Abortion, Adoption, and the Gospel | Interview with a Pro-Life OB-GYN

In this episode, Brody and Adam Garner sit down with seminary-trained physician and maternal-fetal medicine specialist Jesse Cottrell to discuss the intersection of Biblical truth and high-risk pregnancy care. From miscarriage, abortion, and adoption to suffering, hope, and the authority of Scripture, Jesse shares how his faith shapes the way he cares for patients and navigates some of life's hardest conversations. This is a thoughtful discussion on medicine, theology, and living out the Gospel in the real world.

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Transcript

Episode Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

So all right, we're jumping right in here. Let me let's back up. So we were having a conversation, and I'm like, oh, we need to record this. So part of your story is you went to Master's Seminary. Yeah, and Master's College, yeah. You went to college at Master's. And you and Johnny Mack, you and Johnny Mack go way back.

SPEAKER_05 0:35

Oh, no, no, no. So, yeah. So, my buddy Todd, um, yeah, so he had told the seminarians when my dad was in seminary there, whatever makes my wife happy, that's what I do. So that was his answer.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

They're asking this profound question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:47

What's what is the wisdom of being married?

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:50

How do you have a like a happy, successful marriage? You know, you've been in ministry all these years. Uh-huh. Um, and that was his answer. Whatever makes my wife happy, that's what I do. Hey, that's why that guy ran his race the way he did maybe age of 90.

Washing Windows With John MacArthur

SPEAKER_05 1:03

Yeah, he did. So they they were having an event for the seminary wives, because we were talking about when you meet someone in real li like when you hear someone on a podcast, it's like, and then you meet them in real life. Like how you feel like you kind of know him. So we went over to his house um, because the catering company that did the cafeteria was setting up for the seminary wives coming over. And um, my buddy Todd, who was the head of the catering, uh, outside catering, was like, hey, you want to come set up? We got to go to the MacArthur's. I'm like, yeah, let's do it. So we loaded up all the tins and pans and all that. They were gonna bring the food later. And then um, of course, uh, Mrs. MacArthur was there, Patricia, she was there, and then Johnny Mack was there. So uh, so we're unloading the stuff from the car, and just like he had told the seminarians all those years before, he asked his wife, what do you want me to do? You saw it. And she said, I need you to wash the windows. That's awesome. And he looked at me and said, Let's go. Now, what was hilarious about that was the night before, or like two or three nights before, he had been on Larry King Live, and they were talking about the Pope. So he was like the whole time we're washing windows, he was going off about the corruption of the papacy and how this person was, you know, cheating on this person and this person was doing that the whole time we're washing windows.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

You're washing windows with John MacArthur, yeah, talking about the Pope two days after he's on the biggest primetime news.

SPEAKER_05 2:28

And he's still fired up about it. I mean, he is still fired up about it, and that was like my only in all my years of college there. Like that was my only personal interaction with him. I'm like, ah, this guy's real bad.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Hey, remember what was it after 9-11 in his viral moment where he's on, I think Larry King. Uh-huh. And I don't remember if it was 9-11, but there's two other clergymen. Oh, yeah. Remember that? Yeah, yeah, like a sheikh or like an imam. Yeah, and a Methodist pastor. Yeah. And and I we're the gloves have come off, and now we just say it like it is. The United Methodist Church, the way they've gone, I don't mind saying it like it is, you know. But yeah, he asks each of them, I think about salvation. And that the Methodist guy is like beating around the bush. And Johnny Mack takes an excerpt right out of his study Bible, you know. And say, hey man, there's one way to get this done. I mean, he that dude never pulled the punch. We had there's a never, you know, Quintel?

SPEAKER_04 3:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

We had a a pastor here, longtime friend of ours. We had him speak at our, was it B Strong?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Black dude grew up in Birmingham, Deep South, you know, no dad, grew up in the hood, got saved by going to this little white church and playing on their outside basketball goal. And uh, you know, a lay person who was doing the youth befriended him, and it's really cool testimony. So now this guy, Quintel Hill, is like he's pretty high up in the Southern Baptist Convention, and uh, I think maybe state something with Southern Baptist. But we were talking one time, and and he's a reformed dude. Yeah. So, you know, a black Birmingham inner city native, you know. So it's kind of that Vodie Balcom kind of story, you know. So we're sitting, we're sitting around a group of us, or sitting around the fire. I think Adam was there, me, Zach, Spencer, Rob, and uh, and Quintel said uh something, something came about Johnny, John MacArthur. He's like, Johnny Mack now, Johnny Mack, he would he would call anybody out, he'll call out Jesus. He's hardcore. He would, man. He caught he don't pull a punch. I'm I'm thankful for that, man. I told I told somebody the other day, they said, Who do you listen to? And I said, Ah, I got a few guys I like to listen to. Mostly guys I know, like pastor friends of mine. Sure. I know their life, I know their marriage, I know their, but I'm like, once a guy dies, if he's finished his race well, I'll dig in. See, I listen to Sproll and MacArthur and and uh I've started, I've only just recently started listening to Tim Keller, you know, and so I'm thankful for that dude. But probably a lot, I don't know if Adam, if yours your story, when you first came to Snowbird, I don't know how many dudes at Snowbird, John MacArthur's like the first guy they really influenced by, either through his study Bible or his commentaries are so accessible, so accessible and and not hard to follow and understand, but they're theologically sound, you know.

SPEAKER_05 5:29

And you you see these viral clips of him. And I mean, it was very interesting. I didn't go to Grace Community, but my wife did. So, like how he preached on Sunday morning was um, and like I said, this is you know fairly limited experience, but how he preached on Sunday morning was um, I think how the commentaries were generated. And then Sunday night was very uh pastoral. Oh, yeah. Like we'll talk about a book maybe hopefully later on called Safe in the Arms of God, which um I like to give uh to um couples that have experienced miscarriage. It's kind of like a biblical defense for why babies go to heaven. And um, and that I'm I'm pretty sure that came from like a Sunday night series. But then in chapel, oh my word. I remember like the very first chapel I went to, he was talking about how uh Benny Hinn was talking about his Holy Spirit machine gun. And Johnny Max, like, if the Holy Spirit had a machine gun, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't give it to Benny Hinn. Just say it like it is. Oh, yeah, in chapel, it was like it was like, oh yeah, Johnny Max there in chapel. Oh, loved it. Oh, then we loved it. Loved it, man. That was funny. I'm grateful for him. Um and my dad, how we ended up in Southern California.

Authority And Sufficiency Of Scripture

SPEAKER_05 6:38

That's what I was gonna ask you. My dad went to master seminary, and I'm not totally sure how he heard of the because that would have been early. Yeah, because um, so my dad was in uh special forces and um he was army ranger, so he got saved. Uh we were talking about it earlier. It's like the coolest thing. We always joke that my mom was missionary dating when they were in college, but she sent my dad home with a Bible.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

So it can work, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:03

No, she says she wouldn't have married him if he didn't get saved, but she sent him home with the Bible and he read John, got saved just by reading the Bible. So when people ask me, like, um, I think sometimes when they talk about when I hear about the Bible at work, I just ask him, have you read it? It's the number one best-selling book of all time. Have you ever read it? Yeah, because there's power in the word. Like, if you read it, that's how my dad got saved. So he he got called out of ministry, uh, called into ministry, sorry, from being in special forces. So I was born in North Carolina here. He was at Bragg for Womack, Womack Army Medical Center. That's where I was born. Yeah, my older brother and sister were born in um Germany. You're stationed over there for a while. So how old is your dad? See, he was born in 54. Okay. So 70.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

So he was in Vietnam era. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:53

He didn't, I don't, I'm pretty sure he didn't go to Vietnam.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

He just missed it. He would have just missed it. Just missed it. Yeah, because by the time he would have been through training and pipeline, it would have been mid-70s. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:03

So I mean, God had a plan for his life because he's uh you know a leader of men.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:07

So shepherd to the max. So we ended up moving, like I said, even though he's from Northern California, my mom's from Southern California. That's how we ended up back. So that's where I grew up all my young adult life, like childhood, you know. But I got saved. He was um doing kind of do some vocational ministry. God made it pretty clear, like no matter what he tried, other than ministry, just you know, like he was trying to roof a house. Poured rain, people's house flooded.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Right. Okay, I'm gonna be roofing this.

SPEAKER_05 8:33

So he was preaching at a hotel church here in North Carolina and um preaching about uh hell. And I mean, he's not like a fire and brimstone guy, but I remember going up um and kind of tugging it asleep. He's like, Oh, you know, I'm busy, I'm busy. I want to get saved. And so um our church did. Have you ever heard of that? Like, like a I think they call it like the 20 second testimony. Oh, it's so cool. Okay, so basically the the the simple layout is you say what you were like before Christ, what happened when he changed you, and then like what that means for now. It's like basically like if you're on an elevator with someone. So when our church did this a couple of years ago, and um, so my like the grand story of like my 22nd testimony would be like like uh I was a scared little boy not knowing what the future held for me. But Jesus saved me and gave me confidence that my hope is secure, and now I rest knowing that I'm a child of God for eternity. That's like that.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Elevator conversation. Yeah, it's like so that's like the short testimony. Uh the other day I was the young man with y'all's group that that has his his little podcast. Oh, yeah, yeah. Was we were talking, and not surprisingly, he's a big Bryce Crawford. Thank you, JB. JB's behind the camera, everybody. You guys can't see her today.

SPEAKER_05 10:06

Hello, they can hear me.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

They can hear you, yeah. Which everybody really now likes JB better than me. I love it. Which is that was like the goal in bringing her on. We need to bring, we need to bring youthfulness and and a woman's voice. And now I'm like, people have people come up to me at camp and be like, I love the podcast. Hey, you think I can meet JB? Like, absolutely. Um I'm like, you can't miss her. Her hair is as red and ginger and Auburn fire. Just look for it, you'll see her. But um, yeah, JB has talked about uh this guy, Bryce Crawford. I it's funny, I'm it's kind of oxymoronic. I don't, I'm not a social media person. I don't I watch I watch about four guys that are backcountry hunters, and that's about it. Yeah, you know, yeah, I don't watch fitness influencers, I don't watch Christian now. I although I'm I am right now on a tear watching and listening to John Lennox. I think people are feeling the urgency because of his his the like the the hourglass of his life.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

I think people are saying, okay, and he's like everybody's bringing him on, including these secular guys. We've heard him live. Really? Oh yeah, I've heard him live twice. As a G he was le just lecturing, and I wouldn't heard him. Took him, loaded up a van, took a bunch of other people. But um Where was he lecturing at? At the Fox Theater in Atlanta. Cool. Yeah. And he had just come off of a debate where he whipped the socks off of Richard Dawkins, wore him out, made him look like a silly, oh my gosh. And he's so gentle and grandfatherly and sweet, you know, and just grinning. And he's yeah, he's a you know, an Oxford or Cambridge mathematician, and he just drops bombs on people. Um, but yeah, so I listen to stuff like that, but I need to do a better job of of figuring out what's going on in social media world because kids keep up with the stuff and they'll ask me. And I'm like, so so this kid, Jacob, Jacob, uh, right, Chris? Jacob the other day. Yeah, Jacob Kuhn was asking me about Bryce Crawford. I was like, man, I can't speak to it, you know, because I don't. So I I left there and I was like, all right, I'm gonna check this guy out. Which obviously I'm a Neanderthal because everybody knows who he is. But I went and he's interviewing this female. She's a pastor, she's wearing a robe and she's got a thing, and she just looked goofy, you know. She's like got a rainbow flag behind her. Just it's a it's just goofy. It's like she's clearly, you know, she's not Team Jesus or whatever they want to, how you know, she's not, she's for this. She's making a statement. She's making a statement. She's got so much rainbow stuff in the flag. And she says to this kid or this young man that's interviewing her, she says, Um, Jesus never mentions homosexuality, and the Bible only brings it up seven times. And I'm like, that is a low view of scripture when you say the Bible only says something one time, seven times, whatever. And the thing I appreciate about men that have finished their race like John MacArthur is I guys like that gave me a love for the word of God, but not just a love for it, but you're talking about your dad reading John and getting saved. I believe I genuinely believe with all my heart, if someone will open their heart to the truth of Scripture, Jesus is having that conversation with Pilate. And Pilate says, like, what is truth? And Jesus said, Everyone who's seeking the truth is gonna hear me.

unknown 13:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

If someone is opening their heart and saying, Okay, Lord, Romans 1, where it says, He's revealed enough to everyone that no one has an excuse, at that point, someone opens their heart. It's so simple. Someone opens their heart and God's gonna reveal himself to them. And if someone will open the word of God and say, God, speak to me, I don't know if you're real, I don't know if you're there, but I'm willing to hear, I believe God will save that person through the power of his word. And um, I'm so thankful for that. And we don't have to be creative or catchy or I don't know if you noticed, we've started just adding scripture reading that's connected to the sermon text in our worship. And the response has been phenomenal.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

For our listeners, we just like when we're the second worship set after the sermon, just while we're singing, there'll be a pause and somebody walks up to the microphone and just reads scripture. And it'll be scripture that's supporting or was was woven into the sermon text and just power in the word of God, man. I believe that with all my heart. I believe so much in the authority and power and sufficiency of scripture. And 90% of Christians, 90%, I don't think that's like a doomsday mindset. I think realistically, 90% of Christians do not have a relationship with the word of God on a on an active daily basis based on what we see. You know, a small sample size, but 12, 13,000 people a year come through here and I'll speak to another 20 or 30,000 outside of here. And I think that's the biggest thing. I'll have a relationship with the scripture on a daily basis. But people that do, it is continually life-changing for them. So guy ends up. So were you when your dad's in seminary in California, you're growing up there or was he already done? No, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 15:22

He was there was um, he was kind of on a rotation. There was three guys in seminary, and the the church that he ended up pastoring was because you know, he he liked the country, so he wanted to move back out. But um, so they would kind of rotate every third week preaching. And so the pastor called him and he said the church called him and he said, Nah, I don't, I don't stay here. And uh, but then that that's what the Lord had. So we yeah, ever since I was, you know, five or six all the way

Homeschooling In A Big Family

SPEAKER_05 15:46

till college. And you're in a lot of kids. Oh yeah, yeah, I'm number three of eleven. Three of eleven. That's back when uh that's why I like that you always think up for homeschoolers, yeah, buddy. Oh yeah, because that was before homeschooling was really prolific. Oh, yeah, we were out there. We were out there, especially in California. Oh, yeah. I mean, there was no, I mean, we had my parents had to register like uh as a Christian school, and people would call our home phone wanting to join. Hey, is this is this lamp and light Christian school?

SPEAKER_02 16:14

It's like, yeah, it's our family. That's funny. I've spoken at two homeschool graduations, each had one student. Oh, it was the family was like, hey, well, you we're gonna do a full-owned baccalaureate and graduation ceremony and all that stuff, and it was fun. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:31

But the what we were what we were talking about, and you could probably speak to this, is what I loved about it was um, okay, how much extra time you had. And that kind of plays into my story of going into medicine because uh my mom would send us to the local Christian school to do um take tests to make sure that we were on track and so that you know no one could say boo about our education. And I'll never forget we had like a social science um test. It was like you know, 50-minute test at the local Christian school. 20 minutes I was done. And I was like, hey, can I go play? I want to play Foursquare. And the teacher is like, uh what do you know? What do you mean you're you gotta wait, wait for everybody else? What is this? Waiting for everybody else? I was like, I want to go play Foursquare. It's like you're gonna read a book. It's like this stinks. So I loved homeschooling. I mean, it probably played into my impatience with other people, you know, which is God's working on me. But so that provided, you know, other opportunities. Um, and so I don't know, you don't like waiting either, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yeah, no wasted time.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

No, Adam 16 graduated.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah, I wasn't I didn't graduate at 16, but it was like you get all your stuff done so much sooner at 14. I was my dad ran a business, so I was making money, learning how to work, which I'm very thankful for now. Uh yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

What time would you finish your schooling in the morning?

SPEAKER_01 17:56

I think most of the days I was done by 10 o'clock.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

To go work.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

So it's you didn't graduate at 16, but you came to work here at 17.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

So you were Yeah, I had just I had just graduated and then came to camp that year. So that was 2015. Yeah. I don't know if you remember this, but Oh, I remember. You tell. At the Salad? Yeah. Yeah. We came, the church I grew up in came to camp for a long time. And I had wanted to work at camp since I first came when I was 11 years old. And so we're at uh the Pure and Holy Conference, which we do in February. We came every year, and it's lunchtime, and I go to get a salad, and he's getting salad next to me. And I don't know. I think you maybe started the conversation and said, Hey man, when are you gonna just come work here? I said, something like, Well, I'd love to work this summer, but I know you got to be a year out of high school, so I'll I'm gonna apply next year. And he said, Well, you can just go and apply, you can work this summer. And I guess I pushed back.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Yeah, you said, Well, I'm not I'm not old enough. I I have to be I you have to you have to be out of high school a year.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

You don't understand. I can't, I'm not allowed to, is basically what I'm saying. And he said, he said, no, that's not how it works. I'm telling you, you can you can come. So why don't you just go and apply? So I did. And never left.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

He'd been here about six months, and I said, Hey, I want you to spend your life here, basically. I was like, hey, man, you're the kind of dude we're looking for. And that that goes back to that point about I tell people all the time, man, because we homeschooled and then went to public school. You know, you've heard that story. We did both. It is it is far and away the most rounded, squared away, mature, socially adapted kids that we have or homeschool kids, which people that send their kids to public school will say, I wouldn't want to homeschool my kid. They won't be socially adjusted. The most socially upside down kids are public school kids. Now, I'm not painting with a broad brush. Kids that love the Lord and are being discipled, it doesn't matter where they're going, you know, healthy families and healthy churches produce healthy young, yeah, young people. But if you're gonna go take the average public school kid at the local public school here, they are not as socially adjusted as 90% of the homeschool kids that come through snowbird. And we get a lot, you know, and um, so anyway, there's a plug for for parents out there. Yeah, um there's there's a lot, there's a lot to that. So you um so you're number three of 11. So you're you're towards the top. What how what's the age gap from you to number 11?

SPEAKER_05 20:44

Let's see, my little brother John, because we're every basically every two years.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Okay, that's my wife calls that getting bread on the full heat. She's like, I mean, we got married, we were working with horses and cows, and she's like, I don't know, let's have five or six kids, just do it, we'll just roll it, roll through. Just get bread on the full heat. That's so funny.

SPEAKER_05 21:07

Yeah, because when I was when you're talking about like not being able to graduate, my mom wanted me to take Spanish, and you know, she's couldn't teach me Spanish, so she told me to go to the community college, and I was like, Oh, I gotta have a high school diploma because I I kind of don't want to go. It's like I'll print you one out this afternoon. It's easy.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

That is too funny.

SPEAKER_05 21:27

Your dad's a principal. I was like, oh, does that? I was like thinking, does that make me like the valedictorian? Like my number one in my class.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Your first and last in your class.

SPEAKER_05 21:38

Yeah, yeah. But the reason the reason it was cool is because it provided me so much extra time. And then that's when I think, I mean, honestly, God started working my um my journey into medicine then because um I mean, I wanted to be like I wanted to be a vet.

Pigeons And Early Entrepreneurship

SPEAKER_05 21:55

And so I was like begging my parents for homing pigeons. It's like I need a pair of homing. Pigeons. Homing pigeons. What's some homing pigeons? They're so cool. They're so cool. You know, they fly like 65, 70 miles an hour, and then like find their way home from coast to coast. You know, they use like the like the magnetic poles of the earth because they put little magnets on the pigeons' wings and they get all confused and can't ever make it home. So they use the magnetic poles of the earth. And then when they get within like like three to five miles, just boom, right back to your house. Beeline. Oh yeah. So I came down Christmas morning when I was like nine years old. I had two pairs of homing pigeons. And I love those birds. They were the best. So what's a nine-year-old do with homing pigeons? Well, um, I well, I bred them. Sometimes they'll even home back to where the eggs were laid. It's the craziest thing. Really? Yeah, it's so cool.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

So the very first um to where the egg they hatched out of.

SPEAKER_05 22:50

Yeah. No, no, to where it was laid. The one that he Yeah, so like an egg is laid, and they'll take that bird somewhere else. And that bird will come back to where the egg was laid. That's crazy. It's so cool. Wow. It's so cool. So the very first homing pigeon uh chick that hatched was pure white. Pure white. And then I got this idea. I was like, you know, homeschoolers are like little entrepreneurs. I was like, hey, I was like, if I breed a whole bunch of these, um, I can let these things go at weddings as you know, white doves. And they'll go to the house. Yeah. So you did that? Yeah. So we started like the Jesse Cotrell breeding program.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Pigeon breeding.

SPEAKER_05 23:31

Pigeon breeding. Now, people don't realize because all I wanted was white birds. I needed like 150, 100, you know, 120, 150 white birds. So I put a pair together. I was like, you know those squares you did in bio, like Mendel? Yeah. So I'd put these birds together and then they would have like um like a black or speckled bird on my bueno. But split them apart. And homing pigeons are monogamous. So they like they mate for life. Split them up, they get all depressed, pull out their feathers.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

Didn't care.

SPEAKER_05 24:04

Did you figure out the the combo that yeah? Yeah. So I had like pedigrees. Okay. I like pedigrees that like uh yeah, same thing. Finish my schoolwork, go hang out with my birds. That's what I was doing. Well, they got a little too inbred, and then I started having chicks where like, you know, instead of the feet being forward, yeah, instead of the feet being forward, they were like facing backwards. Ah. So then I'd break up that couple, they'd get sad. You know, they lost their lifetime partner. They get over it. They pull out their feathers, they'd be sad.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Six weeks later, they're ready to make a really and then you put them in a blended family relationship.

SPEAKER_05 24:47

Yeah. So by the time I was like 12 or 13, like maybe like 11 or 12, I had, I don't know, 100, 150 birds. So I'd take them out to weddings because you got to train them like five miles, 10 miles, 15 miles, 20 miles. So I was doing a wedding once. It was like out in a vineyard. It's like a big Italian wedding. I think this guy'd been married a couple times. It looked like he had done this before. And uh and he said, uh, hey, I'll give you a hundred bucks if you let me shoot one of your birds. You know, because you let them go. And then they they all take off and they make like about maybe seven or ten loops, like getting their bearings, and then bam, back home. Straight back home. And uh, you'll lose a couple along the way, like the dumb ones. You know, they go hang out at Kmart or whatever. Natural selection, yes. Exactly. So I was like, you'll give me a hundred. I was like, you're only gonna shoot one of them. And he's like, Yeah, I'm only gonna shoot one of them, like with my shotgun. It's like I'm a good, I'm a good I'm a good shot. I was like, Yeah, how about it? I was like, I'll breed 12 more tomorrow. I don't care. 100 bucks. Easy money. I was thinking, like, okay, a bag of food's like 20 bucks, like five bags of food. Yeah, I'm styling. I'm styling. So that's what he did. So he came out, and uh they like I let my birds go and they're circling, and one of his groomsmen hands him a shotgun. He takes aim at everyone, people are freaking out. I mean, they're flipping out that he's gonna shoot these birds. Anyway, he shoots, it's a blank, everyone starts laughing. And I'm thinking, like, I better get my hundred bucks. I was ready to sacrifice a bird, but he still gave me the hundred bucks. So it was all a joke. It's all a joke. That's a funny dude. But I went, I went around to all these different bridal shops there in Orange County and dropped off like little uh business cards. And like it's like uh flights of fancy bird releasing, you know, a flock of white doves for your special occasion. It's like if the couple came out and wanted just a pair, I give them, you know, each they each got a bird and let the bird go. And then that was or that was 99 bucks because it was super easy, you know. How old are you doing this? Uh maybe 12, 13. Wow, and then for the whole flock was 350 bucks. Orange County is that like that's LA? LA, yeah, just uh south of LA.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

So there is some rural Orange County, still has some rural areas.

SPEAKER_05 27:05

It used to be. I mean, it used to just be all orange groves, but now it's I mean it's pretty built out. You have to go inland quite a bit. So, but then I realized, like maybe when I was going into middle school, I'm like, these birds are dumb. Like I was trying to teach one to like be a falcon, like land on my wrist. Nope, wasn't happening? Oh, they're dumb. Not in the cards. Not in the cards. I mean, they're good at what God designed them to do, yeah, but otherwise they're dumb. So then I'm like, ah, people are people are way more interesting than birds.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

So, what what's the history of like people would use them to send messages? Like they would take them to the field, world war, yeah. And then send a message knowing they would fly back to base or whatever. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 27:43

And so my friend Alex, we made like this little capsule, and we would hook it to one of my bird's legs and he would take it home. He'd send me messages. We thought we were real cool, like spies. Because when they in the world war, you know, they would see the bird and try to shoot it down, like that guy at that wedding.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

That's wild. So you so you uh you pretty much grow up out there in that LA area, and and is Masters College and Seminary, is it south of LA? Where's that, where's Sun, what's the uh just north, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:13

Sun Valley, yeah, just north. Well, the seminary is more in LA, but the college, because the seminary is right there with uh Grace Community Church. Oh the college, now university, masters university is just north, just north of LA. So maybe about without traffic, like an hour and 20 minutes or so from my parents' house.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

We had a longtime CFO at Snowbird that's a master's grad. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, he'd be older than you because he's he's my age. He's like probably probably graduated in '94. Yeah. Jeff um Cole. Jeff Cole. Yeah, it's a great school. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:51

It's a great school. But my I told my parents though. Oh, what were you gonna say? I'm sorry. No, go ahead. I was gonna say, I told them I wanted to go into medicine, but um, you know, the training pathway is so long, you know, with undergrad and then medical school and then residency and then fellowship if you want to do specialized training. So um, they're like, why don't you go work in a hospital for a year and see like if this actually wanted you because it's so expensive to go through all that schooling. So um I was like, Yeah, I don't know. My dad's like, I found you a hospital. Cool. Where and you know, where is it? It's in Indonesia, Borneo.

Indonesia Medical Mission And 9/11

SPEAKER_05 29:29

So I was like, how long am I gonna stay there? He's like, we're gonna have you go there for a year. And how old are you now? 18?

SPEAKER_02 29:35

17, 17, 17, 18.

SPEAKER_05 29:37

So uh so that's what I did. Yeah. And two weeks before I left, um, I was playing like a slow-pitched softball tournament with our church. And, you know, I'm not trying to slide into second, my foot got caught in the bag and just broke my ankle. So my parents, I didn't hear this until much later, but you know, they always live by faith. And so they said they saw me like crutching onto the airplane. And my dad, he didn't say anything at the time, but he told me later, he's like, they're thinking, like, what are we doing? Like sending him to the other side of the world on crutches. And um, but Adam and I were talking about like God's, you know, little mercies that he shows us. I was getting on the plane, and I mean this never happened. It was like the 353 setup, you know, those big humongos, like the 330 Airbus. Yeah, it was so big. And um, you know, you fly to tok from LA to Tokyo and Tokyo to Kualumpur or wherever. I mean, it's like so long flights. And there was next to me, there was like um four open seats. So I could put my leg up the whole way.

unknown 30:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:38

And then we get to Malaysia waiting for the visa. You ever play that lemmings game? I don't say he played it before. Like where the lemmings go and then they fall off the cliff, and you gotta like you played it right.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

I don't, I've not played that. I've missed maybe I misheard you.

SPEAKER_05 30:53

Yeah. So the lemmings game is like uh, like you, like there's these like kind of like groundhogs, and you kind of like gotta find a way for them to escape, but they're always end up following, falling into the river or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

It's a video game. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:07

And uh I was on the bus in Malaysia and I didn't realize like when you get off a bus in Asia, it's like a mad, it's like a mad dash.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

It's insanity. It's insane. Yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_05 31:16

And I was the lemming at the front.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 31:18

And so you got yeah, on crutches, right off, and then my rebroke my ankle. Wow. It was rough.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

So, what'd you do for that year?

SPEAKER_05 31:31

So, well, I was in Indonesia. So you're helping out in this, like yeah. I was doing like um, well, when my uh cast came off, it was a little better. But I was um I was working with like the community health team. I was like the driver for the community health team. So we go around, and then I would certain certain days I would be in surgery, watching surgery. Sometimes I would be in clinic with the docs. And um just observing, yeah. But then um I think that was one of like one of the lowest like um points in my life. Um was uh, well, there's only two doctors that spoke English, and then my dog, Bill, who I was convinced spoke English, and then we know what happened to him right at him. Yeah, tell that story. Oh my word. Okay, my sister, she overlapped with me like a couple weeks, and this real scraggly little dog had showed up on her doorstep, so she started feeding it, and she was feeding it and feeding it and feeding it, and of course, it's like a Hansel and Gretel sort of thing. So Bill was getting bigger and bigger, you know. And uh, you know, you remember when they were holding out the little bone and the lady was saying if Gretel and Hansel were big enough? Okay. So I went on one of these weekend trips and I came back and Bill wasn't there, my buddy. And um, Oma, who was one of the missionary, the doctor's wives, she's like, So I have some sad news for you, Jesse. I'm like, uh what happened? She said, Bill bit someone. I'm like, I don't think so. Like, I've known Bill here for a couple months. Pretty sure he didn't buy someone. She's like, Oh, he did. She's like, so Lena, uh, she's a housekeeper. She's like, Lena took him home and had him for dinner. I had him for dinner.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

I ate the dog. Eight Bill. Eight Bill. It feels plenty fat.

SPEAKER_05 33:16

Yeah, plenty fat. I was like, mah, I felt personally responsible. Like if I would have just let Bill be scraggly. That's too funny. Could have made it a while longer.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

So it was just he started plumping up and they're like, mm, opportunity.

SPEAKER_05 33:28

Yeah. So I mean, I I was looking, uh I have a lot of emails that I was sending my parents. The one that, the one that the kids like the most was um, my buddy Andre, he was my language tutor. He gave me some rain boots. He's like, okay, you know, the MAF Missionary Aviation Fellowship, the MAF plane drops you off Friday, picks you up Monday. You're gonna be trap around the jungle with vaccinations or whatever. So I'm like, he gave me some rain boots. Like he's like, put these boots on, try them on. They fit, but they there's something in in the boot. I'm like, what? Andre, what is this? He's like, Oh, I put coffee in there to um like soak up the water. So your feet say, Okay, okay, that sounds weird. Anyway, I I didn't start drinking coffee until I was in medical school. So um I was like, I'm gonna put hot chocolate in there. So that's what I did. And then I totally forgot about it. I just completely forgot that I'd put hot chocolate in there. So we're traipsing around, and um, this was a particularly rough trip. I mean, it was just, you know, I mean, it's so hot. I mean, it was so hot. And uh there's some cobra or mamba, you know, we go to the stay in the chief's house every night. Some venomous snake could bit someone like, and they had died like two weeks before. So, like everyone's sleeping inside tonight. There's like zero airflow. So hot, it's so hot. And I'm sitting there, you know, crisscross applesauce, which is not comfortable for me. And I'm just like down in the dumps. Like it's like a Saturday night. I got another day. I'm like, what am I doing? Like, what am I doing with my life? Well, guy, go like, why am I here? You know, and um, like they do when it's you know 100 degrees out with 5,000 humidity, they serve hot water. I'm like, this is the worst. This is the worst. But then I remembered what was in my shoe. So you made some hot chocolate. Uh-huh. So they're talking in Bahasa in Indonesian, and I mean, I wasn't really paying attention to anyone. I was like, you know, in my feelings, and uh just like thinking about life, and then that's a lot of hot water. And so I took off my shoe, and it just, you know, a couple, a couple thumps on the shoe, and a couple clumps of hot chocolate came out. That is hilarious. So I just mixed it up with my finger, but I didn't realize when I took off my shoe, like everyone had started watching what I was doing. And I was in my own little world, you know, like 18-year-old, other side of the world. And so I just mixed it up and then tasted it. I was like, this is the best. You know, like it was just like God. Like it was, I mean, it was I mean, why I put that in there weeks before, I have no idea. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

So you're drinking hot chocolate that for weeks had been under your nasty rock. Oh, I did not care.

SPEAKER_05 36:03

I felt like I was like back home and I'm like, this is awesome. I'm like, this is great. Well, the chief asked the translator, like, what is that guy doing? And so I was like, Oh, I'm drinking hot chocolate. So they're like there's like, you know, when they when the translator says, like, what are you doing? But they've been talking for like two minutes. So you're wondering what they're actually saying. And um, he said, Oh, the chief wants to try it. So, and I had some in my other boot too. So you gave chief some. Gave some, and then and everyone's waiting. Like the whole room, we're all sitting in this room, just sweating. The whole room's waiting. And he just takes a little sip and then he just says, Hot chocolate. That's wild. And everyone starts like it was the best. Anyway, I never ever told him how it happened. I never told him that I'd put hot chocolate in there weeks before.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Just let it be. So when you got back, were you like, okay, because you went first, you went to seminary. You didn't come back and go to med school.

SPEAKER_05 37:05

Well, 9-11 happened. I didn't find out about 9-11 until 9-13. Yeah. Okay. Like two days later, I'm looking at images of the World Trade Center. We had no idea. And they drug out a TV and hooked up some antenna to the radio tower there at the hospital, and everyone was just like huddled around watching the news. And people don't people don't realize how big of a Muslim country Indonesia is. I mean, Bali is Hindu. But so then, you know, I was supposed to be there for the whole year, but after about four months, got evacuated home.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

So then I started looking at colleges. I got a friend named Michael Shipman, and he was an IMB missionary in Indonesia, and he wrote a book called Three Questions. And it's like three questions that you ask a Muslim to engage. And it became this was he wrote that in probably 2003, four, five, somewhere in there. But it became like the IMB used that for a long time for people that were going to go into a Muslim country. But yeah, Mike spent his whole career in Indonesia. Wow. And I remember praying for him about this, would have been probably late 2000s. I got a text from someone in my family that said, hey, Mike's been incarcerated. They've beat him, they're beating him up. And it was a pretty big ordeal. But he stayed there. I mean, that dude's he did a career with the IMB 20-some years in Indonesia. Yeah, very Muslim. So you come home.

SPEAKER_05 38:32

Come home, applied for college. And um, I was either like um, I did like I did a I play violin in the OLA, so I did like an audition at UCLA and uh and at Masters. Those are like the only two schools I applied to. And um, and then I heard like the organic chemistry class at UCLA, you know, has 350 people, you know, taught by a grad student. Yeah. And masters is like, you know, eight people taught by a PhD. And so I was like, I'm gonna go to Masters. Heck yeah. Yeah. It was great. Yeah, the science program there. And then the best part about it is then that's where I met my wife.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

So she was in school there. Where was she from? San Diego. Okay, so she was also Yeah, her and John uh Rullo.

unknown 39:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:16

John was telling me about I don't know, someone tried to steal his car in Escondito or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

He was telling me some wild story about and close would be close to the same age. Yeah. He might be a little, he's probably a little older. Yeah, we were swapping crazy San Diego school. So um you're in school for you're doing chemistry, you're pre-med pre-med. Pre-med, yeah. Okay, yeah, pre-med.

SPEAKER_05 39:40

And I've and I, I mean, and I thought at this point, like I I mean, I'm I thought that I was gonna be like a missionary doctor, like, you know, go back overseas. And um, like that's kind of what I had in my mind that I was gonna serve overseas. And then where did you go to med school after that?

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Did you go straight to med school?

SPEAKER_05 39:57

Well, no, what happened was um because masters was so small, you know, like OCEM was at the same time as Hebrew.

Seminary Before Med School

SPEAKER_05 40:05

And my lab for physics was at the same time as Greek. Because, you know, the courses the courses offer like one time. So I had some, I got some really good advice about um if you want to go to seminary, like now is the time to do it. So um I had a I had a New Testament professor that said, um, it's a little extreme, but he's a New Testament professor. He said, not reading the Bible in the original languages is like kissing your bride through a veil. Pretty intense. I'm like, okay, I think the Holy Spirit can overcome, you know, going a Greek or whatever, but I I I understand. I appreciate the sentiment. I understand the sentiment. So um, yeah, so I got so we got married. Jenny and I got married. And uh, I mean, I know everyone thinks their wife is the best, but she's the best. She's the best. So uh just like so faithful, so steadfast. As far as like right from wrong, she's like one of the most godly, godly people I've ever met. Um, that verse, and I think it's it's Proverbs 31, but it's verse 12 where it says, Um, she does him no harm all of her days. Yeah, like that's Jenny, like to a T. 20 years, she's never done no harm. That's so good. So she was working and I went to seminary and did two years of seminary. Took Hebrew and Greek. It was awesome. While she when she was working to put me through school, and then after that, med school.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

So uh what I mean, you're finishing up seminary and you're like, I still want to be a doctor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but you're thinking missionary doctor, so I need seminary plus med school was kind of the thing. That's kind of that's what I was thinking, yeah. Huh. That's cool.

SPEAKER_05 41:44

So we're gonna- And it was really good advice to go to the yeah, because the pipeline is so like you do this and then you do this, and you do this. I mean, I got some, um, I had some pretty rough interviews, you know, when I was applying for medical school because it was such like a non-traditional path. I mean, I don't know if I don't know of a lot of other people that you know are a medical doctor and went to seminary. I'm not saying I'm special, I'm just saying it's not any because normally, you know, you go undergrad and med school residency. And so, um, yeah, so I started medical school and we had our first Ellie, who's uh actually leaving for Indonesia tonight. Oh wow. So Ellie, she's she's us going into her senior year, and Savannah were both born during uh my first and second years of medical school. Where where was that at? We I went, I started my first two years over in the Caribbean, St. Martin.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 42:32

So they were born in St. Martin. We lived over in St. Martin for two years, which is pretty cool. And that's where you're going to med school. First two years. And then I did my third and fourth years at like a UCLA affiliated hospital, Kern County Medical Center.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

In California.

unknown 42:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:46

So total time, how much medal school medical school did you do? You do so you do four years. Yeah. So the first two years is like all classroom. And then the third and fourth years are um like you go through the, like you do like four weeks of um, like four weeks of in the emergency room, you know, six weeks in internal medicine. Basically, you rotate through every specialty to kind of the goal, the idea is to get you a broad education and so that you can figure out what you want to do with your life, like what kind of doctor you want to be. Um I was thinking, are you gonna hear a fight story from the emergency room? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

So there's uh I want to hear a funny one, and I want to hear a crazy gunshot, knife stab, some crazy.

SPEAKER_05 43:26

Oh, this is a pretty good one. This may this may satisfy both.

ER CPR And Dead In Sin

SPEAKER_05 43:29

Okay, perfect. So I was in the emergency room, and they're like, we got a guy coming in, and he was uh they think he overdosed and he was in the he was in the park. And uh so I knew, and so the emergency doctor like looked at me and my buddy, like, hey, you guys are up, you guys are gonna do CPR CPR on this guy. Okay, sounds good. So they brought him in and we started doing CPR, and this guy's core body temperature is like 92, 93. I mean, he's cold. He's cold. So we're doing CPR and doing CPR and doing CPR, and it's like Been like an hour, hour and a half. An hour. Yeah, we're still doing CPR. I'm like, what? So while my buddy, and we're switching out because if you, yeah, if you do high quality like chest compressions, like it takes it out of you. Like it's like a CrossFit workout, basically. So I finally I just asked the, you know, you're like a third-year medical student, like you're, you know, you're scared of everything. Like, I so I asked the emergency room doctor, I'm like, how long are we gonna do CPR for on this guy? He's like, Well, we got a rule here in the emergency room. You're not dead until you're warm and dead. Whoa. So, because there's this cool medical phenomenon where sometimes you get up to a certain body temperature, you know, you get to 96 or 97, and they'll just wake up.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Dang.

SPEAKER_05 44:41

Really? Yeah. So we're just going at it. Going at it. And the reason I thought about this story a couple weeks ago, I was talking with the youth kids. Uh, we were we were doing um singing some worship songs, and uh, and the what the verse that came to mind was um when it says that we're dead in our trespasses. And so we were talking, I was talking to the youth kids about like it's not like you were swimming in an ocean, you know, or you were drowning and God like threw you a life raft. Like you were dead, like dead, dead. Like this guy that came into the emergency room, he was not gonna be revived by medicine or an A D. Like nothing was bringing this guy back short of like a miracle. And I was sharing that with the youth kids. Like when it says we are dead in our trespasses, like that's like dead. Dead. And so that's why I was telling them this story. I was, you know, like you guys want to hear the gory details? They're like, bring it on.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:41

So we're doing C PR on this guy. Anyway, he was dead. If anyone, if anyone's wondering, he was dead, dead.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

That's uh that that's Ephesians 2. And Ephesians 2 uh really formed my early theology, my soteriology of salvation when he said, You were dead in your trespasses and sin, but God, being rich in mercy, made us alive together with Christ. That, and I and I was studying through Romans and I got into Romans 6, where he talks about being buried, united with Christ in his death and then raised with him, united with him in his resurrection. That's when I I think I began to think theologically I had no role in coming to Christ. He quickened me, he awakened me. It was a literal spiritual resurrection. You cannot get away from that in scripture.

SPEAKER_05 46:37

And yeah, dead is dead.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Dead is dead. When you were dead in your trespasses and sin, God made us alive together with Christ.

SPEAKER_05 46:46

And the bottom of the ocean, dead, weight of the water crushing down on you. Yep. Out bottom of the Mariana trench.

SPEAKER_02 46:55

And I heard one guy say, and I swam to get there. I swam into my death, getting away from the life preserver. He was like, I swam, I and then I'm dead, and I did everything I could to get dead if I did anything. You know, I was like, oh man, that's a different layer. That guy was trying to get colder. Yeah, trying to get colder. How dead can I get? But man, a person who that's such a powerful picture of what it is to be made alive by Christ, because um that's it. That's

Why Obstetrics Became The Calling

SPEAKER_02 47:28

it.

SPEAKER_05 47:28

So I started these rotations and and I told my wife, like anything but OBGYN, which I mean, God.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Yep, that's that's right. Wrong thing to say.

SPEAKER_05 47:41

And then there was, I mean, there was reasons for that. You know, it's like I'm a guy. Yeah, you know, it's uh, you know, especially the you know, I mean, back in the day it was like all OBGYans were males. And then now it's like, you know, 97, 98% are female. And I get that. I understand it. There's been a lot of you know, abuse and bad things that happened. Um, not that it can't happen with females, but I get that. And um, but you know, I'm an I'm like an eternal optimist. And so when I was doing my rotations, I'm like, oh, okay, I can do CPR and this guy, you know, or taking care of people on ICU. But when I got up to the labor and delivery floor, like, this is this place, like a day, first day into it, second day into it. I'm like, this is awesome. It's the happiest place in the hospital. It's the only place people want to be admitted. Like they come in, like, hey, yeah, you're in labor. Let's get you going. They're like, yes, call on the family. It's the best.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Break out the cigars. It's the best.

SPEAKER_05 48:34

It's like the only time when you're taking care of like two patients at the same time. Oh, we got we got a set of triplets right now. I got four patients, one body. Well, four bodies, but right. Yeah. So it's the best. It was the best. I'm like, this is for me. I was like, I can be happy at work. You know, occasionally it's tragic, but I can be happy at work. And uh, it's the best. Like it's every time a baby is born. Like, this is awesome. You know, when they when they first come out. I mean, you saw your kids, they're like, Yeah, everything's squinted and smashed and everything's loud, everything's bright, everyone's poking them. You know, they're thinking, like, this is the worst.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

Yeah, I want to go back.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Go back there.

unknown 49:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

So that's telling them how big your boys were.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

They throw big babies.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

His wife gets that. Toddlers.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

They throw toddlers.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Yeah, I told him throw those toddlers. The one nurse, when Billy came out, the one nurse said, Golly, get that boy a cigarette.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

He looks like a three-month-old. He came out and said, I'll take my eggs over easy. Yeah. That's funny.

SPEAKER_05 49:40

So residency. So after medical school, then uh you do residency, which is like uh training. So when we were when we talk about like a resin, like they're a doctor, but they haven't done their training. So, like if you want to do family medicine, you know, it's three years, pediatrics is three years of residency, OBGY's four, surgeries five, neurosurgery is seven. So that's how long like the training pathway is.

SPEAKER_02 50:05

So I mean residency is rough. So seven years, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:09

And they have a they put a cap like like an 80-hour work week, you know, but that's like when you're like scheduled to be there. It's a lot, like it's a lot of hours. So my wife, like, I mean, she was carrying the load because we had two kids, and then we had two more kids in residency. So she was just faithful, really faithful. So, how did you end up doing that in West Virginia?

Residency Ethics And Not Backing Down

SPEAKER_05 50:33

Okay, so um oh yeah, yeah, because I'm in Southern California. So I applied like all over the place. I mean, I did a lot of interviews everywhere from New York to California. And um I knew that I wasn't well, I'll say this. Part of my struggle with doing OB was there like certain issues like abortion, um, that um I didn't want to like birth control can be pretty controversial, uh, that I kind of just didn't want to deal with. And um I didn't hear an audible voice, but basically I got a wake-up call from God just saying don't be a pansy. Like don't be a wimp. Like if not, if not you, then who? And it's just really convicting. Like, really convicting. So, because I loved because it was I loved it. Like the only reason for me not to do it would because I was being a pansy. You know, I like there was a guy that's like, I got a problem. And a guy's like, What's your problem? He's like, I got a big yellow streak up my back. I mean, so that's so when I interviewed at West Virginia, I mean, they had like a night float system where um like a month a year, basically a month a year, you'd work 5 p.m. to 7 a.m. And otherwise it was kind of just shift work. So it seemed like a little bit more conducive to family life. But most importantly, like the hospitals, the hospital that um I was gonna do residency at didn't do abortions. So that was you know really which to me didn't seem like kind of like having done my training in California, which granted that was a county hospital, so they didn't either. So um, just the fact that the chair of the department was really cool. Um, I was gonna get a really good education. They didn't do abortions, it fit well with the family life. I mean, I had never heard of Marshall University, but one of my mentors in med school was like, hey, you should apply to Marshall. I was like, never heard of it. Like, ah, yeah, you should do it. I was like, where is this West Virginia? So so that's how we end, that's how I ended up in West Virginia. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

Does okay, seven years? So you go to undergrad four years, two years of seminary, get your master's degree, theological degree, then you've got seven more years to count everything. Eight, because it's four, because four years of med school. Four years of med school.

SPEAKER_05 52:47

And then four years of residency. And and are you when do you start getting paid? Residency. Like in residency, like I mean, you can look it up on the website. Like I think you start at like 47. But you're no longer having to pay a bunch of money out of pocket. Yeah, but you got you know, usually, you know, you're defending a couple hundred thousand, yeah. A couple hundred yeah, a couple hundred thousand dollars in loans.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Yeah. So you do residency for two or four four years. And what's fellowship?

SPEAKER_05 53:13

So fellowship, so well, let me say this about residency, because I think I tell my kids this quite often. Um and we were talking about it before. I had I had a couple jobs growing up, and um I tell I was thinking about the fact that God never wastes anything. And I had a job. Um, well, this is actually kind of a messed up story. I had a job laying heavy pipe, like construction. And um, I got the job because of what something my brother did. Um, you want me to tell you? It's got a okay. My brother came home from college. He was on an RTC scholarship, he's 18, I'm 16. And my dad told me, yeah, he got to get a job. Like a week went by. I mean, we were like having fun at the beach hanging out summer, Southern California. And um, he's like, gotta get a job. And so my brother, I don't know exactly if because he was trying to be funny or what, he got a job at Mr. Keggs delivering beer kegs. So he was telling my dad about how awesome this job was at dinner one night, you know, because when he shows up, everyone's so happy to see him. Oh yeah. And then when he gets the keg guy, he gets to drive his truck around it says Mr. Keggs. And then when when he picks it up, it's super light because there's nothing left in it. That is funny. Well, apparently this was not acceptable for a pastor's kid to be working at Mr. Keggs. So that's this happened on like a Friday or Saturday or something like that. Like, and then Sunday morning he talked with a guy that owned a construction company at our church, like 50 to 70 employees laying heavy pipe, like sewer lines, things like that. And then Sunday night he's like, Hey, I got I got you both a job. I was like, What did I do?

SPEAKER_02 54:58

It's like I didn't do I just want to hang out with my pigeons.

SPEAKER_05 55:03

I was like, This is messed up.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

You go lay pipe.

SPEAKER_05 55:05

Super messed up. I'm going to lay pipe, which basically meant, um, yeah, I thought it was super messed up. They got us both a job because of my brother working at Mr. Keggs. So, but which basically meant I just got cussed out in Spanish all day long. Well, and had to dig a bunch. Oh my word. Fill sandbags. I accidentally dropped a sandbag on on like down into one of these uh we were putting in a sewer, and it like almost hit the guy, and he just cussed me out. Like, because they had knew that I wanted to like become a doctor, like you're an idiot, basically, and not so many kind words, different words, different words. You're an idiot, you'll never be a doctor. It's pointless for you to go back to school just every day, every day, just getting cussed at. That's funny. And then, you know, I was waiting tables when my wife and I had our first budget meeting. I was like, oh man, I gotta get a job, like making some more money. And so I started waiting tables. But what I think was when I was thinking about that, um, when I was thinking about my story and how it was cool because in residency, sometimes to make a point, you'll have your the doctors that are in charge of you called your attendings. Like, I remember one day something happened. I didn't even really, it wasn't really my fault, but this guy was wanted decided to take it out on me. So he's just laying into me, just cussing me up and down. And and I just like partway through of his, you know, crashing out. I was like, bro, I like I was like, I understand what you're trying to do, like, but just tell me if you want me to do something different. Because that job work in construction, like you're not as good at it. You are not as good at cussing someone out as these guys I worked with. Like you are not. So just tell me if you want me to do something different. So and then waiting tables was great because you know, people complain about you know, my chicken pot pie is too hot. Well, just let it sit there for a minute, but you can't say that. You know, I got a wife wanting me to make some tips. So just let it, you know, okay, let me go put it in the walk-in free for a minute. So I think those, and that's what was making me think about that that God doesn't waste anything. Like there's there's no experience in your life. Like you may think it's pointless at the time, but like you'll use it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like he'll use it. My dad told me that joblang pipe was gonna build character. I mean, basically, it just made us tired and want to go to bed all summer. Yeah. Yeah. But he was right. Yeah. I mean, get getting cussed out, and you know, it just prepared me for like real life.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

And it builds character and it and it gives you some motivation. My dad didn't know. Oh, I couldn't wait to go back to school. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:44

I could not wait to go back to school. After getting cussed out all day long, like filling sandbags, like we would move sandbags from here to there when we could have just put them in loader, the backhoe. I think they just wanted to watch me walk back and forth all day long. And then they're trying to get me to eat jalapenos at lunch, knowing it's gonna tear up my stomach.

SPEAKER_02 58:02

It's just a mess. There's this old guy, he died about two years ago. His name's Garnett, and he's he was like 91. But he told me one time. So Garnet's 91. He died in 24. So he's born in 33. And when he was born in 1933, his dad was 67. So I would we would talk to I loved just sitting and listening to Garnet because he's telling first-person stories that his dad had told him about living in the Civil War era. And Garnet went, he went, uh, he got drafted and went to Korea. But he said when he was growing up, he had he grew up on a farm in Kentucky. And he would every year he had about a five-acre block of corn he was responsible for. And he had to, he had to start to finish that that was his cornfield, and he didn't have much equipment. He said he went to Cree and came back, and his dad had a bunch of corn he had bought for the grain bins, silage. He bought it at the co-op. Garnet's like, because this was silage corn for feeding cows. And he said, What what's what's up with the corn? Where's the cornfield? And he said, I just buy it from the co-op since you left. And he's like, Why'd I have to why'd we grow that corn when I was here? And he said, I wasn't growing corn, I was growing a man. Oh, good one. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He said, I he said, I could have bought that corn at the co-op when you were growing up, but that wouldn't have done you any good.

SPEAKER_05 59:37

We need dads like that. We were supposed to rotate chores like every year, and and I was the mopping guy in like seventh or eighth grade. And we didn't have a mop. It was like Cinderella style, you know, like hands and knees mopping the floor. And and then I could just complain about it nonstop. I couldn't wait for the year to be over. Oh, guess what? I had next year: mopping. And I was like, okay, maybe I I could I couldn't help myself though, just still complain about it. The next year, mopping. Mopping some more. So by this point, I'm like a junior in high school. I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna complain at all. I'm not gonna say one word for the whole year about mopping. So like the year ends, I'm like, this is great. And my dad's like, you're just getting good at it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

Mopp some more.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:18

It's like I had it for like five years.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

It's funny. Good stuff, character building. So you get to you land at Marshall.

High-Risk Fellowship And A Costly Choice

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

I'd like to pivot into you know, Adam and I. The way this came about is you and Adam had a conversation the other night, and then me and Adam were hanging out afterwards. He's like, Man, I just talked to Jesse, and it was so encouraging. Um, and I think what was so encouraging to you was just the ministry focus in that line of work.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:48

Yeah. Cause I don't remember if you said it, but you're the only patients you work with are high risk. Is that right?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:56

Yeah. So after residency, like if you want to do, like if you want to just take care of if you just want to take care of cancer patients or you want to do like um pediatric and adolescent gynecology, like there's then you do fellowship. So yeah. So then we went down to Mississippi for three more years just for fellowship. Yeah, so just high risk pregnancies, which means like um moms, you know, with hypertension, like high blood pressure or diabetes, okay, or you know, heart failure. And then babies that also are like similarly like struggling, like have issues like birth defects. So that's yeah, that's all I do now. It's just high-risk pregnancies.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

Man, yeah, it was so encouraging to me because probably every patient you're dealing with is hurting or terrified or anxious, you know, at best. Yeah. And you're just giving them the gospel. I mean, can you talk about some of that or some of those interactions?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:51

Yeah, I think, and there's actually um, there was actually a patient that like really like nailed this home for me when I was in fellowship. So this was a lady who um, you know, was told that she couldn't get pregnant, but she did. And she had some, and because she had uh major heart issues, like major, major heart issues. And she had some kids that were older, and um, and of course, and she was married, she had her husband. And so I went in and talked to her, and she was, I don't know, maybe 12 or 13 weeks, like just right, finishing the first trimester. And uh, you know, we had run all the numbers based on her heart function. And I told her, you know, there's about um like about a 60 or 65, 70 percent chance that you're not gonna make it through this pregnancy. And um, and so, and I I talked with, you know, my father and a lot of people about um this, I mean, this may be a whole separate conversation, but like, um, is it wrong to give tell people what their options are? Because that's what I did. You know, I told her, these are your options. Like, you can continue the pregnancy, you know, there's about 30% chance or so it's gonna go fine. There's a 70% chance you're gonna die. You know, most people are gonna say that you should have a termination, have an abortion, you know, because of the risk to you. And so I just kind of laid out, laid out all the options for, like based on the risks and things like that. And um, and at this point, I mean, we hadn't been talking that long, you know, I'd done the ultrasound in maybe 20 minutes or so, and she sat there, I'll never forget it. She sat there and she thought about it for a second, and she said, I could never go into eternity and face God, knowing that I had killed my baby. Wow. So um I was thinking, wow. She said, Okay, you know, maybe I'll live another 40 years. She's like, what does that compare with eternity? Dang.

unknown 1:03:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:50

And um, so I told her, okay, well, let's okay, let's let it ride. And if you know, if you start to get in trouble, then we'll deliver you. You know, if there's um, but I said, I told her, like, if we if you start to get in trouble, it may very well be too late. She said, you know, and so yeah, about four or five weeks later, she started to get into trouble. And uh she was the baby wasn't viable yet, so she passed away. Her baby passed away. The mom and the baby. Yeah. And it was just, you know, so sad, so tragic, you know, with the other kids and her husband. But it what it really made me think of was like when we think of being martyred for your faith, we usually think of someone else doing it to you. But yes, as tragic as it was, what an incredible example for her family of dying for your faith. Yeah. And just uh like no compromise. Like, how can 40 years compare with eternity? And yes, the the kids don't have their mom, and the husband doesn't have his wife, but what a testimony. Like my mom died for her faith.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

Yeah, that's right. Those kids are gonna grow up knowing that. And and she was ushered into the presence of Jesus with her child. That's right. Yeah. With her child.

Miscarriage Hope And Babies In Heaven

SPEAKER_02 1:05:14

Because I, you know, you mentioned the the MacArthur book earlier about what happens to babies when they die. That's a that's a real common question when we get here. And I did it, I did an episode, I think it was before JB was with me. Uh I did an episode and had multiple parents reach out who had lost their children and said it gave them so much hope because we approached that episode by saying, I don't want to inform this topic from our sentimentality or you know, what we hope to be true. I want to, you know, when when Paul's speaking to the Corinthians about the gospel, just the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15, he says, I would not have you to be uninformed, brothers. Like there's no reason to be uninformed. We have the answers we need in scripture for the the things. That matter most in life, and so here's where theologically and biblically you can rest in in the hope that your child is with the Lord, and so to think that her and her baby entered yeah entered glory together, yeah, that's pretty powerful.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:16

Um this isn't in the Bible, so don't quote me. But I was with a missionary once, and he was telling me, Well, Jesus can't come back yet because you know, every tribe, tongue, and nation hasn't been reached. Oh, I know where you're going with this. Yeah. And I so I asked him, and I hadn't really thought it through, you know, um, like what about the tribes or tongues or nations that have um like already like they're already eliminated? Like that tribe, tongue, or nation doesn't exist anymore. The Edomites, the Moabites. You know what I'm saying? Yes, say it. So like about we know that basically about 20% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Um because of the fall, which I'm sure we'll talk about here in a second, and uh sin, and you know. Um, and so yeah, I was like that dawned on me later, like, yeah, 20%. Every tribe, tongue, and nation, there's never been a tribe, tongue, or nation where someone didn't get pregnant. And so um, I think it's a very strong case for um yeah, babies in heaven. Every single nation is gonna be represented in heaven.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:25

I believe that. Yeah, I totally believe that. It's it is man, to hear you say that as an OBGYN who's also theologically trained at a sound reformed perspective. It is very I am I am in my mid-50s and I've thought this for 20 years, but I've never really bounced it off anybody with I mean, I've talked to other pastors and you know, our guys, we've talked about it, but like, is it not possible in the the scenes at the throne room, those scenes in Revelation at the throne, because people get caught up in the study of Revelation, it's about this image and that uh symbol and this period of time. And it's like, no, 15 of the 22 chapters, the centerpiece to the chapter is the throne of Christ. That's what Revelation's about. It's about worship and exaltation and Christ in his rightful position for all of eternity. And you see people from every tribe, nation, language around the throne. And I've always thought that because someone would say, We still have to reach tribes, and you're right. What about the tribes that didn't get reached, that are now no longer they're they're absorbed or extinct, or are they gonna be represented? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:47

It's like, well, then you know, if you want to give them more reform, like, well then why do we witness? Because we're commanded to.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:53

Because we're commanded to.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:54

Because we're obeying.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:55

Yeah. Yeah, because the Lord might use you. It's always right to be obedient. We have this saying here that that I really push with our people here, and it's it goes back to years ago, early summer days, and a guy says to me, How many decisions did y'all have out there this summer? I'm like, I said, Well, we had at this time, say we had 300 kids a week. We were less than half the size we are now by volume. 300 kids a week, nine worship services. So they heard nine sermons. So now we're at 2,700 decisions. Because every time they hear the word of God, they gotta make a decision what they're gonna do with it. Love it. Like, that's where free will gets gets wild, man. Like, what are you gonna do? How are you gonna do how you gonna respond to this? I said, so 2,700 decisions a week times 10 weeks. We had 27,000 decisions, and he said, How many kids came to camp? And I said, 3,000. He's like, dang, I don't know. I'm trying to figure those numbers out.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:57

And I'm like, well, I'm just Baptist enough that you should be able to but I had a seminary prop that did like the Calvinism and Arminiism scoreboard, and that's how he would open up class. I maybe it was Theo III, I can't remember which one it was. Anyway, it was great. So funny great discussions. How does it work?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:17

I don't know. I don't know. Or the mystery. Yeah, we're so puny compared to God. Yeah, yeah. So we proclaim the gospel and some people respond to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:29

And I don't know how that works, but God does. Yeah. But I believe that I believe that there is solid theological footing, biblical foundational footing, that that those babies that die in the womb in utero or that that that die before an age of understanding. Like when Jesus is uh we talk a lot about in John 9, the man that's born blind, and they come up to Jesus and they're like, Who's sinned? Him or his parents that he's born blind for 40 years or whatever. And he's like, He said, No, but that the works of the Father might be fulfilled in him. And they're like, Jesus presses them and says, You're the blind ones. And they say, Oh, you're the sit, you're sons of Abraham. Yeah. You're the blind ones because you've missed it. And they go, Oh, you're gonna say that that we're blind, and he's like, Oh no, you're and he uses this spiritual analogy of I'm talking about spiritual blindness. You're held accountable for yourselves because you can see and understand. And and there's this evidence there that he Jesus, uh, to me, it's very clear that he's saying someone that can be held responsible for what they do with what's been revealed to them, yeah, that's where accountability is. Romans one. Yeah. Without excuses. Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:50

Yeah. And you have patients too that make really sweet. So after we have this conversation. Now, granted, I mean, I can, it was the same thing when COVID was going on. Like, I can't speak to what's going on in like the rest of the United States, and we can talk about a lot, like, you know, the OBGYN community in general. But like I had a patient I had this conversation, and um, their baby had like a lethal birth defect. You know, she was 20 weeks or so and the baby was gonna pass away, barring a miracle, you know, at the time of delivery. And um I saw them when they were like 34 or 35 weeks, and we were setting up some um like a delivery, like delivery timing um, because she wanted to spend a couple moments with her baby um right after delivery before the baby passed away. And um I was just talking, like, what do you guys do? Or what you know, what have you been up to? Or how we've been like, we took a trip to Disney World.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:35

With her in Utero.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:37

Wow. The baby to Disney World. Like, that is so sweet. That's so cool. That is so so cool.

Foster Care And Adoption Disrupt Everything

unknown 1:12:44

Man.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:45

And our church, the reason it's like the going down to Mississippi was important for us too, because we got plugged in with like a local church down there, and the church did an amazing job of um like supporting families that were doing foster care. And um, they even like, I don't know if it was through the church or through CPS, they even because we just figured we couldn't do it because of my schedule. And Jenny's wrangling four kids at home, and you know, I'm working these crazy hours. It was a little bit better during fellowship, but they're like, okay, you can get all your training for foster care, CPS, done in one weekend, like a Friday night, all day Saturday, and then you're getting then you can get certified. And um, so we signed up for, and then we started doing foster care, and that's what we were talking about. We started I went to go ask him about playing keyboard because I work with a youth band at church, and then an hour later, I'm like super encouraged that we're talking about our sons. It was awesome. Yep. So we got plugged in with foster care down there in Mississippi.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:44

But um can you talk about at some point the how that's given you credibility with coworkers that are not believers? That that was a cool point.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:56

Yeah, and that's totally like that's just God being sovereign because that was not intentional. Like, I mean, you know, we take care of widows and orphans. My wife says sometimes the orphans get left out in that, but but in this stage of life, um, and you know, just her and her faithfulness, you know, no matter what she had else going on at home, she was really convicted about that. So we did the foster care class and we started fostering down in Mississippi. We had a little boy with us, he was the coolest. But um, due to some things going on with Mississippi CPS and judges making some interesting rulings, basically, if it was like a minor drug defense drug offense, everyone went back to their family. So the little boy that we had had for quite a while went back because we wouldn't have left Mississippi if we still had that little guy. He's the coolest. So, um, and you know, the for the first time, you know. So we said, you know, four years of undergrad, two years of seminary, four years of uh medical school, four years of residency, three years of fellowship. For the first time, I'm like 36, like I'm finally becoming an adult. Like you get to choose where you go. Yeah, it was pretty overwhelming. But there were some pretty compelling reasons to move back to West Virginia. I don't want to be in California. I mean, it's a crazy state. Yeah, no thanks. My mom always talks about LA. I was like, tell her it'd make it make it sound like Gotham.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:11

Yeah, not far from it.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:13

So Gotham's based on a true story. LA. So in River Cities, we had plugged into when we were um there during um residency. So and we had kept our house. Everyone in the street was convinced that we were gonna like move to a big doctor house. We're like, we're coming back. And it was funny because when we came back, a lot of there were literally people on our street that thought that Jenny was a single mom. Because they never saw me. Wow. So and and then when we came back to Mississippi or at West Virginia, sorry, we were like, you know, let's get plugged in, let's take the CPS classes because my schedule was dramatically better because I wasn't in training anymore. So we did those classes and uh we had a couple foster kids, and um yeah, that's always interesting. And we had two a sibling pair, and they so we were at six, which is like the CPS limit, and they called us. Um, it was like a family, uh basically there was like a another family that had adopted um you know, this little boy's half-brother. And they're like, we can't take them right now, call the Catrells. So um my wife was like, Well, what do we have to do? And they're like, Well, they have to approve a CPS waiver to go over six, because you know, of course, we're doing it for the money.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:33

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:34

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:36

People that say that, I think they've never done this. Seriously. They have never done this. It is uh, if you're looking at it financially, it is beyond uh a law of uh an economic law of diminishing returns.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:51

One of the little boys we're fostering told his mom that the reason we were fostering was so that we could remodel our house.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:58

Okay, sure, little buddy. Especially when I mean I fostered it, you know, you foster teenagers. Oh different ballgame. It's a different ball game, man. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:12

Man, so I mean, it was like so. We prayed about it, and um, I mean, the brunt, the brunt of it was gonna be on my wife uh with you know, seven kids. And it was like it was literally like 13 minutes later that CPS were like, yeah, it's approved. Just like that. Just like that. So, you know, and he had some medical issues, so he was hanging out for a while, and then uh he came to our home. And um, and then you know, about two years later or so, I think it was about two years later, then uh everything was finalized, and adoption was finalized. And um oh, adoption's the coolest thing. Did you do did you do the thing in court?

unknown 1:17:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:52

Did you have to like go to court and have the judge talk to you?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:55

Uh yes. So I've I've had a few experiences. Obviously, our our two siblings we've adopted, it was international. So we had to go to a Ugandan court run and operated by a Muslim Supreme Court justice. Oh, the seashells? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:15

That's the best.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:16

It was crazy.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:16

You gotta tell for people that haven't

Uganda Courtroom And The Seashell Challenge

SPEAKER_05 1:18:18

heard it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:18

Okay. Can you tell them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the best. I love this. And then, but the before I tell that, when we we were in court um here for another kid, and there's a couple family members in the courtroom, and the judge reads, so we've got this recommendation from the caseworker, the social worker, uh, her supervisor, the guardian adelaitum. Uh, and and the biodad had hired a lawyer wanting us to get the kid. The biodad wanted us to get the kid. It's like a 26-year age gap between the biodad and a bio mom. And we're in court, and this judge is this old, elderly looking dude. I mean, he had to be 75, but he had a thick head of silver hair. I was a little jealous of that. I hear I hear you. And yeah. And he's it's just this long silence, and he's just reading. And all of a sudden he looks up and he goes, Are the Holloways in the room? Yes, yes, sir. Your Your Honor, your Your Majesty. Your Majesty. I don't know what I was supposed to say. And he said, I would like to thank y'all, because we'd had the kid for a year or so at this point. I'd like to thank y'all for for what you've done for this young man at this point. Um, it is my decision to award full guardianship to your family until you're until you want to, if you know, if you want to pursue adoption, that can happen. But for now, you're no longer in a foster situation, issue guard guardianship, and any any parental visitation will be contingent on what the Holloways say. It was crazy, you know. And up and you got we got family members in there tweaking, legitimately tweaking, because they're strung out. It was pretty intense. Yeah, the the yeah, the thing. I think most of our listeners are probably familiar with it, but yeah, we had we had hired a Ugandan lawyer, and this is where people don't understand. I think when I say people don't understand, non-Christian, like people within within the the feminist movement or people that are like very pro-Islam right now, there's a weird pro-Islam sentiment that's meet that's sort of intersecting with feminism, and it's weird, so weird. Like they've they've come up with this their own narrative on what Islam is and teaches and believes. But you go to a you go to a Muslim area like Indonesia, and women, I mean, they're beyond objectified.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:53

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:53

I mean, they very oppressive. It is hard to describe to somebody that hasn't seen it. And so our lawyer, this is a woman who had left East Africa and gone to law school in Great Britain. She had gone to like, I mean, she was very educated. And she comes to us and she says, Okay, when we go into this court, this judge is one of the more influential. They have their equivalent of the Supreme Court, but then those justices are also Superior Court judges, district court judges, something like that, however, their system works. And so they're not exclusively Supreme Court. And she said, he's a he's a senior member of the Supreme Court here, but he is also like a strong, devout Muslim. And what he's gonna do when we get in the courtroom is he's gonna he's gonna ignore you. She's talking to me, and he looked, she looked at little and said, and he's gonna really try to intimidate you. He's gonna bring you down front, he's gonna bring you to the to the bench, he's gonna he's gonna talk down to you. He's got a big, deep, booming voice. And she said, uh, she said, if you basically said, you just need to be compliant and just you know, be meek, be mild, fold your hands, put your head down. She even showed her the posture.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:13

This lady doesn't know your wife.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:14

She said, This lady don't know my wife. And this is where I don't care what anybody says, I'm proud to be an American. And there's something about American exceptionalism and pride where you walk into another country and you're like, you daggum right, I'm I got the full force of the United States of America behind me. There's something about that, and I think anybody should feel that about their country. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:33

You know?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:34

I would feel that way if I was from Belgium, if I was from Brazil. You know, like, and right now the World Cup's been, you know, this past summer, the World Cup was happening, and so everybody's kind of in the in that conversation. And you see all the night when we were watching those games, you saw the national pride around teams. And so I'm like, I don't think she understands what she's asking my wife. But I'm not, I don't say no, I don't say a word. I don't say nothing. And uh yeah, she but we get in court, and this lawyer, our our attorney, she sat with her hands folded in her lap and her head down. She looked down and twiddled her thumbs the whole time. And when he would ask her something, she would she would call him your grace instead of your honor. Yes, your grace, no your grace. But yeah, he calls little to the bench and he says, the only reason you want to, he he grilled her a little bit and she was doing real good. She was being real, I mean, he had her up there for about 10 or 15 minutes, and she's yes sir, no, sir, yes, sir, no, sir. She's she's doing real good. But he gets down to this point where he says, I'll tell you what, I think about you. I think you just want some trophies from Africa. He said, You just want to come over here and press your friends that you got some trophies from Africa. And see, I I didn't say this when I told that story in the sermon, but we had had to fight through and work through. There had been some local magistrates who had tried to convince family members that my kids were living with a great-great-great grandmother. This lady was in her late 80s, and and there was two two or three layers between them and her, and she's like, I'm dying. I can't, she was blind. She's like, I can't do this.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:17

They wanted the grandma to take.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:19

They were saying, Yeah, why do you want to give these kids up? And then yeah, and and there was an uncle, and the grandma said, They're literally gonna die. I can't take care of them. The uncle lived in another village, and the magistrate told the grandma, um, all these Americans want to do is harvest your children's organs because there's a black market in China for for their organs. So they're gonna they're gonna take them, they're gonna harvest their, they're gonna kill them, harvest their organs, and and and that old lady said, Well, if they stay here, they'll die of starvation, 100%. If they go with these people, maybe that's not true, and they'll actually live. So we're in court, and the judge starts like pushing, pushing those buttons with little, and he's like, There's even rumors that you'll just profit off these kids, and he's just rambling, you know. And he said, There's a market for African organs in Tanzania. And I'm like, Tanzania is Africa, you dummy. Like he's but that's when he's like, I've been to Tanzania. I've seen, I've seen the markets. And he said, matter of fact, when I was in Tanzania, I brought seashells back because we went to the, we went on holiday to the sea. And he said, those seashells are in on my mantle in my home. And he said, They're my trophies. When people come to my home, they see my trophies from Tanzania. You just want to take these children and show people your trophies from East Africa. And she unfolded her hands and she put her knuckles down on the bench and leaned over the bench. And she said, She said, You're out of line. Don't you ever, don't you dare insinuate that my my kids created in the image of God are like your seashells. You're out of your mind. And our I thought our I thought our lawyer was gonna stroke. I mean, she was, and that guy, he just sat there like he was trying to figure out what to what to say. But he threw his head back and started laughing, and he said, I like this one. She has fire. She has fire. That's what he said. And we got we got the fastest guardianship order that anybody we talked to had ever heard issued. It took about two weeks, and he had written a guardianship order. Crazy. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:30

In West Virginia, it was a little bit a little bit different. Um, a little bit different. Probably not much. A little bit different. Oh my goodness. Well, I'll never forget um my adoption story because it had such like a mini Psalm 139 is my favorite chapter in the Bible. Like, you know, first John 3, 1. So I'm sitting there and I've got my son on my lap, and I'm like up on the witness stand or whatever. And the judge had like a series of questions. I don't know if this is like this judge's questions as well, or if it was just um, like if this is like a West Virginia thing, but like um two questions mainly. The first question he's like, you know, would you do you promise to provide love and care for this child, you know, as you would your own? And then, you know, I had to answer in the affirmative. And then he said, um, and this is what really struck me. He said, Do you promise to convey on this on this child like all the rights of a natural born son, including inheritance?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:32

Oh, if that's not the gospel, come on.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:36

It was the, and so I'm sitting there and I'm thinking about this later, like trying to process through. Of course, I said yes. And and what struck me is like um remember in the Old Testament when um God had Abram, soon to be Abraham, like split those animals in half, and he's like, You stand on the side. I don't need you. So it's basically like God's the judge. But he's also the one committing to do it. It's like the coolest picture. You know, he my son who's sitting on my lap, he has no say in it. He couldn't have done anything. You know. It was, you know, just undeserved undeserved favor.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:19

Again, it goes back to that. I mean, how's your theology of salvation not form around these words that are used in scripture? Adopted, sealed, inheritance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:30

And then when it says, you know, behold, uh, what manner of love, behold, like woe. Wow. It's incredible. What manner of love the Father has given to us that we should be called children of God.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:45

Huias.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:46

Children of God.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:47

Children of God.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:49

And I don't know where I heard it. Maybe it was here. I I tell these kids, I tell my own kids, God doesn't have grandchildren. He only has children. So it doesn't matter if your parents go to church. Doesn't matter if your parents are Christians. He only has children. That's right. But we as children of God, that's it's one of my favorite um promises in scripture. Like all the rights, inheritance, you know, everything that comes with being like a natural-born heir. Like that's what I promised to with my son. It's the coolest picture.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:22

That is co-heirs with Christ. So such a gospel picture. I feel so bad for Christians who never take part in even supporting families that are fostering or adopting. And if you're not in a position to do it, you can get involved and be engaged. And because of how the like I think about y'all's story with Joey, which I'd like for you to maybe share, talk about how you know Joey's, I mean, these kids are still Yeah, we want to be careful how much of this story we're we're telling, because they gotta live their life. But it's pretty miraculous how he became your son. But but I think how many people have they'll never have like I don't know, it just puts it puts a frame around the gospel that you you understand it in a different context.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:17

Yeah, and it I know it was more me than my wife. I I at first I was ap we were thinking about getting our foster license, and I'm apprehensive, and I'm playing the horror stories through my brain, going, okay, I've already got kids that I want to protect and that I'm gonna answer to the Lord for. And you know, so I'm I'm playing this game, and finally I realize that I'm just being, you know, I was gonna go for it. Like it's what I felt like we really felt like that's what the Lord called us to. And um, yeah, the short story was that just conviction?

SPEAKER_05 1:30:57

Like what what made you did you read something or it was just conviction and working on it?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:02

And it maybe it was a conversation we had, and I finally realized I'm just kind of being a punk about this. Like I need to just trust the Lord. Yeah, that's right. I need to just trust the Lord in this. Yeah. And and then for the what for that story to play out the way it did is so cool because yeah, we had we had two kids followed by two miscarriages.

Joey’s Adoption And The Church’s Role

SPEAKER_01 1:31:30

And that was one of that was one of the the events that really started us down that path. We're like, okay, maybe we know we won't have more kids, so maybe this is what we need to do. And there's so many people in our community here that have fostered and have adopted, and so we had a lot of people to to lean on. But so yeah, we get our we got our foster license, and the first call we got was for a kid. Uh, and we didn't know, you know, we we knew that we wanted to stay in the birth order, and we had told them that beforehand. And so they called and said, hey, we got an 18-month-old, he's got a wild story, you know, it was was born, his mom's on fentanyl when he was born, detoxed, went through several foster homes, not great situations. Um, will you take him? And we said, yeah, we'll take him. So he it was the day before Thanksgiving, they dropped him off at our house. And we in maybe in January, they said, Okay, we're not pressuring you, but we just want to put it out there. Would y'all adopt this kid? And we just said, Absolutely, we will adopt this kid. You know, at that point, there wasn't a whole lot to think about there. This kid needs a home. Yeah. We'll we'll adopt him. Of course we would. So he's Native American, and we've got friends who have fostered Native American kids. They've tried to adopt those kids, and they've gotten a lot of pushback and just kind of got brick walled from Native American CPS and whatever. Because the trends they've got their own, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:27

My wife has some cousins, uh, some family in Alaska, similar situation.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:31

Yeah. So, like with him, we're dealing with our local county CPS and then tribe CPS, all those things. And they've you know, there's there's all these reasons, but they just don't let families outside adopt their kids. That's pretty much the norm. So our his social worker says, okay, if y'all are down to adopt him, we'll start the process, but you just need to know it's it's probably this is probably how it's gonna play out. And we said, okay. So we rolled with it, we filled out all the paperwork, you know, did all the all the prep work and we're ready to go. So they filled out the whole package and they said, Okay, you're good, you're approved from the state, we're gonna reach out to the tribe. And they sent an email to the representative at the tribal CVS, and the same day she responded and said, Yep, sounds good. That's crazy. That is crazy, my God. And that was in yeah. So he he we he's placed with us Thanksgiving. He's adopted May of the next year, which is insane. That timeline's crazy. And then he is, yeah. And then two days after that, that email for approval to adopt him, uh, my wife found out she's pregnant, and Walt was born October of that year. So it's just it's the Lord all day long.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:03

Yeah. Our church in Mississippi had some statistics, basically. I mean, if the church was doing its job, CPS wouldn't be needed for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:12

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:13

That's right. You look at how many evangelical, just evangelical churches there are in America, and then you look at how many children in America are in foster care, and there's more churches. If one child to one church was the ratio, yeah, that's sad, and we're gonna answer to God for that.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:34

I would say to anybody listening to this, if you if you're not doing anything to support or help or encourage, you are out of line. And and and and I do not understand how you can look at yourself in the mirror knowing that they're that God has that the scripture gives clear commands. True religion, true, pure and undefiled religion. If you're not doing that, I don't know how you like I would wrestle with saying I'm a Christ follower who believes the word of God and follows Jesus, and you're having nothing to do with that. Like, I don't know how you reconcile that in your mind unless you've just created a 21st century brand of Christianity that doesn't line up with what scripture teaches. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:17

Not not saying you got to go adopt a kid right now. Correct. You got to go foster a kid right now, but you gotta be getting dirty. You gotta be cheap, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:25

Yeah, at the local church level, it's just such a sterile environment. I mean, back in back in the New Testament, I mean, they were just you know doing this thing called exposing babies, just dumping them outside the city, you know, and the Christians were going and getting them. Going and getting them now, it's like to go into CPS and it's like kind of behind the scenes, and but yeah. Not my problem. Yeah, yeah. Man, so so the question was, how did God use that, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:52

My goodness, off track.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:53

No, it's good. I did think of uh I'll tell her one really quick funny story. Um I met a family. They had they had started the pro he was a police officer, she's a pediatric nurse. Worked at like a local local Pede's office, and and he's the police officer, they're from Chicago. They're they're they're unable to have a baby. So they start this process with an international adoption agency. They also then, while they're they realize the average is three to four years, so they they get licensed to foster. Um, they start fostering. And in a four-month window, she gets pregnant, they adopt an African kid, and they get a placement like yours that light speed in like a four-month window, they get three kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:47

What do you think? Okay, from the pastor's, you know, theology, what do you think is the theological? You think there's a theological reason for that, or you think it's just biology? Because I got a theory.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:58

I well, I would love okay, uh you go first. I'm no doctor, but okay, seriously, you know how many people I know that they they can't have a child, and they're like, okay, we'll adopt. And then a lot of times they fight it, yeah, and then they start the process and get pregnant. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:13

I was all dumb.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:15

Yeah, I I figured it was physiological. Like I always just thought, okay, there's something within the way the body's reacting to the stress of moving on from this. I can't get pregnant, I can't get pregnant, I can't get pregnant. That's part of it. But I don't know. I'd love to hear what you have to say.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:28

I think that's a part of it. I mean, I think stress, I mean, stress is real and people are so anxious, and you know, um, you know, it may change your relationship. Uh may change your relationship slightly as a man and wife, you know, if things are timed out, so to speak. You know, if that's the only goal. Um, not that's the only goal, but um, but I think that scripture is abundantly clear that God opens and closes the womb. I mean, you see it from the very from Genesis.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:58

God opens and closes the womb, and you see it over and over. I mean, you can go get some mandrakes out of the field if you want.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:04

That's right. Not I don't know what you're up to.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:08

But then it seems like so many times you're just um like in now, like I said, this is a blanket statement. Of course, there's medical conditions and things like that. That's a whole other podcast. But um, a lot of times when you just surrender to God, you know, then he gives you the desires of your heart. Yes. And then you've got them, you know, then you got Iris twins. Yeah, yeah. But I think that's privilege. Yeah, and and I'm sure that it can be explained away by biology and stress levels and this and that. That's why God opens and closes the womb. I mean, you see it over and over and over.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:45

Yeah, man, that makes so much sense. And yeah, and because I'm not a medical person, I'm not, I'm not a scientist. So I've all everything for me goes through the lens of theology. So I've always just thought when those people they when they put that in the hands of God and said, we're gonna do what we're capable of doing, what aligns with scripture, which is we're gonna adopt a child. Yeah. And then the Lord opens their womb.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:11

Yeah, because adoption is such a clear picture of redeeming something that's broken. It is, man. And and let me know. And my wife, she reminds me about that. It's like it's restoring like a broken situation.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:22

It is. But I tell people there's two things. This is gonna sound like a rabbit hole for just one for 30 seconds. Hit me. There's there's two things that when people ask me, I always go, okay, we need to have a conversation. I'm not gonna give you a quick answer. One is someone will come up to me and say, Hey, I would like to get my concealed carry permit. What gun should I buy? And I'm like, okay. Like, if you're gonna start carrying a firearm around, there's a whole lot you better have thought through. You know, like that is a big deal to say, I'm gonna carry a firearm. Yeah. Meaning I'm potentially gonna shoot somebody with a gun. Like, you better look, like, let's let's hit pause. Let's work through the ethics of this and understand biblically. And I carry a gun, but let's understand the ethics of the when and the where. And okay, so the other thing is somebody will come up to me and say, We're thinking about adopting. Would love to hear your thoughts on it. As if it's gonna be like, yeah, my favorite drink is an Americano. Go for it. Order that when you go to Morgan Fall. You know, like, okay, we need to sit down and have a conversation. And this is more and more evident because my wife and I, um, we are we have dealt with so much early childhood traumatic experiences that my kids went through because we've gotten kids at all ages, and our two current, the the kids that are currently only two kids that live at home with us right now are adopted. And we got them at ages five and two, and a lot of early childhood trauma. Five, that's a lifetime of trauma. Yeah, sexual trauma, yeah, abuse, yeah, you know, what what you would you would consider human trafficking and by our standards over here. And so if you think you're gonna go scoop this kid up and they're gonna see you as the rescuer, you know, and you're and all they need is love, all they need is love. It is way more complex than that. It is so, it alters every facet of your life. Yes, very disruptive. It's so disruptive, and you don't get to say, I mean, you gotta figure it out. You can't tap out. You can't tap out. You gotta figure it out. Yeah, and you're you're changing. I'm realizing I was literally, I laid my head on my pillow at two. What time this morning did we leave camp? 2 20, we left. Yeah. We heard somebody heard gunshots at camp. So me and Adam, we go looking to try to figure out it was on the back side of the property, and it was some rednecks over there riding four-wheelers and firing off fireworks. By the time we figure that out, it's 2.15 in the morning. I was like, you can go home and sleep a couple hours? I think I will. So, and now I'm like I'm laying down, it's 2.30, and uh, the last thing I remember thinking this morning when I fell asleep at 2.30 a.m. was that I have a child that's nearing high school graduation and she is not ready to go live in the world. Whereas my biological children, we set them on a course of like pushed them, pushed them hard, go do. And I'm like, okay, what is this gonna look like at 18, at 21, at 24? What does it look like to help start a career? You know, like we're we're not, we still got a lot of work to do. So I would I I think I don't want to be when I say if you're a if you're a child of God, you're a Christian, you need to be doing something with this. I appreciate what you said, Adam, which is don't mean you gotta jump into the deep end of the pool. Exactly. Yeah, because it, but you need to know some of us got to jump into the deep end of the pool. And it's not gonna be, oh, we'll get them to 18 and they'll have a productive, awesome, healthy life. This is man, it is a yeah, I don't know when it never ends. It's like, you know, I might be dealing with this one when that kid's 30, and if if the Lord lets me live.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:14

So I think that's important to recognize.

Sharing Faith In A Secular Hospital

SPEAKER_05 1:44:17

Um But it's it's such a witness to the world because a primary can primary criticism that I hear at work is that the evangelical community is pro-birth. That we just want the babies to be born, but don't care what happens to them. Exactly. Exactly. And so that's just God's uh I mean, isn't it gonna be cool when we get to heaven and we can see how all these things like the tapestry of our life? Yeah, it's like all woven together. And um, so I don't really get comments anymore about work because you know, we were willing to take that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, what do you what are you gonna say to someone that, you know, adopting it? And I would do it again, and I would do it again.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:08

Because he's the best. I mean, our family, it wouldn't be our family without him.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:11

Right. You can't even imagine that. No. But you're right, and and I can appreciate, you know, this is something my wife's very sensitive to, which is a lot of uh a lot of evangelical Christians are as much Republican as they are Christian, they're as much pro-life as they are pro-gospel. That becomes becomes kind of their main thing. And uh there's so many people that fight for the the legislative rights of the unborn, but not for the actual quality of life of the unborn. And so they'll vote, they'll lobby, they'll post stuff on their social media page. A lot of people will do this that are very pro-life sentiment. But then Little gets frustrated because she's like, Well, but okay, great. So that child didn't get aborted. What's gonna happen? We're gonna let DSS, CPS, take that child, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:46:04

Or be adopted by a lesbian couple.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:08

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and it's complex. So that's why when somebody says, I think we're gonna adopt, like, that's awesome. We need to have a conversation.

unknown 1:46:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:18

And that, and uh adoption is one of those things that um, like working in the secular workplace, there's certain things that um, and I'm not saying that like you shouldn't stand out, like I'm not casting any aspersions on uh people that um lobby or anything like that. I'm just saying my personal conviction is that the conversations take place and are most productive in the context of relationship. I can have like a very honest conversation with um colleagues that think very differently than me. And we're coming from a very, very different place because it's in the context of relationship. Uh I came back, I came back from voting uh a couple of years ago. Um, I can't remember what election it was, uh, Trump and someone else. And uh I got to rounds. So that's when we sit around a table and they tell me about all the patients that are there in the hospital, and then we go see them all, go room to room. And um, one of the med students said, Oh, Dr. Cotrell, who did you vote for?

SPEAKER_02 1:47:16

You got your sticker on. I vote for you.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:18

I can't remember. Yeah, probably. I probably did.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:19

They know though.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:20

Oh, yeah. Who did you vote for? Oh, oh gosh.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:24

So I I stole a line from a friend of mine, real good friend of mine, um, that works for a parachurch organization. And I asked them, I said, if I tell you, will it change your opinion of me? And they're like, Well, yeah, of course. I'm not telling you. Yep. We gotta keep the main thing. The main thing is what I'm thinking in my head. Yeah, like there's no reason to let that distract from like don't get sidetracked with things like that. Like, you know, I voted who I voted for, but if that's gonna distract or make you think if you're gonna, if you're gonna think less of me, think less of me because of the gospel. Not because of who I voted for.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:01

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:02

Like that's just that's good. I think that's a very important thing, working in the secular workplace to keep in mind. Like, yes, proclaim the truth, but the conversations are most. I mean, I'm Facebook post has never changed my mind about something.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:18

But it has broken a lot of relationships in people's lives.

unknown 1:48:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:22

So have the conversation in the context of it's like what you were saying about carrying a firearm or adoption. Like this is gonna take a sit-down. And if you really know the person, it's gonna be the most productive. That's right. Like if a stranger asks you that, yeah, you could sit down and talk with them for an hour, but you don't know where they're coming from. They don't know you, there's not a like a trust there. Like we I can have pretty genuine conversations with um colleagues and coworkers because we both know each other. And yes, they they know that I know that they want what's best for patients, and I know they know the same for me, but we have very different views about what that means.

Abortion Misinformation And Real Options

SPEAKER_02 1:49:00

So in that world right now, you're you're living and working in a profession that is predominantly I don't know if you'd say pro-abortion, pro-choice, but and I'd like for you to speak to the theological framework of that because I my theory, my, my, my theological stance on this is that it is in the same vein as the Canaanites who sacrifice their children to Mullock. I believe it's demonic. I believe it's a I believe it is a demonic movement among people in America who are educated and and in the upper middle class and affluent, and the the wealthiest among us promote it. The poorest among us typically use it. Um not not like exclusively, but I'm saying it affects every socioeconomic class, but but the loudest voices. Tend to be people in the medical field or people in the educational field or people in you know in entertainment in Hollywood. And so my I've always just thought theologically, this is just a movement that's driven by like demons and evil and the fallenness and brokenness of humanity. So I don't know. I'd like to hear your perspective on that. And I would be wide open to correction on that. Because I think what's unique about what you bring to this conversation is you know, look back and now you're like, oh, we got an MD, you know, you went got a master's degree from a very reputable theological school that we align with, other than maybe some of the dispensational stuff. But yeah, so it's like really, really, you've got a very unique perspective to speak from. And now that you've got a career and a lot of experience working with people that had the the pressure or at least the option to abort. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:01

I think um, well, if our if the listeners once want to go down a rabbit hole, an interesting one would be to look up the history of Planned Parenthood. The original name of it was the American Eugenic Society. And it was, you know, the goal was to place it in uh, you know, certain um populations, you know, for the purpose of eugenics. Yep. Yep. And then you know it's so racist. Very much so. Very much so. And so um I've and this is why Psalm 139 is, I mean, it's it's the best. I mean, I look at, I mean, when you think about um an embryo, you know, right when the egg is fertilized by the sperm, it's that is the tiniest uh image bearer of God.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:53

That's a good way to put that.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:54

I mean, it's one cell.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:55

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:57

It's the tiniest image bearer of God. And so um I think if you cling fast to uh the simple truth that life begins at conception, I think it it in this area of abortion and pro-life and pro-chur choice, I think it causes you to look at these laws um in a totally different light. You know, it's just to make exceptions, you know, for rape or incest. If you believe that life begins at conception, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense scientifically, and it doesn't make any sense morally or ethically, and um and the the hard thing about it is that um you know you have the uh the organizations are very um pro-abortion, but they're not generally representative of the population of people practicing. So if you look at the statistics, you know, it's it's like a lot of things in the United States right now. It's like a vocal minority is the loudest and um beating the drum of it. But I think there's a big difference in, you know, there's the the people that are, you know, saying, you know, access to abortion at any age at any time for any reason. And then there's the people that are like, well, I don't do it myself, but I don't have a problem with it. But I think the correct theological view is uh life begets a conception. And I think that's getting more difficult to grapple with as the technology gets better.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:32

Proven it.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:33

Yeah, we can see things now that we could never see before. It's unbelievable what you can see now. And I was uh just actually on Thursday night before we headed down here to Snowbird for camp. I was reading ultrasounds. Okay, so the sonographers take the pictures, and um, and then I like flip through the images and make sure everything's good, and I assign the report and it goes to the doctor. Okay, so there was a it was a about I think she was about 28 weeks. I was looking at the ultrasounds of the baby, we're checking on the baby's growth, checking the blood flow through the umbilical cord. And they were trying, like the sonographers do, they're trying to get 3D pictures because that's what moms really want. You know, who does the baby look like? So they're trying to get a 3D picture, and the baby, yeah, the baby just goes into a full-on yawn.

unknown 1:54:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:16

Full-on yawn. Wow, and I was pretty tired, so it made me yawn. But my grant, my granny was a knitter, she was sitting in her chair and clickety, clickety, clickety, knit away, you know, all these Christmas stockings. And so, um, and I've shared this uh before at my church. I thought to myself, and I have this thought often, God's knitting knitting today. He's knitting them together. Yep, he's knitting them together, and that starts at conception before you can even see any of that. Before you can see any of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:52

God just knitting and knitting and knitting. In 1972 or three, when Roe v. Wade was codified. What? Um We didn't know anything. You could listen to a heartbeat. That's about it. Which is what is so sobering. I mean, shame on us for for making it happen then, because the theological truth was already in place. Already in place. All science will ever do is confirm and affirm what scripture has already proven to be true.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:26

Said to be true.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:27

And that's the amazing thing about the Bible is you can never ever plumb the depths of scripture. Like every every time I set out to study something, then uh there's something new. It's incredible. It's the best. I mean, you can never ever, and those theological truths are there, but um, I don't know if it's a lack of conviction or just going along with what the world says. It's hard to sort those things out.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:55

So give us a it could be a hypothetical situation or it could be a specific situation you have in mind where a mother is faced with a child. I'd like to I'd like to have two scenarios. You kind of well, you already you already did one. That if if the baby was gonna die, you talked about the family that went to Disney World and and then you the other scenario that you shared of the mother who rather than have her child aborted. Yeah, she was, yeah. What about a scenario where the mom is faced with a choice your child's gonna be born with a particular birth defect, and the pressure is, but you could have this child, this this pregnancy terminated, you could have his child aborted, yeah, so that you don't have to bear that burden of responsibility. I'm I would imagine in your line, that's something you see pretty regularly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:46

My my colleague has a has a great line for this, and um he because the thing that you hear most often, and I think to me it's like a justification, which is I'm worried about the baby's quality of life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:00

Come on. So uh down syndrome people, the happiest people alive. So happy. Yeah. Like seriously, you're worried about quality of life.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:10

Yeah, and then you just see these horrific reports out of Sweden that they've, you know, um, that they've gotten rid of that the Down syndrome is no more in their country. It's like, well, yeah, because they killed them all. Killed them all, literally killed them all.

unknown 1:57:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:23

So he, when he's feeling real spicy, he'll uh tell the patients, quality of life for you or for the baby?

SPEAKER_02 1:57:31

So this colleague's a believer. No. Oh, wow. But he puts it right back on him.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:37

So I don't know. This is uh this is a rubric, um, and I don't know if this answers your question exactly, but you know, because the question will come up quite often in Christian circles, like ectopic pregnancies, you know, pregnancies that aren't inside the uterus and things like that. And so the simple, like I said, I don't have, I need to just keep studying and feeling conviction from the spirit. But my general uh rule of thumb, how I think about these sort of situations, is is it gonna like um cure the problem for the mom? Like if you deliver this baby, you know, whether it not be early. Like, for example, the patient that had um congestive heart failure that passed away. Like if we would have, if she would have had an abortion at 13 weeks, she could have died of congestive heart failure five weeks later, regardless. You know, whereas like an ectopic pregnancy, you know, like a pregnancy in the tube, um, I don't have any problem operating on those patients, you know, that's it's a pregnancy, it's gonna put the mom in danger. It's a not not a viable pregnancy. And so um, those are just kind of the things like that I work through in my mind. Um, yeah, it's like a pregnancy in the tube, the tube's gonna explode for lack of a better term. There's gonna be a massive amount of bleeding, but then you take care of it, you take out the tube, and then the mom's fixed. So, and that's where it gets real uh fuzzy, I think, with in the the national media, you know, it's portrayed very differently than real life. And so that's why, yeah. Yeah, there's just a lot of misinformation. There's a lot of misinformation. So I feel quite I feel quite a few calls from like friends of friends, or this person's been told this, or this person's been told this. So I just thought, man, call me. I'll talk to you about it. I mean, hopefully, if it's helpful, I'm happy to talk to you about it. Um, I mean, I get calls, we do like a week on, a week off. So I'm like on call for a week at a time. I mean, I get calls from random strangers at 3 a.m. You know, I'm happy to talk about um kind of a theology of, you know, that life begins at conception. So, and that's kind of how we, when I have these difficult conversations with patients, um, and this is I kind of I kind of think what we were talking about last night about like um having spiritual conversations with patients and whether or not that's taboo. Were you the one saying that like someone was saying, you're telling me earlier about someone like isn't allowed to talk about God at work? Is that what they were saying?

SPEAKER_01 1:59:54

Yeah.

unknown 1:59:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:55

Like if somebody, like I met a guy who's the whatever the operating procedures in his profession say you can't talk about your faith. And we were talking about okay, for a believer, scripture is the highest authority in in my life, and it's gonna inform everything I do. And I know that's nuanced. That's I'm not generalizing that situation, but but yeah, for you, it's so encouraging to me the way you're approaching that is yeah, well, what's worse that could happen?

SPEAKER_05 2:00:28

Yeah. And well, what I've realized too is if you pray, okay, for anyone in like a secular environment that's working at a secular job, if you pray for opportunities to share your faith, the Holy Spirit will always provide them. Always. I made it a habit to start praying for uh opportunities to share. And sometimes I was telling you this earlier, sometimes I fail spectacularly. They do like this like they do the hospital moment every morning. I don't know what time it's at, nine o'clock or whatever, and they have some, you know, uh mystical saying, you know, that's supposed to cheer everybody up. And there was a there was one of them, it was about having peace in your life. And, you know, we're sitting there typing away, you know, seeing patients. And um, and one of the uh resident doctors, uh, she was sitting there typing away, and she kind of stopped typing for a minute after listening to this quote. She's like, that's that's what I need in my life. I need more peace. And and I'm typing away. This is a doctor. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

unknown 2:01:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:01:29

And I'm typing away, and then um, and it just totally, totally blew it. Totally missed it. Totally missed it. And then, like, three minutes later, I was like, like I it's like I got hit by a two by four. Like, that was it. Ally oop.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:46

It was like a slow the ball on the tee. Yeah, slow piece. Talk about a slow piece.

SPEAKER_05 2:01:51

Yeah, totally missed it. So he's just okay, give me another one. Give me another one. I mean, people talk about all sorts of stuff at work. It would have been so simple for me to say, I got I I've got peace. Not because of anything I've done. You know, not because of anything I've done. Um, and so I think if you're in in a secular workplace and you pray for those opportunities, and then you just have to let I'm not saying don't be wise. I mean, Joseph, Daniel, those guys were so smart. Daniel, probably greatest statesman ever. I mean, so wise. So you have to navigate the surroundings, but if you pray for opportunities and then the opportunities, opportunities are provided, and then you take advantage of those opportunities, then God will honor that. And then just let the chips fall where they may. You know, if I I love being a doctor, I love practicing medicine, it's fun to me. It doesn't feel like a job, you know, because I like it. It's, I mean, because people are people and hilarious stuff happens every day. Yeah. They tell you the crazy, they tell you the craziest stuff. But just last week, so that happened Thursday, I was reading Ultrasounds, watching God knitting. Like two days before that, I walk into a room, and this um uh patient, and we had seen each other before, and um, I had rounded on her Sunday morning before going to church, many weeks before, like a couple months before, actually. She was only like 14, 15 weeks pregnant. She's like, Oh, what are you doing today? I was like, I'm gonna go to church this morning. And so we started talking about river cities, and then I was going to church that morning. Well, she comes in, and before I'm able, even to age, she's like 30, maybe 34, 35 weeks pregnant, middle third trimester. Before I'm even able to say anything, ask her how her baby's doing, ask her if she's having any contractions, you know, the normal OB questions. She said, Um, oh, I'm glad it's you. I want to have a spiritual conversation. So I was like, let's go. I was getting hyped. Yeah. I was like, let's do it. And so she went, she was, she said, you know, I'm really anxious. I'm really worried. You know, I read that, you know, one in every 160 pregnancies in West Virginia have experienced stillbirth. And I'm really worried about this uh baby just dying. And she said, and she said something that I thought was it kind of really let me know where she was at with the Lord. She said, Um, I feel like like we're told that God has prepared good works for us to walk in. And she's like, because of my anxiety, I'm not able to walk in them. Isn't that great? Wow. Like that shows a lot of like the the process of sanctification in her life.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:21

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:22

She would say that.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:24

So we talked about it. And there it was, the resident physician. Um, she just like it was so she was telling the story on Friday, actually, perenatal rounds when we were meeting with our NICU team to let them know who's in the hospital and who's coming and all that kind of stuff. She's like, Dr. Cadrell sitting there for 30 minutes talking about Bible verses. And that's what we were doing. We were talking about not being anxious. We were talking about, you know, God provides for the sparrows and he provides for the lilies. So we're not saying don't plan ahead, but God's in charge. So he's gonna take care of you. And um, and then we were talking about Psalm 139, about how um this baby, all of this baby's days are written in a book and they're ordained, and even before one of them has come to be. I was like, and that was true before he got pregnant. Wow, it's true now. So cool. True tomorrow. So so we're just we're just a doctor going to work. Yeah, no example.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:21

Go to work. Doctor going to work.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:22

And I and I I can't remember if I had prayed that that morning, but um, if you pray for the if you're in a secular work environment, just pray for the opportunities and ministry will come to you. It'll come to you, and you're gonna, I mean, I do it so many times, just strike out, and then I'm like, put me back in, coach. Give me another shot. Yeah, and then you'll have another. I like to share. I've got a good friend, um, and I like to share with him all my failures of missed opportunities at work. So, and I think if as if you're doing that and you're consistently doing it, and um I think you become more spiritually aware of those opportunities.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:05

Makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 2:06:06

I think the Lord, I think the Lord, I think the Lord brings them too. And don't get distracted with like all the other stuff. Like don't get distracted with don't get distracted with the other things.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:16

You're only the second person we've known. We know a guy that he's a he's a senior pastor and a church planner that brings students, their church brings students over here a couple weeks ago. This guy was he got his theological education, got his MDiv, I think, from Southern, and then he got his PhD from Southeastern, and then he went to work at an old church that was dying, but it's a church with a lot of money and old money. But he's got frustrated and burnt out. So one night, sitting at his studies, age he's about age 31, opens up his laptop and fills out an application for the FBI. And that guy is now 18 years into an FBI career where he's on the hostage rescue team. He's an explosive ordnance special specialist. Um, he's a high-level operator. And then about five years ago, the Lord allowed him to go back into pastoral ministry, planted a church. So he's a bivocational guy who planted. But meeting guys like you and him, where you've got this theological training, it's just so different applying that in a secular world context is so powerful, man. Like most people that go the path you went, the path he went, end up pastoring a local church. And thank God for them, the pastors and youth pastors that come here, it's awesome. That may happen to me if I like, you know, take my license.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:42

There's talk in certain states of like if you're not willing, or other countries certainly, like if you're not willing to perform, like, you know, full spectrum OBGY and care, you know, basically doing abortions, as well. Yeah, then they take your license. So that's what Adam and I were. It's like, what's the worst thing? And that's why that patient was so impactful to me. Okay, so I lose my license. So then I live another 40 years. Who cares? Like God will provide.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:07

Well, answer to the King Jesus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:08:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:12

Can you tell last thing I have, and then anything you want to share, anything you think about? The only other question I had is is there a story where you can, even if it's I'm obviously not naming people, but where someone was on a path to abortion and after a conversation about the gospel, their heart was turned and the child was delivered into the world. Could you share a story like that?

SPEAKER_05 2:08:41

Um, I think the biggest thing that that comes to mind, and this is an um it's a national issue right now, which is there's a pregnancy condition called like where the basically the um embryo implants up into the cesarean scar. So someone's had a C-section before, and instead of being at the top of the uterus, it's down there in the scar. And um, all the professional science societies say that um that's that's like a reason to have an abortion. And they list all the bad things that can happen. Um, surprisingly, they say that the mom can die from it, but I've never ever been able to find any sort of case report where a mom actually died. So I bring that up quite routinely with my trainees. Like, look, they're saying this and they have no reference for it. And we've um had quite a we've had a handful of those at our institution, um, not quite a handful yet, where um, yeah, we talk to them, say, yeah, most likely they're gonna lose a lot of blood. Most likely uh you're gonna get transfused and you're gonna get a hysterectomy. Because the problem is that the placenta doesn't come out. So the baby will come out, but the placenta is just like stuck right there in that scar. And so you most likely get end up with a hysterectomy. And most likely you're gonna take home a baby. And so that's and I I can tell you, I mean, unless it's um I can tell you that in certainly in other states, that um those women are told that there is no other option. They're basically told like, like, oh yeah, you have to do this. And so that's a that's a stain on, and that kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier. Like, and that's where it it makes you think of it's it's more of a it's it's not just the medical thing, like there's a spiritual component to it. Like we're not wrestling against flesh and blood, we're not wrestling against research articles and best evidence and best guidance. Like there's a spiritual, there has to be a spiritual component to it because it's just misinformation. Yeah. And that's what's so frustrating, like that's what's so maddening to me because um a lot of these societies, and I'm sure it's the same with like internal medicine doctors in euthanasia, you know, but I we you're just kind of in the thick of it in the national argument. So I, you know, I see these sometimes I'm in the physician's lounge and they're like one of the news stations will be up there. Depends on on what doctor's in there. It's either, you know, CNN or Fox News. Yeah, yeah. Right. Flip it back and forth. And it's like, you know, I was, you know, I was told there was no other choice. And um, we had some trainees that came down. Okay, this is this is a good example. Do we have time?

SPEAKER_04 2:11:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:11:33

Okay. So when someone's water breaks early, um, because amniotic fluid is really like it's you have to have amniotic fluid for lungs to develop. Like amniotic fluid is just a fancy way of saying baby pee. That's what it is. They pee it out and they swallow it. We all did it. Oh, okay. Yeah. Um it's a little salty. Sometimes you get the time of delivery. Whoa. Yeah, it's like, oh, I'm back surfing again. So You have to have amniotic fluid for lungs to develop. So when um when a lady's water breaks at you know 16, 17, 18, 20 weeks, um, there's a very high chance that you know they're they're gonna get an infection or they're gonna start having bleeding. Um and so in many states is basically told, like, yeah, you gotta deliver. Yeah, you gotta deliver. And that's just not it's not the case. Like, it's always safer for the mom to not be pregnant. I mean, if you go back, you know, even a hundred years ago, a lot of a lot of women died in childbirth. But to tell a pregnant lady whose water is broke at 18 weeks that this baby doesn't have a chance, it's it's just wrong. It's a lie. It's a lie. And we had some, we had some some of my um uh co-fellows down at Mississippi. Like we had a lady and her water had broken it, I don't know, 18 or 20 weeks or whatever. And she was like, uh, she had reached viability and she was, you know, she actually she was just before viability, which is that means like the baby can survive on the outside. She was like 21 weeks or so. The baby can survive on the outside, has about a little better than a 50% chance at 23 weeks. And it's gonna be lower, of course, if her water's broke. Anyway, she asked me, she was coming on service, I was coming off service, um, which means she was gonna be covering the hospital. She's like, hey, why is this lady still pregnant? I'm like, oh, well, uh, you know, she's uh 22 weeks in her in her water's broke. And so she's just hanging out, you know, because the risk of infection is high, the risk of bleeding is high. You know, if they start to show infection, you gotta deliver them. Like you can't sit around waiting because at that point the ship has sailed. She's like, Oh, she's like, I like you keep them pregnant? I'm like, yeah. If they want to stay pregnant, yeah, of course. She's like, oh yeah, in in New York, like we didn't even offer them that option. Wow. Yeah. And think about the position of a patient, like they don't know. They don't know. They just trust I'm trusting this doctor. Yes. Imagine if you were just told, like, hey, you gotta do this, like there is no other choice. And so that's what's so disheartening about it. Um, and and this is like besides the spiritual component, that's what's so disheartening about it as far as the medical component. And so I don't know, my my trainees probably get sick of me beating on this drum. But I was like, you have to give patients options. Like when I see a patient with substance abuse, I tell them the same thing. Like, you can keep using drugs, like that's an option. You're gonna get some temporary pleasure, you may get infection in your heart, you know, or you can stop using drugs, you know. So, but to tell someone that their options when their water is broken, that they can either have a termination or they can continue the pregnancy, like the fact that they don't even tell them that they can continue is just bad science.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:44

That's where I'm certain.

SPEAKER_05 2:14:45

It's not the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:46

Yeah, that's where I go. Is this is evil?

SPEAKER_05 2:14:49

Yeah, well, exactly. And that, but that's a that's a pretty difficult conversation to have with unbelievers. Because that's not even in their like we'll that's not even in their thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:59

They don't have a category for it.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:01

Exactly. That's a great way to go.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:02

No, that's what we do. This the in their mind, this is what we do. Water broke, 20 weeks.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:08

I have had so many patients whose water broke like that, and um, and they took up my baby. Normal baby. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So the fact that the fact that a lot of these patients aren't even given the option is, and like I said, I mean we said it, that's the that's the there's something else, like that's the spiritual component.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:31

When that happens, do you then just try to get them to 23 weeks and then induce? Or do you know all the way to 34? As long as they can go. Yeah, to 33.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:39

Because at 23 weeks, because what we don't know is how much amniotic fluid is enough. So, you know, not normal is a little pocket, at least two by two centimeters. So if they have like, because they got to be drinking that fluid in order for their lungs to develop. So, yes, we've had cases where they make it to 32 or 34 weeks and then they're born in and the baby can't breathe. Like that happens. Like as soon as they try to put some air in the baby's lungs, like the baby's lungs, you know, just like pop for lack of a better term. Like they explode. Because it's like like the tree branches are there, but the way I tell medical students, the tree branches are there, but there's no leaves. So there's nothing to like exchange oxygen, just like a stripped-out tree. So that happens. But um, and that's why when, and we we Adam and I were talking about this when patients like thinking about opportunities to pray, like when patients say, Um, like, I'm gonna be praying about it, I was like, Yes, I like I take that as my opportunity. Doors open. Oh, yeah. When they're like, when I tell them, like, give them bad news, like, hey, um, like your baby doesn't have any kidneys. So, and this is like on ultrasound, you see it. Like, you know, there's no fluid, there's no kidneys. A hundred percent of these babies don't make it, you know. And um, and then they say something along the lines of, you know, we're gonna pray about it. I'm like, eh, you wanna pray about it right now? And I haven't had a patient turn me down yet. Wow. So, and it's it's simple, it's just God, you know that getting news like this is really hard. Like, and it's hard to think that you're still good. But you know this baby, all the days were ordained. So give us peace.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:17

And what about last question?

The Fall And Peace In Christ

SPEAKER_02 2:17:22

A mom looks at you and says, Why is this happening to my baby? How do you answer that as a as a doctor, but also who's informed by the reality of sin and death and the wages of it and the fall?

SPEAKER_05 2:17:38

I kind of weigh like I pray for wisdom that um like to kind of judge where the patient's at. Because usually the only patients that ask that question have some sort of framework for where they're trying to fit things. So most of the time, the people that ask that question, it's like the you know, why do bad things happen to good people? Sort of time. But I if I have the opportunity and um and the and I ask them, like, do you really want to know? Like, do you actually want to know? And then like, what are they gonna say? Yeah, tell me. And I tell them, because Adam and Eve ate that apple. That's why. And um the longer I've I've been in the profession, um the more um, how do I say this? The more um broken over sin it's made me. Because like I just see things and I'm and I think to myself, like, this isn't the way it's supposed to be. Like, this is not the way that God designed it to go. Like you're supposed to, you know, multiply and fill the earth, and then everything's great. You know how babies born, but no kidneys that pass away right after they're delivered because they can't breathe and they're gasping for air, and it's super traumatic. Um, but that's what I just tell them. I tell them this is like this is the effects, like our whole uh like world is just like permeated.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:06

With the effects of sin and the fall in the garden.

SPEAKER_05 2:19:09

Yeah, and that, and that I think, I think patients can relate to that because I think everyone deep down, they unless they just harden their heart, they have to struggle with that like like uh like the pain in the world question. Like, why does you know loving God cause pain? It's like things aren't supposed to be like this. Like you you get the sense if you're really honest with like this is not how things are supposed to be. So, or you just harden your heart and say, you know, I'm I'm living for today. And um, I don't know, it kind of not I won't say I was crashing out, but that lady that chose to continue the pregnancy with heart failure that passed away, it was very interesting in the conversation the next day and round because the trainees and some of the other physicians were saying how dumb she was. What a terrible choice she made. And I just, I'm not gonna say I snapped, but I was just because I would, of course, I was like thinking about it all night long, and you know, because I was there with her husband and um her kids. And um, and so I was just like, I just couldn't take it anymore. I'm like, listen, you all make decisions based on what you think's gonna happen when you die. You know, do you think that it doesn't matter? Okay, then you're just living it up. You think that your good has to outweigh your bad? Okay, so you give the the homeless person a couple bucks on your way home. I was like, she made a decision. How based on what she believes is gonna happen when she dies. How how why are you judging her for that? Like you say that that patients should have autonomy, and yet everyone's sitting around here, like basically saying how dumb this lady was. And I'm thinking in my head, what a witness. Yeah, like she's faithful to the end. Like tragic, sad, the results of the fall, but she's a martyr for faith.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:11

Yeah, that's how I look at it. I like to say your eschatology um guides your ethics. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. What you how you think this is all gonna end will determine how you live your life. Yeah, for better or worse.

SPEAKER_05 2:21:26

And non-believers are doing at that, but they don't realize it's true.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:28

Right, yeah, that's that's true for all people.

SPEAKER_05 2:21:30

Yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:32

Whether you're true for all people, yep, yeah. Your eschatology, you know, they asked Richard Dawkins, um, what do you think will happen when you die? And he said, I'll just go into the darkness, and there'll be no cognition. It's the same as before I ever existed. And then they said, Do you want a particular song played at your funeral? And he said, Oh yes, Bach. And he named the symphony and the number and the and it's this rich, poetic, symphonic experience. And they're like, How oxymoronic.

SPEAKER_05 2:22:09

It doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:22:12

It doesn't make up it doesn't make a lick of sense to live your yeah, it doesn't make any sense to live your life that way. But I think I think it's so easy to get caught up in your job, whether it's uh, you know, working at a pharmacy or, you know, um laying a heavy pipe, waiting tables, that you don't um take those things into consideration. Yeah, because what does it matter if he's if he goes into the darkness?

SPEAKER_02 2:22:39

Who cares? Who cares what they play?

SPEAKER_05 2:22:40

Who cares?

SPEAKER_02 2:22:41

Just flushes ashes down the toilet.

SPEAKER_05 2:22:43

What's it matter? And if that lady that was just gonna go into darkness that passed away, who cares if she lived another 40 years?

SPEAKER_02 2:22:50

Right.

SPEAKER_05 2:22:51

Who cares?

SPEAKER_02 2:22:52

Right. That's right. You got anything else?

SPEAKER_01 2:22:59

I think that's it.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:00

You have anything else that you'd like you anything that comes to mind to share?

Good Morning God And Final Charge

SPEAKER_05 2:23:07

My uh going back to being the child of God thing, my daughter, Savannah, who she's a she's a camp this week. She's a sophomore. She we were on a I was on a work trip and um she had learned like a little Diddy from BSF, Bible study fellowship. And we were so we were in the hotel room and I was at this conference, maybe up in Boston or something. And um, like I'm like trying to be super quiet so everyone will sleep. And uh I mean I don't know what time it was, maybe 5, 5:30 a.m. She just like sat straight up in her bed. And uh I won't sing it for you, but I'll can't voice, but I'll say the words, which is she sat up in her bed and she said, Good morning, God. This is your day. I am your child, show me your way. And I was like, that is great. So if you can start off your day like that, uh it doesn't matter where you work, it doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter. Like, I mean, I love my job, so I feel like it's just um undeserved grace. That it's super fun what I do. I mean, I do it for a lot less money. Don't tell my boss, I do it for a lot less money. But it's fun, it's fun to me. Um, I think I'm, I mean, I like teaching, I like delivering babies, I like counseling, talking to patients, that's the best. But it doesn't matter what profession you're on. If I think if you start your day with that you're God's child and um ask him to show show you the way that day, uh he's gonna give you like he doesn't ever disappoint. Like he's gonna give you opportunities. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:45

It's good.

SPEAKER_01 2:24:46

Yeah, it's so good.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:48

I really appreciate it. This was last minute, and this was a big ask, and you said yes. You seem to me like the kind of guy that will say yes, though. So my goodness. Me and Adam are not good at saying no. You usually you can usually identify other people that are not good. Oh my goodness. That's a big character flaw, my wife tells me not able to say no. It's a character flaw, but it's also a strength. You know, your strengths and weaknesses run in the same vein.

SPEAKER_05 2:25:12

Exactly right. I know my parents are probably thinking the same thing when I was going crazy raising homing pigeons. Raising homing pigeons.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:19

12 years old making wedding money. So great. The story was awesome. All right, well, appreciate it.

Outro And How To Support

SPEAKER_00 2:25:28

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