Fear God, Lead Well | Interview with Brody Holloway

Great ministries aren't built around one personality. They're built on humble leaders who are committed to the mission. In this episode, Brooke Lovingoode interviews Brody and JB to talk about developing healthy leadership, raising up the next generation, handling feedback with humility, and why caring more about God's glory than personal credit creates a ministry that lasts.

Whether you lead a church, ministry, or team, you'll walk away with practical encouragement on leading with humility, investing in others, and staying rooted in Christ when the pressure is on.

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Transcript

Welcome And Setting The Question

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

I um I don't we don't we really don't need to introduce Brooke because Brooke's been on NSR several times already. But I do want to say that Brooke is a board member. She is not the newest board member at uh Snowboard Outfitters, but she's a board member, been on the board about a year now, right? So um sometime I'd like to maybe do an episode where we talk about what is the board of directors, because you hear that about all these different organizations. And I think our board is is not unique, but our board is is they do it right. Like we operate with a function, a healthy functioning board that I think uh provides the right balance of oversight, but letting us do our thing, stepping in where they need to, speaking into it. And um, but anyway, Brooke is in one sense my boss. I love that. So this will be fun.

SPEAKER_05 1:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

I gotta make sure I do good at my job today.

SPEAKER_05 1:25

I'll review him next August.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Okay, that's good. Um, yeah, so uh we're gonna we're just gonna dive into a conversation, and um this actually was your idea. And so, and I don't really know where we're going. Brooke's gonna kind of lead this conversation. I'm excited about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:43

So Okay, well, love being here.

Why Humility Shapes Snowbird’s Culture

SPEAKER_05 1:46

And um I was telling Brady and JB, one of my kind of favorite things every time I come to Snowbird and see the leadership here, and I've gotten to see it from all different angles, being a camper, growing up, coming, working on staff two summers, then uh bringing a church here. So the partnership between the church and and leadership here, and then now being on the board, it's just such a healthy place behind the scenes. And it and there's flaws and there's issues and there's ways to grow, but the culture is healthy. And so my mind just every time I'm here is like grasping at what's causing that? Like, why is God continuing to bless this place? Why is God continuing to work in ways that are so amazing here? And Brody and I did a podcast on encouragement a couple, that's probably a year ago now or so. Um, and you know, that was kind of an aspect of leadership here that I think maybe if you weren't more behind the scenes, you don't know that there's a culture of encouragement that's really led by Brody and the senior leadership here. And so today I I wanted listeners to be able to hear another aspect of culture here, which is the humility of leadership, especially at the top, especially with Brody, especially with the senior leaders, that I think is such a reason why God has blessed this place. Um, I think of uh James 4, 6, he gives more grace. Therefore, it says God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble. It's like if if you don't humble yourself, God is. But if you humble yourself, God actually raises you up and blesses humility and looks for humility. And um, I've just from all the different seats, I've been able to see snowbird leadership in a humble and confident way has been like a key part of that. So I would love to hear from you, Brody. Um, what does where has that come from? What does that look like for you? I mean, you have founded this place, you've poured your life into this place, but I think anybody here would say you lead confidently, but this ministry isn't centered around you. Like it's not run just on Brody. There's other people you're gonna see and interact with. And um, I would love to just hear maybe some backstory on

Building A Ministry Beyond One Face

SPEAKER_05 4:00

that.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Um yeah, there it's it's very simple. It's very there is definitely backstory to that, but it's very simple. I just have had watched and have continued to see so many, so many ministries sort of get attached to or associated with one guy's face and name to where like I could name some churches right now that are like the big churches. And I could name some ministries right now that are like the big ministries, and you would automatically, or a lot of our listeners would automatically know one name that's associated with that organization or that church. And it would it would be the pastor who has a social media presence, or it would be the CEO or the leader, whatever. And I from the beginning, the calling I felt was the vision and the calling was to build Snowbird into what Snowbird is, and that people would know this ministry, what we're about, but that they wouldn't associate my name and face or anybody's name and face with it. And that's not to say that if somebody comes and sits through a week of camp, I'm gonna they're gonna hear from me four or five times, but they're gonna hear from two to three times that many more people. So like I I would dare to say a lot of people that come and go at a week of snowbird, they're gonna remember their the the person they connected with on a personal level, which is gonna which is gonna be part of them sort of having this memory of snowbird or this association with what snowbird is that's not gonna be attached to the person in leadership or something like that. Um when you don't care who gets the credit, and you'll hear any good leader will say this. John G talked about it interviewed him.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

When when you don't care who gets the credit, you are on, you are literally I'll now I'll say I say this a little different than he did, but it's the same principle. When you don't care who gets the credit, your little choo-choo train just turned into a freight train that is gonna barrel down the tracks and and and cover so much ground and make so much impact and hit so many people and go through so many destination points. If you don't care who gets the credit, let's just drive this thing in the direction God's calling us to drive it. I think I saw enough ministries early on run into problem because run into problems because the guy, the face, the name, always remain the guy, the face, the name. And then he either gets old and dies, or there's moral failure. I remember I know one organization where the guy got old and died, and then the next guy comes in and has moral failure. So now you got this double whammy.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Unfortunately, I feel like that is like tale as old as time. Like I feel like I've heard that over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

The moral failure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:53

Or like the main guy dies, the sun rises, or like the predecessor rises, and then it's like kind of a mess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

It is it literally is a tale as old as time because you see it with King David and Solomon. And then and then and there's failure, but then from Solomon to his sons, and there's the split between his boys. Um and I think there's a principle there. If you don't okay, like if Moses Holloway wanted to, you know, if someday by some miraculous move of guts, Mo ends up, you know, going down this path. Mo would have had it all handed to him in one degree. So you go back to the episode we did with Layle, the porta potty princess. I think Laylee's an effective asset at Snowbird because from the time she was 13 or 14, she was doing the crap jobs of Snowbird, scrubbing down Porta Johns, washing dishes. Juju's now working in the kitchen washing dishes. If Mo is gonna go down that path, it starts with this summer, he's running a weed eater. They're gonna do the low-level grunt work that nobody gets to see. But it's hard to for a second generation leader to do that. It's not impossible. There's ministries that do it well. There's some ministries that ha have done it well and are doing it well. But yeah, like so you want to build a ministry that will outlive you regardless of who takes it, who takes your seat. Like I have the guy in mind that's gonna take my seat. He's here now, and no, and 90% of the people out there would go, really? Like, yeah. And I think um I think that when you build a ministry around a single personality, and then that personality's gone for whatever reason, you have an identity crisis in that ministry. But if that ministry has its own personality and culture and DNA, and everyone else is driving that, then the personality of the ministry is sort of the sum total of different personalities and giftings, and that's why the way the church is supposed to work in the, you know, in in scripture. So then when one person's gone, you don't feel it, it just keeps filling in, and the mission always goes forward. So you need a defined mission, you need defined core values, and um, we know what we're about at Snowbird. You're asking, I mean, everybody at this table knows this, everybody behind the camera knows this, but you could ask anybody here, you could ask one of JB's element girls, hey, tell us what Snowbird's about. Boom. I would let somebody come in for a tour, they're gonna get a tour. This is a potential $10 million donor. I'm fine with JB saying, yeah, let me pick one of my girls to to have the first 30 minutes with them. I'd be like, that'd be great. Yeah. Yeah. What better, what better, what better advertisement for the ministry?

SPEAKER_03 9:39

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Because the guy at the top, that's what he does. They sit down with the CEO and like, yeah, that guy ought to be able to spin it. Sit down with a 17-year-old that's been mopping and serving salad all summer. And she can go, yeah, here's the mission of Snowbird, boom, boom, boom, boom, here's how we accomplish it, boom, boom, and to a man, to a woman, everybody here gets it.

SPEAKER_05 9:59

Yeah. I call this like um humble confidence. That's like the phrase. And and as I've as I've led in ministry, but also just as I've been a mom, like I don't think this is just the founder of a ministry thing, you know, like humble confidence being because you can go two directions in the wrong way. You can say, well, I don't want it to be all about me. And so then there's this fear to lead, this fear to own, this fear to like take charge. And no, God has called me to this thing, this role, this path, this ministry, this thing. But then the other side is this arrogance of this thing is mine. And and that I think with you is what sticks out to me because I mean, y'all have talked about this on here, the early years of Snowbird, when you hear what Brody and Little put into this place, like not taking a salary, not, you know, just living, living out there on the land, just asking God to bring people.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

I don't think people like understand truly. Like just the other day, one of the element kids was like, So what did he ask you? Where did you live? They thought you lived in the barn for like a week or something, and you're like, No, I live, I lived there for three years. And then, you know, even him and little building Freedom Cabin, yeah, like by hand, selling Creek Rock to get money. Like, I don't think people really know like the hard work of that. But sorry, Kigo.

SPEAKER_05 11:24

No, I mean it's so true. If you really think about that and how you could see the temptation, maybe for someone to say, Well, I've given everything to this. This is all about me. Like, and I'm not giving any ownership to other people because A, I've poured my life here to give ownership to other people is to give them trust. And what if they do something crazy with this? But you have just done the exact opposite. You've literally had a humble, confident leadership. You're not afraid to lead, but you're also not afraid to give up leadership. So talk to me about identifying talent around you. Like that's a big thing here at Snowbird, I've noticed. The team here is just crazy. My husband and I were talking about it on the way to our cabin last night. He was like, he had got to talk to Muggs and Hank, and he was like, How'd Brody get them here? You know, just identifying maybe weaknesses of yours or things you know could strengthen it and not being afraid to develop and bring on talent that might take some of your face or your fame in some ways. Talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Um,

Hiring Strength To Cover Weakness

SPEAKER_01 12:29

yeah, there's, you know, an important like I think it's a business leadership principle, maybe from like, I don't know, like Henry Ford or one of those guys. I don't remember who. And I heard a quote, and I'm not gonna get the quote right, and I'm not gonna cite the right person, but it was something to the effect of you need to build a team where when you're all at the table, you realize you're probably the weakest guy in the room in terms of your credentials and abilities. And I don't know, I heard that early on, and I was like, that's what I want to do. I want I want to get a team because I think also you need to have you need to have a realistic understanding of your strengths and do that not so you can boast in those strengths, but so you can recognize your weaknesses. So I think the key piece to the the one of the main reasons I need to know my strengths is so I can know my weaknesses. And so when I go, okay, I think this comes natural to me, or I enjoy this and I I see people respond well to this, but man, I struggle here. Um I need to get somebody here that can that can you know create a strength in this area that I struggle. So if this team as this team grows, if the team just grows on one person, then the ministry is gonna have the strengths of that one person, and the ministry is gonna have the weaknesses of that one person. If the organization is gonna grow strong, then the person that's leading at that time, little and I, and her dad even, he and I were so similar, we had a lot of the same weaknesses. And I think um when when it was you know about 10 years in, and it was like evident that he was sort of on the way out about four 13 or 14 years in. So we're 29 years old now. So at about the 13-year mark, he was he was moving out. He had health issues, he was getting he was getting older, and he was like, I don't know how long do this. He had some personal issues he was just working through, and and I remember having a conversation with him where I said, all right, I'm gonna start looking to to to build the executive, the leadership team. And immediately in my mind, I'm going, I'm not gonna get another guy like him. That's too much like me. I've got to get a guy, we've got these big gaps in our game that I can't close. And so again, it's pretty simple. Just like, yeah, I need to, I need to get somebody here. I'm real, I really am bad at X, Y, and Z, and I need to get somebody that's good at X, Y, and Z. And the things that I'm probably good at, I've never thought I'm really good at that. I thought, I can do that, I can, I can handle that part and do okay. Like, I think there's, you know, eating a big slice of humble pie every morning is pretty good. And and where you think you're the best at something, I think it's important to find people that are a lot better at it than you, so then you realize, you know, I was like, I'm I'm the tallest dwarf in Middle Earth. Uh, you know, I don't need to brag about that. You know what I mean? Yeah like I'm really tall. Yeah. And then you realize, oh, I've been living around dwarves in Middle Earth all my life. And then I'll get to the elf village or whatever, and I'm like, oh, I'm really short. You know, and so people like to surround themselves with people that are shorter and whatever stature than them. Like I'm the I'm the funniest, I'm the strongest, I'm the tallest, I'm the best looking, I'm the this, I'm the da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And so if I surround myself with people that I think are inferior to me in those categories, then it gives me an inflated sense of of worth and value and importance. And exaggerated, uh Kahuna used to say, yeah, don't have an exaggerated opinion of your own importance. I was like, ooh, that's good. I'm gonna remember that. Don't have an exaggerated opinion of your own importance. You know, I had another guy tell me one time, if you, if you get, if you get hit out here in a four-lane tomorrow and end up a grease spot in the highway, 24 hours later, ain't nobody gonna remember you as ever on this earth. You know, like you just need to know that. You're gonna you're gonna come, you're gonna go, you're gonna die, you're gonna be gone. And so how do we how do we build something that outlives us and outlasts us and is bigger than ourselves? These are catchphrases you hear people use. I want to be part of something bigger than myself. I want to build something that outlasts me. Well, to do that, you better deal with those weaknesses and you better appropriate and have a like a recognize your strengths are not probably as strong as you think they are, or as your biggest fans tell you they are. So I think healthy comparison, you need healthy comparison. Where I think I'm a good leader, I need to look at people that do it a lot better than me. And where I know I have, I need, I need to be transparent with myself and know the areas of my weakness, and I need to get people in here that'll that'll overwhelm those weaknesses with their strengths. Then we can build an organization that um that is healthy across the board. Did that answer your question?

SPEAKER_05 17:23

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think you staff well to your weakness, but I also I want you to to maybe give some thought to this.

Letting Young Leaders Try And Fail

SPEAKER_05 17:33

You develop young people very intentionally. Like that's a huge part of my story, is you. My first summer, I had had one chance before coming to Snowbird to teach the Bible at my Christian high school. And I felt like, okay, wow, that was something I really loved doing, but I had no framework for what that looked like. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, I get here, it's like staff training. I it's my, well, what this might have been my second summer, actually. Anyways, and I called my mom one day and I'm like, man, I would love to help with this girls' night thing that they're doing and just see if this is something I would like to do. And I remember her saying, well, just go ask somebody. I'm like, you don't just go ask somebody to take like a session at Snowbird.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

It was your second summer.

SPEAKER_05 18:20

It was my second summer. So I just follow my mom's advice and I walk up to Brody and I'm like, Hey, would you ever like consider letting me do this? And Brody's just like a yes man. And he's like, sure. And I'll never forget, like, it's a key pivotal moment. Like it could make me get emotional in my ministry life, is me and Brody sitting with my like 10-page outline in the metal building, him putting his glasses on me, like handing him my outline, and him just being like, Okay, well, this is about 55 minutes worth of content. Like, but him walking me through it. And then he came and listened to my first week and he gave me feedback. And I'm at that point a girl that's not necessarily gonna stay at Snowbird long term. Like, there's not necessarily this innate value I'm gonna bring him, but he gave me that time and energy. And it is a key part of my story because people were able to hear that teaching, and from there, my ministry kind of looked different after that point. And so I know that's your story too, JB, with him, just how he's giving you opportunities and uh speak to that. Like you give young people chances that aren't gonna do it well at the start, you know, and probably could even really fail in some ways. Why is that significant? Why, why invest energy there?

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Um, well, first I because I think it's biblical. I think the biblical model, like Paul's investment in Timothy and Titus, they were young men, and he, I think he gave them the opportunity to fail. I'm not scared of you failing on a Wednesday night session because I already know that God's not gonna let Snowbird fail. So if you come up there and botch a Wednesday night, we'll be fine. Kids, man, I can hit a home run, best sermon ever preached in the next day. Have a kid say, Hey, do you work here?

SPEAKER_05 20:16

Hey, are you Zach?

SPEAKER_01 20:19

You know, that you know, it it kind of goes both ways. The best messages you ever deliver, there's a big percentage of them that are gonna go, they're not, you know, and so you can get up there and lay a big old doo-doo sandwich. Kind of like they're not gonna take a bite of it, you know, they're not gonna they're gonna miss it. So, you know, it's like uh unless the Lord builds the house, we labor in vain. The me investing in you two or any young people, that's the Lord building the house. That's not vanity, that's not a labor of vanity, that's a labor of growth and development. And when I'm dead and gone, you'll have developed or be developing the next generation. That's how the church has triumphantly marched through the ages. But um, but me trying to micromanage every session and be the guy up front, that's me building the house. And I don't want to build anything in vanity. So if we labor in vain, it'll fall in vain. If we if we labor um in in that mindset of humility and like, yeah, the Lord is building this house, and part of what he's called us to, part of this, part of this answer goes to he's called us, he's called like I feel like I'm confident of a few things in my life. Not a lot. I'm a confident person, I think, but I think my confidence comes from that I'm a pretty simple minded person, like I don't I don't complicate things. Um so I don't I don't struggle with a lot of like a lack of confidence because I'm just like oh God called me this, so it's gonna work out. Like my faith is pretty simple. Um, but then I'm confident that when I'm investing in y'all and and and younger people, that God's gonna bless that. I have a hundred percent confidence, even if you you know, swing and miss a time or two here and there. And um, and if you identify somebody, like if I go, okay, like I see in JB early on, this this kid's got a gift. Like you gotta, I think a a key piece of leadership is you gotta be able to identify people's giftings and immediately, like I never when I identify a gifting in someone like JB, I don't like it's foreign to me to think of feeling threatened by that. I think a lot of leaders do. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_05 22:47

To me, like that is that is as foreign to me as shooting up heroin or talking to demons, like you know, like threatened or lazy, like, oh, I see this, but like, uh, I don't really have the time to like, yeah, you know, that's anyways, keep going.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah, I see, I see a gifting like that, and I'm going, oh, oh man, oh, this is gonna be good. Like, this is gonna be good. This girl's getting ready to, she's gonna be used of God, you know. This young man has got a crazy amount of potential. How do we work to get not just to mine that out of this person, but to give them the right balance of confidence, but nervousness as they're moving forward, you know?

SPEAKER_04 23:29

Um, I also think it's crazy. Like sometimes I'll sit and reflect and be like, a couple of years ago, I had never edited a podcast ever. And then Brody and Austin were like, hey, we trust you to do this. And so to that, like it's so cool and humbling for me, and like just cool to see this organization be like, hey, we trust a 22-year-old kid to take this ministry that we've been working at for so long that Brody has literally built, you know. But I think that ultimately just goes back to what you're saying of like, I trust the Lord and I know that the Lord's not gonna let this fail. And let's say JB flops and falls on her face and botches NSR, like that's not gonna stop the train, you know. Like, we're gonna, if if JB needs to get a slap on the wrist and like be harnessed in a way, then yeah, we're gonna keep moving. But if it's also okay, JB needs to split and not work here anymore, like best wishes, like, you know, I've seen that over and over again too. Of like, we have, or I'm saying we, not really me, but like leadership here at Snowbird has given people opportunities and sometimes it is too much, or sometimes they do fall on their face or like make a mess of things. And I do really appreciate that, like um not reconciliation, but what's the word I'm looking for? Repent. Thank you. What? Classic. Classic repent. But like I really appreciate that too, and it almost relieves a lot of pressure of like, I have to be perfect. No, I know if I mess up or I fall on my face or you know, something happens. I know leadership here isn't gonna be like, you're fired. Like they're gonna try to work with me and you know, talk through that because ultimately I also know that they are looking out for my soul health, like my spiritual health, you know. Right. I think that's a big part of like, I don't know, just this ministry and something that I've seen a lot.

SPEAKER_05 25:16

And that's everywhere here. Like there are so many young leaders with a lot of responsibility here that are thriving and that also have failed. And it's so it's not just the two of us at this table. It's like it's a it's a culture here, which I think is so, so cool to me and unique.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Yeah, I think uh I'm not scared of failure. I mean, I'm I'm I'm scared of failure, but I'm not scared of making mistakes. So we can make mistakes along the way, and you know, how we respond to those. When when a person, when a young man or young woman makes a makes a big mistake, I think there's a huge moment there that's pivotal in their life where I can teach them right now with a lot of grace and uh and a it's gonna be fine. It's not a big deal. If they see that I'm not worried about it, it's gonna be fine. That's gonna really have a positive impact on them, or you could really alter someone's direction by coming down on too hard or making a mistake. And so I but the yeah, the bottom line for me, it all it all goes back to I don't care who gets the credit for anything, and um, ultimately I want the Lord to be glorified. And I love it when nobody gets the big credit for the ministry, but then we celebrate wins and accomplishments. And JB's part of the medium production team, and and Andrew, that team is they are savages, man. They work like dogs and they run hard and they, but they are high capacity. They they fly in the face of what people think the stereotype of this generation is. They're high capacity people. They show up on time, they stay late, they get more done in a day than most people get done in a day. And so, man, I want to celebrate that. You know, like I'm sell, I'm all about celebrating that. But but what happens is to the 6,000 people, 7,000 people are gonna come through this summer, what they're gonna see is the product, they're not gonna know the people that are doing it, you know, and nobody cares. Because when you don't care who gets the credit, what you end up with is an awesome experience for everybody at the table and everybody that's coming to partake in this. So I think that's a big deal. And that so that principle is real big to me. The second one is um, so you don't care who gets the credit, and the second one is if if if we build the house, we build it in vain. But if God's building the house, then it's gonna stand. So I'm not trying to build anything in vanity and I'm not trying to micromanage. And I want to put people in positions and let them make mistakes. You learn from your mistakes. You learn conflict resolution, you learn how to have hard conversations. I might, I might get after you over something, you know? Like, what are you doing, man? What were you thinking? But I'm gonna, but that's gonna come like if I have to get after somebody, at that point, they should already be confident of that I love them and care about them, you know, because that's that's gonna be pretty rare and few and far between.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

And I'd also add, like, if that does happen or when that does happen, it's never like Brody is now keeping tabs on you and is like now keeping the score. It's like he's gonna get after you and hope that you you hear the message and then he's moved on. He's not, unless it keeps coming up, you know. But like I think that's also a really key and good aspect that like helps me be able to lead in this ministry of confidence of like, okay, I know me and Bertie have a conversation about something, he's not then keeping score after he's gonna move on and you know, expect the best out of me, which almost allows me and all the other leaders here to like floor it, flourish because of that.

SPEAKER_05 28:54

I feel like you can you can identify yourself as someone who's humble and confident if you're someone who is developing others. Like if that's a mark of your life and you're not scared to share the stage, to share the whatever, you know, okay, my identity is pretty secure here. Like God is God has worked in this area. And if I am petrified to let somebody else do something, I feel like that is a great indicator of like there is some identity work for you to do there. You know, I think of Jesus. I mean, he had these 12 crazy guys that he chose and trained and developed, and they failed so bad and they were so dumb at times, you know. But you look at like he had a team model. He he was the guy and he still recognized like I'm going to heaven. These are the guys that are gonna do the work. And just not him not even being afraid to give things away, I think is like such a beautiful model for us,

Leading With Accountability Before Jesus

SPEAKER_05 29:54

you know. Okay, talk to me about when you have made mistakes, when you have failed, um, maybe areas that you have felt insecure over the years of your leadership. I I told you this example in our last board meeting. Um, I had, I had asked some question. I don't even remember the details of all this. And you had responded, like in the room, you had responded. And I think you perceived your response as like maybe a little, a little arrogant or prideful. We all kept talking. I didn't have a single thought about it. Brody steps back into the conversation and he goes, Hey, I just want to. So in the in the snowbird board meeting, he goes, Hey, I just want to um, I want to just apologize for how I just said that. And I was like, I honestly had not thought a thing about how you had said it, but just the fact that you in that room of your bosses are humbling yourself and saying, like, hey, I could have just gotten that wrong, my tone or the way that I it just I've seen you do that in in many rooms. And then maybe on bigger scales, knowing like, hey, I really fumbled here or messed up here. Where does this humble confidence come in in in those scenarios and mistakes and conflicts and the ability to apologize? What does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Okay, if in the history of NSR, if I've ever gotten emotional, it will happen in what I'm hearing to say.

SPEAKER_05 31:21

That was my whole goal today.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

I think we'll be all right. I think we'll be all right. I slept five hours last night, so I'm well rested.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Good, good.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

I have every single day of my life, I have this driving like um motivation that I need Rob here to tell a joke. There's going to be a point in my existence where I'm going to look at Jesus in the eyes. And I'm gonna give an account. And I there is nothing I have ever wanted in my life more than to hear him say well done. Because he's gonna say one of two things Well done, or yeah, you did all that stuff, but I never knew you. That's the only two things the Bible tells us he's gonna say. And when I think about that moment, my 70 years on earth or whatever God gives me is gonna all be condensed down to a three-second conversation. That three seconds motivates me in every single decision I make, every single conversation I have. There's gonna be a point where I'm gonna stand before the Lord and and and and I'm gonna give an account. Yeah, so I'm gonna give an account for how I treat a 20-year-old that makes a mistake. I'm gonna answer to Jesus for that. Because I ain't that kid's boss, God, Messiah. I'm their I'm their under-shepherd for a season of their life. And I'm gonna answer to God for it. And so and this came this came this came into focus for me one time when someone had said something to one of my one of my kids, and I went and confronted it. It was a grown man. And I and I only ever did this one time. I was never I always wanted my kids to deal with their own conflict resolution, and so if they made a mistake, I wanted them to give an account for it and and correct it, make it right. And there were times where I would go, and there's I'm dealing with a situation right now with with uh one of my kids where we've got to address an issue with a with someone, and I go, I'm going with him. It's it's with my youngest, I'm gonna go with him, and we're gonna address the situation where where someone was offended by one of his my son's actions, and I said, You're gonna go reconcile, make this right, but I'm gonna be standing right behind you. And you got all the weight and force of the Holloway name literally standing behind you. But you're gonna speak, you're gonna give an account, and you're gonna you're gonna own up this. And I feel like if I'm faithful to the Lord, when I'm standing there saying, hey, I'm wrong, I own, I gotta own this. I've got the weight of the throne of heaven like standing right behind me because that honors the Lord. But if I but if I don't accept responsibility for an action or I, you know, I I'm I'm defensive or I'm aggressive, I don't believe I have the, I don't, I don't think God supports me in that. I don't think the Lord's supporting me in that. I don't think the Spirit's leading me in that. But I had this one situation where I went and confronted something. And when I confronted it with this, with this person, this grown man over one of my kids, I said, I'm gonna tell you something. You're about to see something that you have never imagined seeing from another man. Like I've done I did this one time my whole life. I said, because that's that's my son or daughter, I'll leave it super vague. That's my son, that's my daughter, and you've you've you've done something now that I see as a threat to who I want them to become. This is the key piece. It's not you bullied bullied my kid or you did something. It was I've got my son on a trajectory that I have a deep conviction that God has me to have him on, and you, you have attacked that trajectory, and you're not gonna stand in the way of where he's going. And so I'll I'll move, I'll get you out of the way. You know, it was a it was this intense conversation. And I always think everybody that Christ has redeemed and saved, you, JB, Andrew, God has got you on a trajectory, and I better get on board with that and figure out what's gonna drive you into glory and make you better for it for having known me and or served with me or under me, or God's gonna get me out of the way and make you the woman or man he wants you to be. I want to be an asset to what God's doing in that person's life. But yeah, the thing that motivates me more than anything else, and I do, man, I get so emotional if I haven't thought about it, and then I say it is I I want to hear God say to me, I want to hear Jesus say to me, Well done. You know, and there's so much grace in, you know, to the to your question. You see these men and women, they're jars of clay, Paul says to the Corinthians. Like you're, I think it's Corinthians, you're literally jars of clay. You're fragile, you're carrying this timeless, unbreakable message in a fragile clay pot. That's what we are. And and you watch how God deals with Peter's failures because those guys, Jesus is investing in those guys, like what you were mentioning a while ago, Brooke. He's growing this team that he's gonna build a church with these guys. And they're fighting over who gets to sit at the right hand.

SPEAKER_05 37:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Because they think he's getting ready to like re-establish David's throne in Jerusalem. They're like, ah, again, I sit on the, I want to shotgun. I'm calling shotgun in the throne room, you know. And Jesus is like, oh my gosh, you know, they don't get it. But they will. It's bless their hearts. We'll get there. And so I think Jesus had to have a sense of humor about it at times, but then what those guys accomplished when they began to mature and grow and become the men and women God wanted them to be, you look at the impact that that group of men and women, that 120 men and women that was with them at the you know, at the ascension, it changed the world. And so I like to think of what a person I like to look at these 17, 19, 21-year-old people that are here working and know in a minute they're gonna be 40-year-old parents. They'll have built businesses, led ministries, and they're raising the next generation. I'm not investing right now just in a 20-year-old. I'm investing in a 40-year-old, a 60 year old, and then the next generation, a 20, 40. It's like we're doing kingdom work, you know? And that's where there is no room for there's no room for like arrogance or pride, or look at me, I'm the guy. Like, that's there's no room for that. There's not if we're gonna drive the mission forward, you

A Practical Takeaway: Fix Your Gaze

SPEAKER_01 38:35

know?

SPEAKER_05 38:35

Yeah. Well, and you what you're saying, I think is just under it all. Like if you're listening to this thinking, oh, I'm a leader that really struggles with my pride, or I'm a leader that's drowning in insecurity. Because you can just fluctuate, you know, and and people have dispositions in one way or the other a little bit more, but a high view of God, a high view of Jesus daily, I think is what just centers you. Because like one of the things I try and do every morning, especially in this new season of motherhood where I just feel like my time is so little, is if I can Little was talking about this last night at the girls' um session, but if I can just get, if I don't get it super in-depth time in the word every single morning, if I can get 10 minutes where I just slow my mind down and gaze on him, think about him, like picture Jesus on the cross for me, like my sin crushing him. When I step out of that 10 minutes to do whatever my day holds, whether it's as mundane as change a poopy diaper and make eggs, or go lead a really awesome women's thing at Watkinsville. My focus is so aligned. Like, and so if if you're struggling with that, I would say start with your view of him. Like, what does he look like to you? How big is he to you? And what Brady's saying that's driving him is just that that picture of that moment of Jesus is so worth it to me that it's not a big deal to apologize in a board meeting at all because Jesus is the guy. I'm not the guy. And I look at him daily and see that. And I feel like that can be a really, really practical takeaway from this is just get your eyes on Christ over and over again as a leader and whatever role you have.

SPEAKER_04 40:27

Yeah. Something that at least it's been a theme for me this summer. But Bertie has said it a couple of times in like staff church, but Alistair Beg, the quote from Alistair Beg uh, be yourself but lose yourself. And I feel like he's spoken that into my life, and I've seen it obviously in his life, and that's super helpful because it's like, okay, be yourself. You don't have to change, right? You don't have to act a certain way, but also lose yourself to the mission, like lose yourself in submission to the Lord. And that's ultimately like the goal, you know. When I get up on stage, I don't need to act like someone I'm not I'm not, but I also don't have to put all this pressure on myself because I know like I have the Lord in me. And if I'm submitting to that, I know He will speak through me and use me, you know. But I think that's been a pretty cool theme this year.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I I talked to Element this morning and you were over here, y'all were setting up for this, but uh I I shared that with him this morning. Like I drove a little bit into that. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 41:22

Yeah, we have a a guy at Watkinsville that will come in and kind of regularly teach our teachers and just like train, train a group of us on communication and stuff. And he does this really cool exercise where he it's like he makes us create a name tag. So I would write Brooke. And then he makes you think of like the time in your life where you're most yourself. Like go with your three or four, not that you have best friends, Brody, due to our last conversation. Your three or four closest companions in life.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Or you listen to that.

SPEAKER_05 41:54

Yes, I did literally two days ago when you said that. I was like, I gotta hear what he said. Um yeah, you asking Brody Holloway who his best friend was. But he was like, What? Anyways, but go with the people in life you're closest with in your brain, you're around the campfire, you're cooking hot dogs, you're just yourself. What are like three adjectives they would describe you as? And write those down. And so we like spend some time with that. And you know, for me, I wrote like goofy, encouraging, and I can't remember my third, but he was basically saying, as a communicator, that's what you should sound like. Like you should sound like who you most are around the people you're most comfortable with. But I think sometimes with this leadership conversation we're having, you you almost begin to want to copy people, like, oh, I want to sound like this woman when I teach, I want to sound like this guy, I want to take her style. And you can learn and glean from them. But I do think a part of being a humble, confident leader is just being yourself. Like, who are you? Be you. There's nobody like you. And God's made you uniquely wired, and it's not all about you, but if you try and become something you're not, like it's so inauthentic, you know? Yep. So God's just made you that way. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

And and then as a leader, I want to really celebrate. Like, if you look at our teaching team, which is you two, you're I think you're on there as a teacher, because you teach at respond every year. You two, Brittany Reagan, any other girls? Little. Oh, the little it's a big one. Sorry, mama. My bad. Sorry, mama.

SPEAKER_04 43:33

Anna Rose. Um sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Yeah, you look at you look at that teaching team, and then on the guy's side, Rob Spencer, Zach, me.

SPEAKER_04 43:44

Well Rob Spencer, Zach. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Hank speaks Hank will teach at some of the men's events.

SPEAKER_04 43:51

Harry, sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

If you look at all that, there ain't two no two people in that bunch. Talk the same, walk the same. Act the same, look the same, communicate the same. There is an individuality to all those people, and yet they all are driving the exact same thing when they stand on that stage and speak. Like we're there's a cohesiveness to what we're doing. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 44:16

Yeah. Okay.

Handling Feedback Without Getting Defensive

SPEAKER_05 44:18

So you I want to talk about feedback, getting feedback.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 44:22

I feel like Snowbird gets high volumes of feedback due to just the amount of people that come through here. Um and even though you're in senior leadership here, Brody, I feel like you have constant conversations, whether it's like a youth pastor giving good and bad feedback, or whether it's a staffer, former staffer, or talk to me about how you handle receiving feedback, good or bad, sifting through it, knowing as a leader, what do I take? What do I not let crush me? And handling that with humble confidence. Cause I think you can really like leaders can really mess up here when feedback comes. It's it's just like such a personal thing that you can't even really see it clearly. Talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Um, okay. I heard Billy Graham say one time he was being interviewed on um like on ABC. Like one of the networks. He's been interviewed and he said the guy was interviewing him, he said something like, you know, you've preached to 80 million people, 380 million, whatever, million people. Say it was 80 million people. It was a crazy number. I mean, an insane number of people. 80 million people you've preached to them. And he said, and I've and this guy, who's like the guy at ABC News, you know, 2020 or whatever the show was, and he said, I have never ever met someone that had a negative thing to say about Billy Graham. And and this guy I don't think is a believer. This interview was in like the early 90s, and he and Billy Graham was so he was getting up in years, and he said, and I still I'm watching this. I'm just I'm watching it on TV somewhere, and it stands out to me now 25 years later. And he said, um, what would you do? It was kind of two things. What would you do? How do you respond to negativity? He said, because there doesn't seem to be much. So I would think someone like you, when they get negative feedback, if 80 million people are saying you're good to go, and then one person says something negative, it's probably pretty easy for you to I would imagine it's easier for you just to go, I'm gonna discard that. So that was the one question. And Billy Graham answered it two ways that I thought were so humble, and I've tried to emulate these two things for my whole life when I get negative feedback, especially, but also when I get positive feedback. He said, Okay, first off, if 80 million people think I'm great, I go through the checkout line at Engels grocery store and the kid behind the counter don't even know who I am. You don't have to go far to get humbled. You want to get humbled, just realize how many people don't even know you exist. Eight billion people on the planet, how many of them know you? He's like, there, you ain't got anything to be proud of when it comes to your own personal identity and accomplishments, right? Only what's done for Christ will last. But he said the second thing, and this is so that's been good for me, because and that's where when we're doing staff training, I teach our staff, don't ever, if kids are wanting me to sign a book or sign their Bible or write a note, don't come up and make light of that situation. Just so would have staff come up and go, Oh, you're famous. Can I get my picture? I'm like, what you've just done is made that kid feel very like um diminished. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 47:54

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Like they're they're in a moment where this is, for whatever reason, God has given me this moment of favor with this kid where they care what I have to say, they care what I'm gonna write. That is a gift from the Lord. Let's steward it well. You come up and make a joke right then, you may not be working here by the end of the day. Because what you've done is you've just belittled that child. You think you're making a joke at me. I don't care. I can handle it. But I but I also know that I don't have, I'm I'm not a big person because this kid wants me to sign this Bible. This is a gift from the Lord that's that's saying this kid right now is being impacted by the work and ministry here, so let's celebrate it and steward it well. And so Billy Graham would say, yeah, there might be 80 million people that know me, but there's 7.2 billion that don't, you know, whatever it is. So then the other thing he said is when I, if I got negative feedback, he said, I'm gonna pause, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get alone with that, I'm gonna go before the Lord, I'm gonna consider that negative feedback and figure out what is true and how do I need to make adjustments to become better, to become more faithful in that. And then what is false, and and I need to not let it become a seed of doubt in my life, and I throw that out. So that's what I do. So if I get positive feedback, I go, okay, that's the favor of the Lord right there. Let's move on. And I and I will say I need that. Yeah. And y'all probably would agree. You know, as a as a communicator, oh yeah, you you kind of, and it's not like you're fishing for compliments, you just pour, you just took your heart and all of your internal organs and flopped them out on the stage. It's the most vulnerable thing to stand up there and do that. And if somebody will just say, Hey, that was solid, yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, you know, zip back. Yeah. So the but so the and that's biblical.

SPEAKER_05 49:51

You need people to come along and affirm what's working. Yeah, like, hey, this is helpful. I mean, I even told you I said in the Monday night session and I texted them after, and I said, that was so good because it was concise for people traveling all day. You know, like that was so I could hold on to that if I had had a long day. And you need to hear that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

So it was it was very helpful because it's what's interesting is you sent me that text, and that's that was the goal of Monday night's approach is okay, it needs to be interesting enough to hook them, short enough to keep them, and practical enough that they remember something. And we got to do that on a Monday night after some people have driven from South Florida on a bus. People have flown to Atlanta and then commuted here. So, yeah, that was real helpful because that was the goal. But then the other piece is if I when I get negative criticism, I'm gonna I'm gonna take it to heart. And if somebody's trying to hurt me and they say something critical and aggressive, it's not gonna, I'm not hurt by that. I'm like, oh, thanks. I'm gonna go sit down, I'm gonna give it to the Lord, I'm gonna say, okay, God, how much of this is true? Because I also don't want to adjust to something that's alive from the enemy, you know. Right. So it just it needs to be considered. But I think what insecure leaders do is they either get mad or they or they just throw it out and ignore it. Right. They're like, ah, you don't know what he's talking about.

SPEAKER_05 51:17

Do you bring other people into that moment? Like, will you share? Hey, I'm I just received this or I heard this. Like, what's true?

SPEAKER_01 51:25

I'll always share it with somebody. Um, if it's if it's sort of like the tone of it is this is a person that's like a super progressive person that's just trying to belittle me. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of answer not a fool according to his folly. But it's interesting in Proverbs, you've got that verse followed by a verse that says, answer a fool according to his folly. And there's like a discretion of when I need to consider and answer and when I need to ignore and move on. But yeah, I'll I'll share it with guys, I'll afford it to people on the teaching team, on the leadership team here and say, hey, guys, smoke this over, tell me what you think. And uh before I respond, I want your input. And that goes back to I'm not gonna input with, I'm not gonna respond to something super critical without the input of the team because how I respond affects JB. It affects Andrew, it affects Muggs. I'm speaking for Snowbird. It's not just about me. Right. Uh so I'm gonna always consider it.

SPEAKER_04 52:26

Um I also think sometimes I've seen this in like every ministry that I've worked with or even friend groups, like, and it's I think more girls do this than men and guys, but if it comes within the ministry. So let's say like me and Brooke are at odds at something, and Brooke calls me out or like says something, then I sometimes will see girls go to other people almost trying to build a team, like get people to take sides, if that makes sense, instead of going to them with actual, like, hey, Brooke brought this to my attention. Like, is it valid? Like, do I need to work on this? But I think I don't know, just be weary and careful of that, of like your intention of why am I taking this to other people and not just trying to like make you choose a side or like pick my team or like back me up, we're going to war against Brooke. You know, right.

SPEAKER_05 53:13

You're taking it to trusted person, yeah, that can think logically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:16

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 53:17

Okay.

Self-Examination And Honest Self-Awareness

SPEAKER_05 53:18

Last, last question, and you know, we can wrap this up how y'all want. But so we have a fairly new executive pastor at Watkinsville, and I've just learned so much from him. And one of the questions he asks us a lot as a staff is like, what is it like to sit on the other side of the table from you in all areas? Like as a mom, as a wife, as a as a minister, what is it like to experience yourself? You know, do you ever really take a second and think, how do I come across? You know, like, are there areas that are really hard for people to experience me in? And it um reminds me of Psalms 139: search me, oh God, know my heart, try me and know my my thoughts. See if there is any grievous way in me and lead me in the way everlasting. It's this like, God, I want my life to be examined by you. I want my life to be changeable and for you to show me areas that might be really hard for other people and might not serve other people or exalt you or glorify you. So we could all three kind of speak to this, but what does it look like as a leader to just examine yourself and genuinely have maybe rhythms where you take a step back and think, I'm struggling here, I'm missing here, I made a mistake here. I I need more leadership over here in my life. And how do you practically let God do that, let others do that, um, and just not live this life that's like unexamined?

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Um, the first step, I love that question. The first step for me in that is it, I tie it back to a previous question. I've surrounded myself with people that are so much better than me at so many things. And so what I'm gonna do is in an area where so I'm I'm I'm very self-critical. I'm not like low self-esteem, I'm just I'm my own most intense critic. And um so when if if there's an area where I feel like I have failed or didn't execute at the right level, um, I'm gonna lean into the fact that I got people around me that are for the sake of the ministry, they'll pick that. That slack is immediately picked up. Not to say like my decisions couldn't really impact and affect Snowbird, but I'm talking about in the sort of the minutiae of being critical of day-to-day the way you're doing things or areas of weakness, blind spots, dark, you know, dark corners. Um I've got I that's where I'm gonna celebrate the things that Hank is so good at. And I'm gonna celebrate the things that Muggs is so good at because they're really good at things that I'm really bad at. And so what it does is it I don't have to fail at the big things because they're succeeding at those things, so I don't have to do them. So the areas I'm failing are typically gonna be areas of just ref we need to continue being refined and getting better at, you know, little things can become big things, but if I'm keeping the little things in front of me, I call it the water polo syndrome. Watch those guys in the Olympics and they're in that pool. It's the craziest sport to me because they swim. You're a swimmer. Jebu's a collegiate swimmer. Like the the pool is crazy to me. Like, if I think about, you know, I look like a silverback gorilla when I walk across my kitchen, you know. You throw me in a pool, I can swim, but it looks like I'm killing ants on the top of the water. Bam, bam, bam, bam. I'm going to pam. I'm swimming. I can go all the way across the lake. But it looks like, what was that? You know, like what was that thrashing? Yeah. And then you watch somebody like JB, somebody that's like a competitive swimming, and it's like beautiful. Bam, bam, bam. You know, and so I feel like I go through life going, oh, bam, bam. You know, it's like I'm I walk in my the other day. My girls, they laugh twice a week, probably at their dad. I walk into my house the other day, Laylee's in her room, Juju's in her room, little's in the living room, and I go, I go to the little hall. All I'm doing is opening the door, the closet door. That's all I'm doing. I gotta get some Tylenol. The old heads hurting. This was Saturday camp it ended. I'm like, I need some Tylenol. I just opened the closet door, and six pictures fell off the wall.

SPEAKER_05 58:03

That's that's what it's like to sit across from you. Like that's you're answering that question. Like, how do people experience big pictures falling off the wall?

SPEAKER_01 58:12

Laylee comes out of her bedroom, Gigi comes out of her bedroom, little comes around the corner, and they're and I think Katie Cousins was there. Maybe Katie, all of a sudden there's all these people in the room, and they're like, we just wanted to come see what was we knew who it was. We just wanted to see what exactly had happened. And I'm like, guys, and I'm still holding the handle, and I'm like, guys, get the door off.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

It's off the hinges at this point. He's holding the door.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

So Laylee's like dying laughing, you know, juju's dying laughing. And so that's just that's how I go through life. I am wreck it rough, you know, in my just in my natural state. And so for me, it is you don't have to like I if when I'm being self-critical, every day I give myself plenty of material to work with, you know, and and so I think um I think recognizing if if you recognize your weaknesses as much as you focus on what you're good at, um I think it's gonna keep you humble, keep the ministry healthy, and keep other people doing what they do really well so that all of our weaknesses get overwhelmed by all of our strengths. The sum total of our weaknesses are gonna be overwhelmed by the sum total of our strengths, but it takes everybody being self-aware. So self-awareness is critical. And this is not this is not low self-esteem, or I'm not self-deprecating, but it's also I'm not I don't have an exaggerated opinion of my own importance. It's like finding that balance of, hey, I'm surrounded by gifted people who have strengths that that overcome and compensate my weaknesses. And that's what makes a whole a healthy ministry and organization. And uh and so I think that's that's I don't know, that's really important. It's so important. Um there was something else I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:06

While you're thinking, I think I think you have self-awareness from giving yourself time to reflect. And again, there's a line there where you're not like introspective to the point of just insecurity. But even this week, just being removed out of my normal life, sitting with the Lord or in a little cabin near the woods, just like literally asking God, like, what do you want to show me about myself? Like, where do you want to grow me in some of these areas? And just walking away from that time of just like, I feel weak here. Why? And what can I do about that? And how can I grow and how can I bring other people into that? I think that's where like our daily rhythms come in, is just that solitude and that silence before the Lord and letting him search you, letting him do what work in you and teach you. Like, I want to lead you in a way everlasting here. You're you're going down a path of death here. I want to turn you. But I think sometimes as busy leaders and just people, we don't give time to like really stop and let your feelings be a signal. Like, I feel anxious over this. Why? Yeah, you know, I feel really sad. That comment really bothered me. Not be drowned by that, but ask why and let the Lord speak

Silence And Solitude For Leaders

SPEAKER_05 1:01:24

into that.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:24

So yeah, I was actually gonna mention like one thing that I've learned from Brody, and we've talked about, and I've just like seen him implement really well, is like as being a leader and being on stage and like such a public figure at Snowbird, he's really good about taking time to draw away in silence and solitude, reset. And it's not like in abundance, it's not like oh, he's isolating, he's a recluse now, but it's like I feel like now being in a similar position, like speaking and being on the podcast, I felt that like weight and pressure sometimes as well. And so it's like really been health, healthy and helpful for me to like know and realize, oh, I do need time to like just sit and look upon the like Lord and let him reveal things into my heart and just let my emotions and thoughts just settle, you know. It's and not saying like other people don't feel that way, but I think there is a different level of it when you are, you know, presenting the gospel, like you're a big, bigger target now, you know, like the enemy wants you to be anxious or like wants you to be insecure, wants you to not be able to like speak clearly and confidently on stage or like whatever. And so I actually just taught on silence and solitude for for the element girls last night. So it's been like really fresh on my mind and in my brain. And I think Brody does a really good job of just knowing, okay, I'm gonna take this hour and go on a mountain bike ride and just pray and sort things out, and then I'm gonna come home and be ready to rock and roll. And I think that's something that I can be bad about, you know, but it's so beneficial and helpful, you know, just taking that time.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

Yeah, the uh today at some point this afternoon, it'll be it'll be a two-hour window, and I'll go. I think this is really important. I'll just go sit. I'll probably be near a creek, either at my house or on family property, and I'll just have my Bible. I won't take a journal, I won't take a device, and I'll let the Lord fill my mind. And I like sitting by a creek because there's this verse in Ephesians 5, which I mean, 90% of our listeners don't have access to a running mountain creek. I know that, but figure out what works for you, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:40

Get some brown noise, Spotify creek sound.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

But I um I'll sit there and I imagine that uh Ephesians five, it says Christ sanctifies his bride by washing her with the word. I'm like, all right, Lord, wash my brain here, wash my mind, wash my heart, wash my hands, wash my soul. And I sit there and and imagine just this sort of spiritual cleansing is happening. Like what I what you're saying, I love that you brought that up. Scriptures open, meditating on the word, sitting before the Lord and being silent. And it takes about 10 to 15 minutes to just for your brain to go and to power down and to kind of get calm. And and then somebody tell me one time, because I I work out, I try to work out, I try to exercise, I hate to use the phrase work out, I try to exercise every day because of the brain benefits as much as anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

So a lot of times it's just a long walk, but I don't I don't listen to anything. Yeah people I had somebody tell me one day I was here at camp in the in the fitness, the weight room at camp. I'm just sitting there doing deadlifts, sweating and grunting, and I'm by myself, and somebody I realized somebody was in the little mountain bike room, and uh he's and I won't say who it was, but he said, Wait, you don't listen to music? And I was like, No, and he said, Oh, oh, that's kind of weird. And I'm like, No, I don't listen to anything. You know, for an hour, I don't listen to anything. And I think we've got to stop, turn off the I don't care if it's you got a you got an hour commute and you're driving somewhere, or you're gonna get on the lawnmower, or you're gonna go for a walk, or you're gonna push your baby in a stroller while she naps, unplug it all, and maybe you don't have your Bible open, but you're meditating, you're listening, you're letting your mind go. Same reason I think parents, one of the most helpful things they can do for their kids is on a road trip, don't play a movie on the screens that drop down from the ceiling in the car. Hold them suckers up, turn the radio off, and drive for two hours in dead silence. You know, or in conversation, you know, but just everything busies our minds. And and I I have found all of that to say meditating before the Lord fills you up where you need to be full. And it empties you where you need to be emptied. There are things you need to be emptied of every day. Vanity, the desire for self, the desire for the approval of men. I got to always be right. I got to prove that you're wrong. I want credit for this. I need to be emptied of those things. Sitting before the Lord will empty you of those things. And that water of the word washes that out of you. And while it's washing that out, it's filling you up with the things that you need to be filled up with. Love and compassion, an attitude of worship, love and care for other people, empathy, sympathy, kindness, gentleness, grace towards others, the will to fight for what needs to be fought for. And that comes from being in the presence of the Lord. Literally comes from being in the presence of the Lord. Moses comes down out off that mountain and his whole face is changed. And at that point, you see a man who loves and empathizes like nobody else and fights and contends like nobody else. The gospel and the Christ at work in a person's life creates that opposing dichotomy like nothing else. You'll fight like a savage and you'll love with the deepest compassion and empathy, you know? Yeah. Um, and only the Lord can do that in a person's life. And if you do that, it's gonna be it's gonna make you a better leader, a better husband, a better mother, a better, you know, wife, a better boss, a better employee, a better pastor, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:32

Yeah, so good. And that that is the culture at Snowbird. Yeah, I think of Second Chronicles 7:14. If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, pray, seek my face, turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, forgive their sin and heal their land. And I just think about like the favor on this ministry, and the favor on any ministry is because people have done that. They've humbled themselves, they've seen Jesus, they've sought Jesus, they've turned from wickedness, not perfectly, but they've tried with pure motives to do that, and God pours favor. And that to me is the story of Snowbird. And you guys do that so well. So thanks for having. Yeah.

Preach, Die, Be Forgotten

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

Can I give one one last double thought?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:18

Um, the first one is uh that thought of when what you can accomplish when you don't care who gets the credit. Um, this was the other thought. I wanted to, I never looped that in. Where where that goes in my mind is there's no limit to what you can accomplish when everybody's obsessed with Jesus getting the credit.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:38

Yeah. And they love them. They love, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

Like if Christ is glorified and the Lord is honored, and if if he be lifted up, he'll draw them into himself. If if our goal is that Christ be glorified and he receive all glory and honor, then and I don't care how we get there. I don't care how we get there. That's the goal. My favorite, I have a handful of favorite outside of scripture quotes. Obviously, I have a I have a bunch of favorite quotes, you know, that I use and our staff knows me for. Take a day off, get killed by a line, you know, like we've got these these sayings. But then there's um there's some outside of the Bible quotes, and one of them is um from this missionary mobilization guy in the 1700 or 1800s. His name was Ludwig von Zinzendorf. He was uh he was a wealthy, you know, a wealthy nobleman, I think in Transylvania, which is outside of Spain, Moldova, Transylvania, somewhere over there. But he funded this massive missionary effort, but nobody nobody ever knew who he was. Because he's just funding it and sending missionaries mostly to the Caribbean islands and the but on his tombstone, somebody recently went there and sent me a picture because I say it all the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:56

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:57

They were at his grave.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:58

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:59

Like thought of you, and it's a picture of his of his tombstone, and it's got his name and the dates, and it says, preach the gospel, die, be forgotten. And um, that's the goal, you know. I won't be dead and gone, it ain't gonna matter, nobody's gonna remember. And anybody that does remember one generation later, nobody's gonna remember them. Right. So they there's this, okay, there's a Michael Moore quote. Michael Moore, Michael Moore. Michael Moore. Michael Moore, Michael Moore, the rapper. Yeah, I'm tracking. Okay. There's this line in a song, and he says, They say you died twice. Um, the first time is the the day you physically die, or whatever. Then he says, the last time is the last time anybody speaks your name. So that you're gonna you're gonna die in this in this world. Your memory is gonna die.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:55

So maybe, you know, it's kind of like, well, I just want people to remember me. Well, if they do, one more generation, they won't.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:02

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:02

What like being remembered a generation from now, you're not gonna be remembered past that. So you're gonna die twice, you're gonna die, and then that next generation of friends and family are gonna remember you. And then the next generation, somebody's gonna speak your name for the last time.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:18

And then you just vapor into history. Preach the gospel, die, be forgotten, and the gospel will continue. You will have invested in the redemptive legacy of history, you know? And then the second thing I wanted to circle back to, and I'm done, is um as a leader, you better, if you want to have an effective impact on an organization, ministry, church, whatever, you better learn how to say, I was wrong, and say, I'm sorry, will you forgive me? And say it often and say it in front of all your people where they go, dang, that dude just apologized and said he was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

Because I'm it's sad to me how many ministries are led by people that won't do that. Yeah. They will, they're not approachable, they will not admit wrongdoing. Um, they're always in self-preservation mode. Right. And people that work here hear me get up there and say I'm sorry a lot. Because I know like I know, like, I gotta apologize a lot because I'm an emotional dude and I get it wrong a lot of times. Maybe I say the right thing in the wrong tone, or maybe I'm in the right attitude, but I say the wrong thing, or whatever. And and you gotta be able, you gotta be willing to say, you know what? I was wrong. I should not have handled that that way. I'm sorry, will you forgive me? Yeah. And not just say I'm sorry, but ask for forgiveness. Yeah. Because if if we're gonna be reconciled, you can forgive me even if I don't ask for it. But if I haven't asked for it, then we're not gonna be reconciled. I can ask you to forgive me and say, Will you forgive me? I can repent and you can refuse to forgive me, and I'm free of this, but we're not reconciled. Right. But if I say, Will you forgive me? And you say, I forgive you, let's move on. Now we're reconciled and together for the gospel, we're moving forward. And too many leaders won't do one or the other of those things.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:08

Yeah. I think especially like in my brain, saying, like, I'm sorry, in my brain, the enemy just tells me, Oh, that's weak. Like you're being that's an area of weakness. But it's actually like the opposite. Like being humble enough to apologize and ask for forgiveness, like that takes immense strength and like humbleness, you know. And I think if I look back on my life and like the people who have led me, the people who I like have earned my respect and trust the most are the people who are like quick to apologize and quick to reconcile. And that's like been super impactful in my life, you know, and like just the shaping and molding of like me, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:43

Yeah. I was in a meeting at Watkinsville a couple years ago with a over a topic that was just making me really angry. And two of the pastors in the room with me, it was just a conflict moment. I disagreed with them, they disagreed with me. One of the pastors kept me after he was he's the guy I reported to. He was like, Brooke, I just want to talk to you for a second. And he pulled me aside and he said super gently, but it was a rebuke. And he was like, Your identity is tied to this, like being right or wrong, somebody else disagreeing with you, like the way you're feeling about this is so this is some identity stuff. And I think it just goes, and that was a pivotal moment for me to say, man, it just matters as a leader where your identity is, that looking at Jesus every day, thinking about that moment where you're gonna hear either well done or I never knew you, that impacts day-to-day so much. If my identity is secure in that, humble confidence comes out. Like it just comes out. But if my identity is in this thing or this decision or this ministry or my time on stage or how much growth is happening around me, I just can't function clearly. I I'm all wrapped up and I can't say I'm sorry. I can't, I can't be teachable. So I just think it really, it really goes back to that of where your gaze is and where your identity is, and being able to say, I'm sorry, is from a place of knowing I'm in Christ and I can fail. That's good. And that's okay. Yeah, you know. Yeah. It's good.

unknown 1:15:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:18

And not being scared of people not only getting the credit, but but outgrowing you, becoming more effective than you.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:25

What a legacy if if the next generation you've invested in does this better and has a broader impact.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:31

I told, I told my son, my oldest son, when he's growing up, he used to tell him all the time, I want you to be bigger and better and go farther than me. That's my goal. And and and I would say to him, hey man, you are so far ahead of where I was as a 16-year-old. You can communicate, you can take responsibility. So that's our goal is to invest and raise up people that are gonna do this better than us and don't be insecure about it. Celebrate it, you know? Because I want you to learn from my failures as much as you learn from my successes. Right. That's good.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:03

Hey.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:03

Thanks, Brooke. Yeah, good conversation.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:06

Yeah, really good.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:07

I feel like I learned a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:08

Yeah.

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SPEAKER_00 1:16:10

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