just kind of hanging out. And I was like, okay, I said, Well let's talk. And and then we talked about by vocational ministry. And at the time he was like, Well, now we don't we don't do that, we won't allow that, you know. And I he said, I don't think our our folks will go for that. And I'm like, okay, well, and I and I knew the church, you know, and I was like, man, like how how many people y'all on a Sunday morning, like what are your expectations? Maybe I was misunderstanding. He said, Man, we got about 70 people. You know, and I was like, okay, well, at the time I had about 35 in my youth group. And I was like building houses, you know. Yeah. And I was going, I mean, I mean, not trying to be a jerk, but I was like, I can probably manage, you know, like I mean, get my feet wet, you know, be okay. If it's overwhelming, I'll quit, you know, kind of thing. It was just strange. And so I I I just called him back and said, Look, man, I tell you what, just I'm gonna save you some headache. Just take my name out, and I don't think it's gonna be a fit, you know. And uh, but they wanted they wanted Wanted me to go and sit in the office. You know, just for me to sit there and do the thing and look the part and and I'm not bashing them. But my point is it's not just them. It was it was the seminary. You know, didn't really look at it as a first class thing. You know, that's not a real real thing. It's uh it's always a temporary fix, is the way they look at it. Well, you got to do it sometimes, you know. Um, but the idea of a long-term ministry being that way was just a foreign concept. And then, you know, the churches sometimes are pushing back. And I'll tell you, sometimes, man, the problem by vocational is the ministers are just lazy. You know, and I'm not saying everybody, but I think there's there's there's just guys that are lazy, and so they go, well, I don't want to be by vocational. Because otherwise, if I take this church with this small group of people, there's no notoriety in it, uh-huh, and I might go get another job, it'd be a lot easier for me to go here to take this church. All I gotta do is pastor. All I gotta do is pastor, man. I just gotta walk in, do a couple weddings and funerals, you know, and you know, preach my my three or four good messages I got, and I'm good. And it's a lot easier. Yeah. And yes, and so I'm not judging the the guys in those positions, but I think that there's there's that personal level that there's a difficulty that some guys are like, I'm not not gonna do it. And I just think that's sad. I think there's a lot of opportunities being missed.

SPEAKER_06 45:14

Yes. All right, I got two final questions.

A Realistic Week With Two Jobs

SPEAKER_06 45:17

First one is walk me through a general, not super detailed, because I know it no two weeks look the same, but what's the general flow of your week to week? Like what's your normal week look like between you got a house going and a couple decks or and then you're Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

So, so for me, you know, I'm preparing multiple Bible studies a week. You know, normally I'll do a Bible study and I'll do a sermon and I look at those as two different things. The Bible study usually Wednesday night. Yeah, so I'm doing, yeah, I'm preaching on Sunday mornings, I'm doing a Bible study on a Wednesday night now, and then we'll do um normally during the course of a uh during the month, you know, there'll be multiple other events. I'm called upon a wedding, a funeral, something, uh, or small group, you know, we'll do small group ministry stuff. Um I I've I don't I no longer teach like a Sunday school class. I used to do a lot of that. I I have kind of pulled back on that some. And we've got but the blessing is I've got other people doing it and they're they're thriving and you know, I don't they don't need me in there. I was just the go-to because here he can do it. Um, but so during the week, the biggest thing is I'm probably putting more study into my Sunday morning delivery, my sermon uh prep time-wise, my Wednesday night stuff um is also uh gonna demand time, but I'm not preparing it for sermon delivery. So it's more of a, you know, we're sitting there talking, you know, people can interact a little bit, you know, it's a little bit different thing. But my commitment from the very beginning has been expositional preaching. So we preach through books of the Bible, verse by verse, chapter by chapter. Text-driven. Yes, we do, yeah. And that's all I do. And I tell people from the beginning, I was like, man, I I'm not creative, you know, I'm not gonna impress you with my creativity, but I said my goal has been that over the course of my ministry, I would rather people say, man, yeah, I started I went to that church not because of the huge pizza party or the balloon thing that they did outside with the kids or what it, but like I went to that church when he was in like First Timothy. Like that's what they'll remember, right? Like that was the thing that that stuck out. You know, because I'm like, that's the point. I want to get them to the word. And and you know, my my thing has always been, man, just be faithful, preach, do the thing, do the hard thing, and then die and be forgotten. Like it doesn't matter, and just move on. And uh, and so I'm content with that. And I think when you get there, you know, you're okay.

SPEAKER_06 47:28

It's a good place to be.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

It's a good place to be. You're get you got a lot of liberty and a lot of freedom. Of course, now I've been not to slash any other churches that here on week eight, but I got the best church, you know, of anybody. Uh got some of the best folks. Uh, but um, but I but God bless me with a church that are super genuine people that love the Lord and have really helped me grow uh as a man and helped me grow as a minister. And some I I value, man, I got some really strong dudes in my church that that encourage me, strengthen me, you know, and um, and just have been so faithful that kind of inspire me. Like I want when I'm 70 years old, I want to look like that, you know, and if I get that much. And and so that's that's kind of how it goes. So for me, my work-wise, um the the work kind of runs itself over a period of time. You know, it's never gonna be easy from, you know, in the beginning, but if you've been doing it as long as I have, it kind of takes care of itself. You kind of learn your rhythms. Um, but study time for me, man, is you, you know, if you do by vocational ministry, you're gonna lose sleep, you're gonna work hard. You know, I'm normally first one up, I've always been at the house and the last one to bed. And uh when I had two daughters at the house living there in the house, you know, my study time was mornings and the late evenings, and in between I'm nailing nails, you know. And so in that time over the years, I learned to listen to good preaching. You know, if I'm if I got what I call windshield time, you know, I gotta put in something maybe to get me thinking, um, something on the text. I'm studying that week, which is another advantage of being bivocational and being expositional. I don't think you can do it and be topical.

unknown 49:05

No.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Like you'll just crash and burn. No way. So for me, like I know, you know, where I'm going. You know, whether whether I want to go there or not, that's where the text is going to be. Where the text goes. So, so week by week, there's no surprises, like it's where it's gonna be, you know. And so I'm just preparing, you know, Monday morning. I know Sunday's coming, brother. So you gotta get it done. And even if you're at a small church like mine, they still expect the A game. And if you if you don't believe it, you know, you do you do a couple of yeah, you do a couple of them sermons where they know you hadn't studied, know you hadn't prayed up. You somebody pull you aside. Hey, brother, what's going on?

SPEAKER_06 49:38

What's going on, man? You seem distracted.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

Yeah. So it's hard. I mean it's hard, but I I think it's it's been a blessing for me. It's not for everybody, you know. But the other thing that led me to bivocational too, uh, one of my commitments was that and nothing's changed from what I can tell statistically. I'm a Southern Baptist, but in our Southern Baptist numbers that we get every single year, it's the same thing. And that is the most recent ones were that 88% of churches in the SBC, all right. You got 50,000 churches, 88% of them are 200 people or less. Which means if you roll your carp in any given town and it's an SBC church, nine out of ten that you walk in the door is gonna be less than two hundred people. You know, so this mentality of guys like I've got to go to this big church, like that's fine, but you're gonna be in the minority of the churches. And and 45% of our churches are 50 people or less in SBC. So you know you could argue for whatever reason why that is, but that's just the way it is. So might as well say half the churches are like 60, 70 people, maybe. And and what what I saw in seminary was guys looking at that and saying, I don't want to go there. I only want to go over here. And I looked at that and said, Man, those guys need good pastors. You know, like those communities need good pastors. You know, there's people living and dying going to hell, man. And and and so I I think that's where my heart was. And I was, you know, and I and God settled my heart that's okay. It's okay to be Man, I love that. To be unknown. I love it. You know, and just do your thing, be there.

SPEAKER_06 51:13

Yeah, man. I love it. I'm just kinda I think I'm just kind of fatigued of pastorslash social media influencers. Yeah. You know, I'm just fatigued of it. You know what I'm talking about, man? It's like every time like I I just I'm not on social media, like I don't have Facebook, I don't uh I don't do Instagram, but I I I mean I look at stuff, I you know, yeah keep up with it, just try to have a pulse of what's going on. And so I use Snowbird's platforms. Yeah uh we have an awesome media team here, so I can go and look that way, and it's like, man, I feel like a lot of pastors, the energy they spend on influence and I don't know. I I hate to be, I don't want to be critical. Well, every man's gonna answer to God for how he does his thing. But to me, I'm not being judgmental. No, I know, but I think we are eyeball to eyeball, we see the same on this. It's like put your hand to the plow in that little community, in that little church, or in that suburban or metropolitan, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not rural. There's enough people dying and going to hell in your community, enough people needing good discipleship, yeah, with numbers not being a motivator. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

Just do the work. Yeah. And and the and the issue is, and this is the practical side of it, is that when you got a church with 50 people in it or 60 people in it, the numbers financially aren't there typically. And so I get it. You know, that's why the bivocational thing comes into play. Um, and I think that's what I mean where I when I say earlier, and I'm not trying to be offensive, but when I say guys are lazy, it's just like the easier way out is to go where the numbers see, once you get two or three hundred people, the numbers kind of handle themselves. Because you're only gonna have a select

Small Church Numbers And Big Need

SPEAKER_02 52:55

few give anyway. So just the practical side of ministry of salaries and things like that, like it's gonna kind of take care of itself, even if the bare minimum give. But when you when you're looking at a skeleton crew sometimes, you know, and you're you're like, man, what do I do? You know, then then you've got to pursue this other ministry, but it's hard. It's a hard way of going. Yeah. But now the other thing is too with me, uh that really was a conviction, especially once I got married, and then once I had kids, was that you know, your your time management becomes a major thing. And and so I've I've got to give to the ministry. I gotta give to the work, but I've also got my family, you know, and uh, and so I I tried to really prioritize, man, you know, the the simple showing up, being at the ball game, going to the thing, doing the, you know, and it and there was times where I was like, man, I'd really like to go take a nap. But you know, I and and and our family dynamic, you know, the kids were used to dad showing up smelling like sawdust and rolling in sideways on the truck with dragging it. Man, I come to plenty of events, man. I got a trailer with dump trailer behind it, you know. I mean, I'm sure there's times they were like, oh my word.

SPEAKER_06 54:00

Oh no, no, I I will tell you right now, that's not. They love that. Yeah, they love it. There's it is a source of pride for them. And I know your girls really well. We've never had that conversation, but I can tell you right now, when I would show up at my daughter's, when I would show up at Laylee's stuff, yeah, you know, dirty, having been in the grind all day, she's like, there's a there's a badge of pride that goes with that for a kid. So they're they're proud of a dad that works hard.

SPEAKER_02 54:26

So I know I think that's something to consider. I mean, you you know, you you can't, you know, men, I think guys are wired to be providers, you know, in some ways and protectors. And and I think sometimes we we we communicate our provision based on making money. You know, and there's that temptation to be like, well, I've done enough because you know, you got the lights on.

SPEAKER_05 54:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:47

And I think part of that is to say to guys, the temptation, I guess the danger with bivocational is that you could also take a lot of pride in that you're doing a lot of things. And I don't think that's healthy either. You know, just being like, well, I'm the guy that can do it, you know. And I, and you know, and I and I and that's what I'm saying. Like a lot of guys, it's not their calling, so they're not gonna do it well. Um, but I think God wires certain people certain ways, just like we talked about evangelists. I think a guy that that if you feel this inclination, man, the spirit leading you to by vocational ministry, I wouldn't quench that. I'd say, God, show me how to make that work. Yeah, boy. And uh and find a way to do it. And I think, and then then don't take pride in those things. Like, you know, I I tell people all the time, man, you know, I'm yeah,

Trading Influence Culture For Faithfulness

SPEAKER_02 55:28

I build houses or I build whatever, uh, but that's not my identity. You know, that's just what I do, but it's not who I am, you know, and and those things are a means to an end. And I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_06 55:40

Because the flip side is you could you could very quickly look down at full-time guys. Yeah, and uh, you don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

Right. Now we're on the same team, man. We're all preaching the same gospel. Yeah, I just I just look at it and say, like when we were mentioned Dr. Shattox earlier, like I went one time and he invited me to come speak to his preaching class and was like, hey man, come here and talk to these guys about biocational ministry. Dude, I scared them. I had one of the guys come to me afterwards and just like, and he's a he's a great friend of mine now. We he's a church planner, and he said, dude, I said, You remember that class you come to when we were in seminary? I said, Yeah. He said, Man, I was terrified. I was like, I don't know how to do none of that stuff. Like, I don't know how to be that, you know. And and I was like, Well, that wasn't the point, you know. But the reason he brought me in and we talked about it was because Jim and I had shared, and he was like, John, I really see the future of the church looking a lot more like this. That there'd be guys that, you know, get their education, you know, and then go out and be willing to do it. And and he was really an advocate for it, you know, of saying, hey, you know, I mean, he was a guy who was a seminary guy, you know, but he was like, Man, if we could train guys to get in the real world, you know, like that, rub shoulders with people.

SPEAKER_06 56:46

Because I will say it goes both ways where too many, too many guys that are church members on Sunday are consumed with a successful career. Yeah, they'll chase the money, yeah, they'll chase the market. Well, I gotta move to this affluent community to do this line of work, or I've got to be, and so they're not satisfied until they're making more money, but then when they get to that level, they're not satisfied until they're making more money. Yeah. So they're always chasing it. Or let me go into full-time ministry because I need a job where all I do is pastor. Yeah. Both of those can become very what I love about what you do is um you're not chasing the dollar, you're providing for your family. Yeah, you're providing shepherding leadership. There's that say in it, I love a shepherd ought to smell like a sheep, you know, and there's that you I just it to me is such a cool picture. I'm not again, I'm not saying it's the only way to do it. No, no, no. But it's my favorite way to watch somebody do it.

SPEAKER_02 57:47

And it's been fun for me. Look, it's been beneficial for me, my family. I think it shows there's plenty of times you're like, if God doesn't do this, if God doesn't show up, you know, we're in a bind. And and God shows up time and again, and and you know, you're okay with that. And uh and and and I'm okay. Like we joke in my house sometimes. Uh my girls will tell me, they're like, we hear Brody talking sometimes. We're like, man, it's our dad. You know, because we because me and you say a lot of the same things. And uh and it's funny because like you've been talking about die tired. Well, see, I I I I've always I I really have a problem with laziness. Bugs me. And I've always had this problem with with guys always needing to take breaks. I'm like, man, get your rest when you get to heaven. You know, just work hard. Just work hard, be faithful and push through

Family Priorities And Working Without Pride

SPEAKER_02 58:32

and and you'll get plenty of rest, you know, and it'll be the best.

SPEAKER_06 58:34

It'll come later.

SPEAKER_02 58:35

Yeah. And so that's okay. And so when you when you began to say those things, even in the last year, it particularly emphasizing them. My kids are calling me, going, Oh my, it's like we're listening to you preach. Because like I said on Sunday, but now I'm I'm throwing red meat to my crowd. Yeah, right. Because I got a bunch of guys like me. That's right. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, okay, you know. So so I know, you know, I know what's going on. But yeah, man, God's been good, God's been faithful. Your girls really thank you for letting me share a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 58:59

Yeah, man. I appreciate you coming on. And it's for me, it's been two years wanting to make this happen, but I wanted to just do it when you were gonna be in town. Let me tell you, last thing, JB's behind the camera today. Um I have loved your oldest. Lillian's been here for three summers now. Yeah. Your baby girl is a nut. Capital K-N-U-T-T, if that's a word. She's a nut, man. She's so they're both, them two girls, when they get together, yeah. I mean, it is a hoot. And I watched them yesterday. Liz and Allison are practicing there, they're gonna fight on fight night tonight.

SPEAKER_04 59:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:40

So by the time this is recorded, it'll be said and done. But um, or but by the time this is posted, but as we're recording, they're fighting tonight. Liz and Allison are gonna go at it. I'm so proud. And yes, I'm so proud. They're so funny. And uh Lillian comes over there and is like coaching her up, telling her what to do, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:57

Yeah, Lillian's Lillian's probably mothering her a little bit. Yep. And Allison's like, I don't want to hear any of this. It's so entertaining. Have a couple of kids, it'll be fun. That's right. That's right. That's what they say. That's what they say. No, man, we've been blessed, man. Look, I and it's and that's good that you mentioned that. And I appreciate you, you know, I love what you guys do about pouring in our kids. You know, I I brought Lillian here. Well, Mindy, Mindy and I brought Lillian here. Uh, she was born in March. We did camp in June. That's crazy. And we were first-time parents, and uh Mindy spent the night at and stayed at Kahunas. Yep. You know, so they hope they hosted us that week at Kahunas. I stayed in the cabins with the boys and girls, you know, the boys, and Mindy would bring uh Lillian over, and then Allison, same way, you know, she was born in May. We were here at week eight, you know what I mean? Like bring them. Um so just uh And now they're serving here together. And now they're serving here together. And and and at the end of the day, uh honestly, to be able to go and say, Man, I got some some children at this point in their life, they don't hate the church, you know what I mean? They and they love serving the Lord. Man, I I I don't Win. When that's a capital bug, I'm okay with that. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:06

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

No matter what, no matter what career paths, I mean, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:10

Somebody, somebody told me the other day, said something, something about little and Laley. They're talking about something at my house and and uh oh, they're talking about how they decorate, and I said, Little could probably make a whole bunch of money doing this stuff. And Laley, and and the person I was talking to said, yeah, but little don't care nothing about making no money. Yeah. And I was like, she really doesn't. Yeah. And uh just yeah, man, gossiping driven and yeah, it's good. That's the game, that's the game plan.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

So thank you.

Snowbird Shoutouts And Closing Thanks

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Thanks, man. Thank you, brother. Appreciate you, man. Appreciate it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at swoutfitters.com to see all of our programming and resources. And we'll see you next week on No Sanity Required.