The Truth About Codependency

Codependency often starts with good intentions—close friendships, deep trust, and a desire to support one another. But when we begin looking to another person for our identity, security, or fulfillment, relationships can become unhealthy. In this episode, Brody and JB unpack what codependency looks like in friendships, mentoring relationships, and family dynamics, discuss common warning signs, and share practical, biblical steps for building healthy boundaries and Christ-centered relationships.

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Transcript

Why Codependency Matters

Speaker 5 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to NSR. Today me and Brody are sitting down and talking about codependency. Um, we had actually had this on our list to talk about. Um, and then this past weekend at Respond, a woman actually came up to me and was like, hey, do you guys mind talking about codependent relationships? And I was like, funny that you say that. We were actually already planning. So that was pretty cool. Um, but yeah, this is can be a bit of an awkward topic to cover. Um, but I feel good of what we talked about and covered. And um, hopefully it gives you guys some insight. I think codependency can be one of those things that you don't know it's happening until it's like blowing up in your face and it's really hard to handle. So I hope that this helps you just in your friendships and relationships. But then also if you're in a position of ministry or leading, uh, maybe you can look out for it and just strive for healthy friendships and relationships. And yeah, so I hope you guys enjoy this episode and I hope it brings light to a topic maybe you didn't know, or maybe it brings some good advice. Hope it's helpful for you. Thanks for tuning in for another week of NSR. We are so grateful. We have been getting really cool feedback. All that being said, welcome to No Sanity Required.

Speaker 1:17

Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.

Speaker 1 1:28

We're talking

Defining Codependency In Real Life

Speaker 1 1:29

today about codependent relationships and and I think specifically female codependent relationships.

unknown 1:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:36

And I would say it's something we see of I would say epidemic proportions being in student ministry. 12,000 people come through here this year. And so it's a it's a big sample. And the number of codependent relationships, and JB and I were just talking, even the number of codependent tendency to codependency, and we'll define this stuff, but the tendency towards codependent relationships that we see within our girl staff.

Speaker 4 2:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1 2:04

Um, we even have parameters. Sure. You can't sleep in the same bunk bed together. You know, you like we really try to teach and and and and inform and educate girls to the dangers of this. And so we're talking about this today. Why don't you give like like what when you think about as a young woman who um is is a Gen Z in this world, like like if you were going to describe what a codependent relationship looks like for listeners that are weekly NSR people, you know, I think of my buddy Kyle, who's a Marine, who now is a DOD contract guy who teaches people how to shoot machine guns. And he's listening to this right now, commuting to Quantico, you know, whatever. And he's like, What? Yeah. He's got two sons. Yeah, sure. And he's like, This is, you know, yeah. But uh he also cares about ministry. Yeah. And he's involved in the student ministry at his church. So it's really helpful for a guy like that because you don't realize it's a thing until all of a sudden you're like, wait, what?

Speaker 5 3:01

Exactly.

Speaker 1 3:01

What are we talking about?

Speaker 5 3:02

Yeah. So I want to preface, Bertie already kind of said this codependency can look like a parent-child relationship. It can look like um a sibling relationship, it can look like a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, but a lot of times it does look like a female-female. Like it starts off as a friendship. And then, like Bertie says, before you know it, these two girls or these two people are just codependent on each other in a way that is unhealthy and boundaries are just crossed. And we were talking before we started, and I'm sure we'll talk about this more often. But especially with women, we desire companionship in a different way than men do. That's just Brady, we'll probably read scripture to emphasize that. But we just desire companionship and friendship and relationship in a slightly different way than men do. And so sometimes when women get really, really close or girls get really, really close, it provides this feeling that or relationship that they've never felt before. And then it just becomes unhealthy. Obviously, the the word codependent is you can't depend or you can't survive without depending on this person. Like you are relying on this other person to fulfill you in ways that you're not either one, relying on yourself and being independent, or two, relying on the Lord.

Speaker 1 4:24

Okay, stop. That's perfect. That's what I wanna say that say that back to you.

Speaker 3 4:29

Okay.

Speaker 1 4:29

I think that's a really good, simple working definition. A codependent relationship is where you're relying on this person to fulfill what only Christ can fulfill for you, or um you're relying on them in a way in an area where you should be dependent.

Speaker 5 4:47

Yeah, in an independent person. Just an independent person.

Speaker 1 4:50

So when when you're relying on this other person to to complete some part of you, whether that's your joy, your day-to-day happiness, yep, your purpose, your meaning, your value, security, security, your comfort.

Speaker 5 5:04

I see that a lot. Like girls might be maybe on the outside or like feel a little insecure in some ways, and then they just rely on this other girl to like fill that hole in them. And I think me and my friend Allison were talking not too long ago with friendships. The more that you're focusing on the Lord, the less you're gonna be focusing on this friendship. And I say that in a way that's like, okay, obviously be in prayer for your friendships. And, you know, friend having friends is hard. It's a it's a working thing. You have to work at it and communicate well, but in the way of fulfillment, I'm just gonna keep using that word. Like, if I'm so caught up of like, do these girls not like me anymore? Obviously, I'm not focusing on the Lord. I'm focusing on getting that fulfillment from this group of girls or something. So yeah, that just kind of goes back to that working definition.

Speaker 1 5:53

Um, couple thoughts. I think this is important for dads, pastors, youth pastors, brothers, men, because uh funny story, men don't really most men don't deal with we we're not wired this way. And so the other day uh we had a board meeting. Snowbird board of directors was here, and one of the ladies on our board um who's been on here, I think Brooke's been on here. Yeah, Brooke's been on here, and I've been and we've we've interviewed her a couple times. Uh Brooke Loving Good, she we were we were joking and laughing during one of the breaks, and she said she was talking about how Muggs and Hank uh have changed Snowbird in so many ways for the better. Like they've taken us to the next level. She's like, you know, your vision and leadership and energy is great, but you got to have people that can implement ideas and put figure out how to pay the bills and how do you grow a staff? And and so it was cool just seeing, you know, our board recognizes that. And she said, now aren't you and Muggs best friends? And I went, uh I said, Brooke, that's not a thing. And she said, she's like, wait, what do you mean it's not a thing? You know, and I'm like, that's I'm a man.

Speaker 3 7:05

Right.

Speaker 1 7:05

I don't have a a BFF, you know. I don't have a best friend. I got a brother and some cousins. I got a circle of dudes in my life that are, you know, a tribe of guys. Like we're a tribe that we're a spiritually go-to-war together group of dudes. And that, and that group, that circle for me overlaps. There's guys outside of Snowbird. Um, but I mean, guys, real men, like dudes, they get they would get uncomfortable even with somebody implying it, you know. But there are very few girls that wouldn't say, Oh, that's my best friend. And a lot of girls will say it about multiple girls. Yeah. Like that's she's or she's one of my best friends, or you know, and there's a group, and it's it's a it's more of a so the reason we're focusing on more the girl side is because it isn't it is an issue. Now, I think we'll do another episode where we get into I think characteristics of male relationships, what you need as a man in your life to help grow you, strengthen you, edify you versus tear you down. But what we're talking about in codependency, you don't you just don't I think you see it in guys that have deep daddy wounds or were uh victims of abuse. Yeah. Guys that may struggle with same-sex relationship or like uh desire. Yeah. You know, so you got a dude that that has same-sex desires that stem from wounds caused by broken relationship with his earthly dad or something like that. That's different and that's more complex, I think, in a lot of ways, and what we're talking about. Um and then also I will speak one just real quick to parent codependent relationships. You see this

When Parents And Kids Get Entangled

Speaker 1 8:41

a lot where um parents sort of unravel when their kids start to leave the house, you know, an empty nest. By the coop. Yep. The first kid leaves and a mom starts to really, you know, and typically this coincides with a midlife existential moment where you're like, okay, where am I gonna find my value?

Speaker 5 9:00

Yes.

Speaker 1 9:00

What's my purpose? What's my meaning? What's my why?

Speaker 5 9:03

Yeah. I had a friend in high school that in high school would still kiss her mom on the lips. Like instead of saying goodnight, like, love you, they would literally, it was a little awkward. All of our friends were like, and she's still living at home and like hasn't flown the coop yet. So I think like when I think of a codependent parent relationship and they were like best friends, like me and my mom were close, but there's also a level where it's like I'm gonna seek advice elsewhere. My mom doesn't need to know every single detail of my life, but they were like thicker than thieves, like tie.

Speaker 1 9:38

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, man, I you see this a lot, though. The and again, we'll just be brief with this. I think this might be its own episode at some point, but I want to spend a few minutes here talking about it because I think this is helpful for a lot of parents. Um, I I have people say to me a lot, you know, I've got a daughter that lives on the other side of the world with my grandkids. I've got a son that lives 13 hours away. He uh, you know, when Tuck was into transfer, we've not talked about Tuck on here in a long time, but Tuck left Virginia Tech, entered the transfer portal. Most people, uh my two co-hosts here, also included in this, are fans of a team.

Speaker 5 10:18

Go dogs.

Speaker 1 10:19

Um, I am not a fan of a logo, a mascot, a team. I don't just don't care. I've been in once you're on this side of it, it's hard to care.

Speaker 5 10:27

Because you just see like the business side of it. Yeah, man.

Speaker 1 10:29

The trading, the money, the Yes. And people are like, oh, we gotta, we gotta tight in this year. I'm like, that guy does not care about you or your little stadium of 90,000 people. He don't care. He's not interested in you. He's interested in who's gonna pay me the most money and be the best next stepping stone for what's coming next for me, right? So, but but you've got this anyway, that's that's that's not the rant that was gonna go on. It's just it's very personal to me. And so um Tuck was looking at, you know, when he was narrowing down his portal options, one of the teams two of the teams were West Coast teams, Oregon and UCLA, and people were like, What are you gonna do if he goes to Oregon? And I'm like, I'm gonna watch him play football. Like he's a grown man. And I and I had this moment where I was explaining to somebody, there is a there is a family that lives not far from my house. I'm gonna be careful how I describe this. Okay. They have two kids that graduated around the ages of two of my kids. These are these are legal adults, well into adult. They didn't graduate last year. Yeah. These are kids in their 20s. Both kids still live at home. The son has $150,000 worth of toys sitting in the front yard. Two tru a jacked-up truck, like a $75,000 super duty with, you know, a chip in it and pipes and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he's got a trailer hooked up to it with a $20,000 quad rig that's for right, you know, riding off-road racing. He's got uh a probably a $50,000 bass boat. He's got all these toys. And on the sticker on his truck says it's just money. And I'm like, you don't pay rent.

Speaker 5 12:14

Yeah, you don't pay the bills.

Speaker 1 12:16

You ain't got a mortgage. And so when people say, uh, you know, and Tuck didn't end up in Oregon, he ended up still 13 hours away.

Speaker 4 12:24

So yeah.

Speaker 1 12:24

I've seen him once this year, and it's because I went down there, you know, and I'm he's got a break. Right now he's at XPE sports training. Next week he'll be in Dallas for 10 days training with NFL guys. And like, I'm not gonna say he's got a break. I ain't gonna see him, you know. He might get by here for a day or two, and people are like, is it hard? Is it, you know, Kilby's on the other side of the world? And I'm like, no, I tell you what's hard. If if you're all still living in the same house, cooped up, yeah. And and he's got $150,000 worth of toys in it. Yo, I did something wrong.

Speaker 4 12:57

Yeah.

Speaker 1 12:58

I have failed as a child.

Speaker 4 13:00

Yeah.

Speaker 1 13:01

I failed my him as a child. And so, and you two are examples of the Gen Z. I would remind people of what we said in a recent episode. There's always going to be a remnant that strikes out and goes to impact the world. And I don't want my kids staying. Now, if God calls any of my kids to live and work in Andrews, and man, it'd be awesome. That snowbird. Sure. That'd be phenomenal. Yeah. They ain't gonna live at the house.

Speaker 4 13:27

Yeah, true.

Speaker 1 13:28

My son, I told my I've told both my boys, when you're out of the house, when you're 18, yeah, I got a rental, you can pay rent. Yeah, you can pay market value, you can pay what everybody else pays.

Speaker 3 13:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1 13:38

But there's this need that I think a lot so you see codependency in parent relationships where there's this, I got, you know, this hanging on. And I'm sensitive to that, especially with daughters, man. Like, yeah, you know, if if if I thought Laylee Holloway was gonna move to the other side of the world, you know, it'd be a hard pill to swallow.

Speaker 4 13:58

Sure.

Speaker 1 13:59

She's my third one, and you know, and if she does it, and then the next one will roll around will be juju. And if she does each time it's gonna be hard. Yeah. And but you want them to flourish where God would have them to flourish. So anyway, I think there is a there is a a conversation to be had. I would just say to parents, the greatest place for your child to be is in the center of God's will. And if that's on the other side of the planet or two counties away, or you know, the mom that I talked to recently was freaking out because her kid moved four hours away. And I was like, You'd be all right. You'd be all right. It's like when little when little lost her finger in an accident, Daniel Ritchie was working here, he's got no arms. And I remember he's he winked at her and said, You'll be all right. Everything's perspective.

Speaker 5 14:42

I also think with kids, like, I don't know what my parents did, but they re raised like three very independent kids. Same thing I feel with your kids. And it's like, I'm very independent, but not in a way that's like spiteful to my towards my parents. Like, I don't need them. Cause I also know that they're my support system. So if I get in a pinch, guess who I'm calling? My mom and dad, because I know that they'll have my back. But they raise me in a way that's not reliant on them. So raise independent kids, like they're gonna fall on their face, and like this is a funny story. We're getting off on a tangent, but um, and when I'm a podcast, not a summer. True. When I was in college, I took a summer class. Brody, you will remember this. I don't know if you do, but I took a summer class and I just got caught up with all my summer adventures and I failed the class. Like I just stopped turning, it was all my fault. Like I just stopped turning in the assignments because I was going to the beach and working a week at Snowbird and doing a summer internship and all this stuff. And um when I found out I failed the class, I was working at Snowbird. Like I came for the week to work with a group. And I remember I was like, Brody, I failed this class. My parents are gonna kill me. Like I was freaking out. And Brody was like, Listen, you'll be okay. Like, tell your parents like you're a good kid, you've worked hard. This is probably the first class you've ever failed. Like, just call them and just hand it to them. And I was like freaking out. But on the way home, I called him and I just was like, just told him, I was like, I failed this class. I'm so sorry. I'll pay you back. And my parents were great about it. Like, it's not like they were like, Oh, it's okay, it's probably the professor's fault. Like, no, it's okay. I mean, they let me fall on my face. I was humbled severely, you know, like it sent me back a whole semester in college, but they still supported me. And like, truly, that was a very humbling moment. And it's not like my parents picked me up and dusted me off, but they were still there to support me and like let me navigate that, you know. Anyways, all that to say raise independent kids, let them fall on their face, yeah, dust themselves off.

Speaker 1 16:41

And and because usually the reason a mom or dad doesn't let their kid become independent is because that parent is codependent. Yeah, and if that child becomes independent, now the the the codependent parent is gonna struggle. I'm I mean, I see it a lot, you know.

Speaker 4 17:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1 17:05

So um codependency touches a lot of different relationships. Uh,

Ministry Fallout And Horror Stories

Speaker 1 17:11

but I think the two ground zero relationships would be parents to their kids and then female friendships. And you know, just a couple quick, a couple of quick horror stories. Um one, uh a gal that's a lady who's a mom and a wife in our organization who loves the Lord. She's awesome. Um, you know her. Um she was a journeyman. Uh her name's we'll we'll we'll call her Carol. That's part of her name. It's not her whole name. But okay. And they're Red Oak folks. Uh they're missionaries, and and and that before they came home from the mission field, they were serving in a place that she had served before they were married. And when she was there in that country, she had been partnered with a girl that became codependent on her to the degree that it broke up this missionary team, and they had she had to go home. And so it can disrupt not just your life, but it can disrupt other people's lives. And in ministry context, it can disrupt the work of the gospel. There's that story, but then I know of two other stories where both of these involved youth pastors' wives who ended up in a codependent relationship with a girl that they had discipled and count counseled. And we might, you you spoke to this, I think, before we turn this on. Yeah. And you might speak to this a little bit, where you've got youth pastor's wife, uh a girl 16, 17, 18, coming through the youth ministry. Youth pastor's wife is in her 20s, she's ministering to this girl. You got a 27, 28-year-old lady ministering to a 16, 17-year-old girl. A codependent relationship forms, the girl graduates, and and within, by the time, you know, she's been out of school a year or two, this happened twice. Um, in this, in this, in Snowbird's sphere. Yeah. By the time she's out of out of school for a couple years, there's a same-sex relationship that's developed, and the youth pastor ends up divorced. One dude has is out of ministry. Like, he ended up leaving and going back. He was a police officer. He went back in the secular world. And then the other guy, he stayed, man, that dude's a dog of a dude. Like, I love that guy. He stayed the course and stayed and remained single and stepped back. He listens to NSR. He'll listen to this. He knows, you know who I'm talking about because he's getting ready to get married. I'm excited for him.

Speaker 4 19:37

Congrats.

Speaker 1 19:37

Yep. And but he, for I think seven or eight years, he stayed single.

Speaker 4 19:42

Wow.

Speaker 1 19:43

Because it and fought for his marriage. She left and went with another woman that had formed this codependent relationship. And um, and eventually it and she moved home for a little while in the movie. But it, you know, the horror stories are codependent relationships can ruin lives.

Speaker 5 19:59

And can lead to same-sex relationships. So I do want to emphasize that because I remember the first time I ever really heard of codependency was working at Snowbird, honestly. And maybe I'd seen it, but just not realized like the name of the game, you know. And I remember thinking, oh, they just don't want us to be codependent because they don't want us to turn gay. Like that's what I thought at first. But it's so much more than that. Yes, it can lead to that, but we don't want you to be codependent because that means you're not relying on the Lord. Yeah. And like we were saying, I think sometimes, a lot of times, I've seen this, like you said, in the sphere of snowbird, not necessarily directly tied to snowbird, but maybe a church or a friendship or whatever, where either a girl who has experienced some type of trauma or even just a negative encounter with a man. Could be a boyfriend, could just be a random guy that has hurt them in some way. Like you said, they get close to a mentor, could be the youth pastor's wife, could be just an older woman. And I think this is where it gets, this is where we can nip it in the bud. I think sometimes older women or w women in ministry have a savior complex. So they think, oh, this girl needs to come to me. I'm gonna make her better. I'm gonna save her. We need to share each other's deepest, darkest secrets and get really, really close because I'm the one saving her. Okay. And then on the flip side, I think a lot of times when girls get put in uncomfortable situations, whether that's she was hurt by a man or whether it's she's on the mission field, or whether that's it's her first time away from home and she's at Snowbird and it's a really uncomfortable and hard situation for her. Instead of relying on the Lord, they get really close to another girl and rely on that. I think that's like if you boil codependency down, I think that's where I've seen the most codependent relationships come out of that. And then taking it a step forward or beyond is when it does lead to like same sex relationships or same sex attraction. I think it's like I said, sometimes girls will get burned or hurt by a man and then they'll go to a woman. And like I mentioned in the beginning, women just have a different companionship aspect. Like you're saying, the best friend thing. Like, um, we just offer different companionship. I am gonna tell my secret to Laley, or like we're gonna goof off and like have funny things that I probably won't even have with Blake. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so it just offers a different type of friendship and relationship. And I think some girls will interpret that as, well, I've never felt this with a man. Therefore, am I gay? Like, therefore, am I am I a lesbian? You know? And so I think it just really boils down to not relying on the Lord, sometimes having a savior, savior complex, savior, um, yeah, savior complex. And yeah, just thinking like, I think a lot of times, because I've heard multiple stories from the mission field, and unfortunately, we've seen it happen at Snowbird too. And I think it's just when girls are put into an uncomfortable situation, not necessarily bad, but maybe just a situation that pushes them out of their comfort zone or stretches them thin. Instead of relying on the Lord, I think they rely on friendships. And then if you do that with anything, if you do that in a marriage, a friendship, a relationship, a work relations, anything, a parent relationship, if you rely on that person more than you rely on the Lord, it's gonna become unhealthy.

Speaker 1 23:19

Yeah. Point blank. That's right. I and I I I really appreciate you reiterating it's a much slipperier slope. Much more slippery slope for girls. Guys are not gonna typically struggle with this. I think there's dudes that there are guys that will do this, typically guys that have a daddy wound. But there's also like guys will be, man, we don't let dudes at if you could listen, if you're a dude and you want to come to work at Snowbird or you're coming to work at Snowbird, there's certain things you are not gonna, you're not gonna do. Or you can joke about. Or joke about.

Speaker 2 24:05

Yeah.

Speaker 1 24:05

You're not gonna give another man a massage, back rub. Some of our listeners are like, say what? Like they just about swerved off the road. Yeah, like dudes, like see dudes like giving each other back rubs or like or even like cuddling, joking.

Speaker 5 24:19

Like I've seen guys like joke and like touch another guy's butt or like put their hand. I'm like, it's just not funny. Yeah, you're a weirdo. You're a weirdo.

Speaker 1 24:26

Weird. You are a weirdo if you think that's acceptable and normal. And we don't want weirdos working at Snowbird. So they're not going to. And so you'll like you're not. There are certain expectations a man is gonna have placed on him if he comes and works in in this organization. Likewise, but in a gentler approach, there are expectations we have for women. And one of those is we're gonna safeguard, we won't we've seen the danger that these kinds of relationships pose. Yeah.

Speaker 5 24:55

I want to talk about that for a second. I

Warning Signs Like Jealousy And Control

Speaker 5 24:57

want to talk about, because we mentioned it, it's tricky to kind of pick up on signs before it's kind of blown up in your face. Because you can be like, oh, those girls are just really good friends. And then all of a sudden you realize, oh, wait, it's codependency or like it's going down a path. So I kind of want to talk about signs that maybe if you're listening as a youth pastor or minister, or even for your own relationships and friendships, signs that you can pick up on of codependency before maybe it's gone there, if that makes sense.

Speaker 3 25:26

Yeah.

Speaker 5 25:27

I think the first one for sure is jealousy. I think if you have a friendship, and I know with girls this can get sticky because girls are just dramatic. But we were joking beforehand, and it's like sometimes with girls, it's like, I'll tell, I'm just gonna use these girls as an example. These girls are not like this, Layle and Katie. You guys have heard they've both been on the podcast, but I'm just gonna use them as an example.

Speaker 1 25:48

Laley's my daughter.

Speaker 5 25:49

Yes.

Speaker 1 25:50

Not Katie Cousins, but Katie Hayes, who's been on the podcast.

Speaker 5 25:53

I'm using them as an example because they are far, like literally the farthest from this. So don't take it seriously. But let's say I tell Laley something, and then Katie comes to me and she's like, Why would you tell Laley that and not me that? It's like, whoa, you should be happy that like I'm even confessing this sin or like telling, getting help. And so I think with girls, you can see that often of like, why did she tell you that and not me? And that once again kind of dips into the savior complex of like, why do you need to know everything? You know, like um, so I think look out for jealousy, look out for like, am I able to hang out with a different group of girls, different group of people, and this person be fine not being there or fine if we're not up each other's butt crack the whole entire time. Like, yeah, just that weird sense of jealousy and control.

Speaker 1 26:40

FOMO.

Speaker 5 26:41

FOMO, yeah. Especially if it's like we've seen this a couple of times where it'll be two girls in a codependent relationship, and then one of the girls will get a boyfriend, and then the other girl that's left out of that freaks out and flips her lid and is like mad or jealous or angry. But I think that's a big one, is jealousy.

Speaker 1 27:03

Yeah, I told a story about that on the break or before we started, um, where we saw that happen. We've seen it happen multiple times, but we saw it at an extreme where a snowbird couple, all three of these people worked at snowbird. It's probably 10 years ago, maybe 15 years ago. It was a while ago. But all three worked at Snowbird, the dude, the two girls were BFFs, best friends forever, which is not true. Um the two girls were like best friends. They were not best friends before they came to Snowbird. They met here, and then one of them starts dating a snowbird guy. Now both of these girls had I think they both had I I know they both had sort of these codependent tendencies because of past relationship. One of them did not know her earthly father. She had been her mom had been married two or three times to stepdads that she didn't really have a relationship with. The current stepdad is a pretty good dude. He's a he was a cop, a local cop, and good dude. But there was some there was some wounding there, and this girl came to faith. She was a local gal who came to faith in the Lord through Snowbird's ministry, Snowbird and Red Oak. Spent a lot of time at our house. Um got to be best friends with a girl that came to work at Snowbird. Uh, and then when she got engaged, the other girl like had had a I don't know what you call it, a meltdown. A meltdown.

Speaker 4 28:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1 28:41

Where I mean she's potentially, and I don't remember if she got hospitalized, but like locked in her, you know, locked in her closet, wailing, crying, like having like a panic attack or uh what they used to call people call it a panic attack now. When I was a kid, they called it a nervous breakdown where she's just spun out and it's all because she's getting married.

Speaker 5 29:05

Yeah. The girl's getting married. She's getting engaged. Yeah.

Speaker 1 29:07

Yep. And it was bad enough that the the the people I wasn't doing the wedding, but the guy doing the wedding is a a solid dude who's very close to this table. Um, and I remember we were having a conversation. He's like, I don't feel uh we gotta work through some stuff. And uh and and so it created major problems for a lot of people um when that girl when she and they ended up getting married, had a couple kids, and um I d I think their marriage ended, but I don't think it was related to this. Um that's another story, but but it could have been, I don't know. Who knows? Yeah, so it's a real thing.

Speaker 5 29:46

Yeah, yeah. I think some of the safeguards we have at Snowbird, obviously we're getting ready. Staff is coming in, and obviously we're all just slammed into bunk rooms and very close quarters together. And so it's not like we want it to be military school where you can't joke around and goof off and borrow each other's clothes. And, you know, there's still that aspect of like sisterhood and like, you know, girlhood, whatever you want to call it. But there's some things that it's like, no, we're just not gonna go there. You're not gonna sleep in the same bed together. And it's like I saying that out loud, it's like, well, duh, obviously. But when you're tired and you're sleepy and longing for home or whatever, you would be surprised, you know. So, like, there's just a couple of things. No one's gonna sleep in the same bed, no one's gonna cuddle, no one's gonna joke about cuddling or like we were talking about earlier, touching inappropriately as a joke. That's not that's not ever a joke. Like, and so, and we just keep a close, close eye and like not to be, like I said, military and like you two separate, go boy girl, boy, girl. No, but it's like for the better of this ministry and for your relationship and your future relationships, just like keeping a close, and that kind of happens organically through community groups and fire team. It's not like me and Brody are like watching every relationship, you know. It's it happens very naturally.

Speaker 1 31:07

It's a c we've created, I think, a culture of accountability for that.

Speaker 5 31:11

I'm sure through Snowbird, like by trial and fire, unfortunately. Oh, yes. You know, like it didn't just happen overnight, but definitely happened through situations where obviously this has happened before.

Speaker 1 31:25

The save I'm gonna go back to the savior complex thing you said, I think is very important. Because a lot of these code I think there's there's two types of female codependent relationships. One is you've got two immature girls that just start to depend and rely on each other for those things you talked about, or two spiritually immature women. I mean, it could be two married women who are in marriages that aren't fulfilling them emotionally and they start to, you know, this this can happen with grown women. But also the savior complex piece is huge because I think a lot of times one person allows the relationship to get to an unhealthy place because she enjoys being needed to help this other person. So maybe she's not naturally codependent, she's she's a little more solid and grounded, but I don't care how solid and grounded you are. When all of a sudden you find that someone needs you, yeah, that's dangerous.

Speaker 5 32:25

Yeah. And especially for women, we have that inside of us. Like we have that innate feeling. Like I've always wanted to be a mom. I always want that feeling of like caring for someone and making sure they're okay. So it's like it's already in innately, innately, yeah, innately inside of us, like our desires and stuff. Will

Genesis And The Roots Of Distortion

Speaker 5 32:47

you read that Genesis passage?

Speaker 1 32:49

Because I think while I'm getting there, I'll tell you one thing about I appreciate you saying that about wanting to be a mom. One of the things, but this goes kind of back into the parenting piece, uh, where a lot of gals, once they start having kids, that like how many how many moms do you know? And I mean, I'm this is almost a rhetorical question, where they've got a bunch of rug rats, you know, you know, toddlers and little ones and little toxic and you know, single-digit age numbers. And when you're interacting with that mom, 90% of your interaction is about her kids. She's so in that that's just a world.

Speaker 4 33:33

Yeah, that's her world.

Speaker 1 33:34

So you're like, hey, how's it going? Ah, just trying to feed kids and keep up with that's all she can talk about. And sometimes it's like just that's just how it is. You know, I I saw one of our moms uh in our community, Kelly Schwarting, she came by, she they brought us food last night. Um we have a really cool ministry at our church where um if you are a family that fosters or adopts, then you have a support team around you of other families that help you from time to time. And one of the things that we receive is once a week a family brings us a meal. It's a huge blessing. And uh Jake and Kelly Schwarting live on our road, and I was walking, this was at about seven o'clock yesterday evening, and that she comes driving by and I didn't even know they're bringing us supper, and she stops to talk to me to say, Hey, is anybody home? I'm bringing supper over. And they're just on our road, which is a and we're a half a mile apart. So she's in Jake's truck and she's got all three of her boys, and they're all dressed as some character. One of them's wearing like a one of them's Mario, one of one of them's wearing a tiger onesie, and they've got magic markers all over their face, you know, and then snot and dirt. I mean, I love it. It's like this is what boys are supposed to look like. And I just loved it. And she stops, and you know, they're all standing up in the seats yelling.

Speaker 4 34:51

Yeah.

Speaker 1 34:51

And uh, and uh and she stops and she's great. She's like unfazed, but I'm like, you good? She's like, whoo! Yep. Oh man, it's like this is seven o'clock at the end of a day for a mom, a boy mom. You'll get them by ass and put them in bed. And so there's this, you know, there's this uh she I guarantee you Kelly Schwarting feels needed.

Speaker 3 35:13

Sure.

Speaker 1 35:14

You know, it's built into her day-to-day life right now. Which is why when those boys leave home, she's gonna have an existential crisis. Sure. But she's gonna be grounded in Christ. You know, yeah. So you take a gal that I appreciate you saying that, because that characteristic to nurture and give care is hardwired into you as a woman. God put that there. That's where we'll go to Genesis two and three. And so when when there's when that's not being fulfilled or when it was being fulfilled, and now it's all of a sudden not. Yeah, there's a danger for you to fall into that savior complex category. So let me let me set this up. This is in Genesis 2, you've got um the fall. So, you know, God puts Adam and Eve in the garden. He tells Adam to keep the garden, watch over, protect it. He tells them to take dominion over creation. The serpent comes in, the serpent deceives Eve. And in the deception, there's a there's an understood breakdown in God's design for how that's supposed to, how that that's supposed to play out. Adam is to protect, Eve is to nurture, they're to be tending the garden, they're the they're to create uh a pay a place where they flourish together in their relation in relationship with God. And so when the the first point of failure, and this is important, the first point of failure is Adam. What's the what's the freaking snake doing there? Yeah, you know, the dragon or the serpent or whatever it is. What's it doing there?

Speaker 4 36:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1 36:48

I mean, did you hear what Little said when she's talking about Abraham and Sarah?

Speaker 5 36:52

What'd she say?

Speaker 1 36:53

Going into when Abraham gave Sarah into the harem of the Egyptian king at Respond last weekend.

Speaker 5 37:00

She was saying- Might have been backstage.

Speaker 1 37:02

She said, I I heard her say my name. I was backstage at the women's conference just listening to the messages. But I could where I was at, I could I could I was having to lean in and and I heard my name singing. I really leaned, I'm like, okay, what's she gonna say? She's gonna, she's about to make a Brody joke, which I've given her plenty of material in our four decades together. And she said, you know, Abraham goes into Egypt with Sarah, and when the Pharaoh's men see her and her beauty, which she had to be a good looker. She's 80.

Speaker 4 37:36

Yeah, dang. They're like, I never thought of that.

Speaker 1 37:39

She's like 70 something years old. They're like, so he, you know, he passes her off as his sister. She ends up in the king's harem. She's like, Brody Holloway would have painted his face with blue war paint like Braveheart and charged down there. And he'd have got he'd have got three or four of them if they'd have killed him, and I would have ended up in the king's harem. But he would have gone down five. And there's this there's this thing with a man where if a woman's built to nurture, a man's built to provide and protect. And that doesn't mean a man doesn't have any nurturing ability. It doesn't mean a woman is not a protector. Sure. Right. But there's this complementary, we use that terminology, which is can be controversial, which it shouldn't be because it's correct. But there's this, there's this complementary existence. The first breakdown in the garden is that Adam allows the serpent to come talk to his wife. He should have chopped that sucker's head off, hit him with a club, pick up a rock.

unknown 38:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1 38:37

You know, something, run him out. I think I I'm of the opinion he had the authority to simply tell him to leave. I don't even think he had to chop the head off of a serpent. I think he just said, Hey, you got to go leave.

Speaker 5 38:49

That's a good point.

Speaker 1 38:50

And he didn't do that.

Speaker 5 38:51

Yeah. Let it linger.

Speaker 1 38:52

He let it linger. And I think for men, the very bare minimum is have the courage to just speak up.

Speaker 5 39:02

Yes.

Speaker 1 39:02

You know, in defense of your marriage or your family or your children or your, you know, when it comes to the cultural pressure. I don't mean speak up because the because you're your U-12 baseball coach and letting your son start at first base. I'm not talking about speak up there. Right. A doodle, speak up for that and not speak up for the things that matter.

Speaker 5 39:22

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Speaker 1 39:23

And so Adam doesn't speak up. And so now Eve is in this vulnerable position and it creates tension. And so, so what I'll read is when God is addressing this in Genesis 3, um, if you go down Genesis 3, verse 13, then the Lord God asked the woman, What have you done? The serpent deceived me, she replied. That's why I ate it. Then the Lord said to the serpent, Because you've done this, you're cursed more than all animals, domestic and wild. You will crawl on your belly, groveling in the dust as long as you live. And I will cause hostility between you and the woman. Between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel. Now that's what theologians call the first gospel proclamation. It's a foreshadowing to what Jesus would do to the serpent. The serpent would strike the heel of Jesus, the seed of the woman, but the seed of the woman, the Messiah, the Savior, would crush the head of the serpent. Um then he said to the woman, I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. Now, this as he's as he's speaking to the woman, what he's saying to her is universal to all women. Even, I would even say, let's say a woman never bears a child. She goes through her life and either she never marries or she's barren.

Speaker 4 40:54

Yep.

Speaker 1 40:54

She still deals with the repercussions of the curse. Yes. There are certain physiological realities for a woman that a man doesn't face. I can I think I can be candid on this podcast. The other day, one of the girls on staff comes up to me, and it's uh someone who stays at my house most often when she's in town, and she said, Hey, uh, do you have a tampon in your truck? Oh like it's this this known thing that, yep, I got three daughters and a wife. There's always a box of them in the glove box, you know what I mean? Oh, and there's also some Motron in there if you need it, you know. And there's this reality at least once a month that a woman faces that's a reminder. Yes, literally, my physiology is affected by what's going on in Genesis 3. Okay. And so it says, he will rule. Uh he says, and you will desire to control your husband. Now, in uh like the original English translation, so take the King James, for instance, or New American Standard, it says your desire is for your husband. But here, I like the NLT, it says your desire, you will desire to control your husband.

Speaker 4 42:08

Husband, yeah.

Speaker 1 42:09

And if you that's a that's a complex word, control, uh desire, I mean. And if you look, it's only gonna appear two other times in scripture. One is in the next chapter, Genesis 4. Do you remember the story of Cain and Abel? Okay, and that story, I'll just read it. One chapter later, God comes to Cain and he says, Why are you so angry? No, this is this is after it says the Lord did not accept Cain and his gift. This made Cain very angry, and he looked dejected. Why are you so angry? The Lord asked Cain. Why do you look so dejected? You will be accepted if you do what is right, but if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out. Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. It's the same word.

Speaker 4 42:56

Wow.

Speaker 1 42:56

Desire to control her husband, eager to control you. Sin is eager to control you. It's the same Hebrew word, the idea being to take control of the situation for its own good. The only other time it's used is in uh sort of a marriage passion connotation in Song of Songs, Song of Solomon. Okay, Song of Songs, Song of Solomon. It's only used three times in the Bible, and it's a complex word that can either mean to control by by like force or by manipulation.

Speaker 5 43:27

Yep. When you just said both of those examples in Genesis when it's talking about Eve and Ken and Abel, uh my immediate thought went to manipulation. Yeah. Because I think sometimes you see women like have a physical control over their husband. It's kind of weird, you know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 43:44

It's weird.

Speaker 5 43:46

But a lot of times you see it more in terms of manipulation.

Speaker 1 43:49

I just pointed it. We had a conversation about this this morning.

Speaker 5 43:53

But I think a lot of times you see it in forms of manipulation, you know, like I do too. And same thing with sin. A lot of Thompson manipulates you or like manipulates your brain. Yeah. Manipulates the way you think. Like yeah. Same word. Yeah. That's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 44:09

And that's pretty crazy. I think you see, you see a couple thoughts with that word. There's the if you were going to translate that word directly into English in like the most literal translation, it would be it would be this description of something that is stretched to distortion. So it's a distortion of original intent and design. Yeah. That's okay. To bring about uh an end or a means to an end. That's good. And so uh we've all either been involved in or seen a situation where a dude is manipulated by a woman. We've also all seen a situation where a dude is abusive to a woman.

Speaker 5 44:52

100%.

Speaker 1 44:53

And that's the two that's the two perversion, perversions or distortions of how this works itself out. It either works itself out where a woman becomes domineering and controlling. Think back to our interview with Denise Morris. Do you remember that point? And and for those of you that didn't listen to that episode, those two episodes, you should go back and listen to them. Phenomenal testimony of God's grace.

Speaker 3 45:12

I'll link them.

Speaker 1 45:12

She talked, okay. She talked about how she had been abused, controlled from a young age by men. There was a point in her life where she said, Well, I'm gonna get them, I'm I'm gonna take control of the situation, and I'm gonna use men for my own profit and gain. Yep. Because she's a fighter. Yep. Every woman's a fighter, and you either get beat into submission or you you you, oh, I'm a fighter, I'm gonna fight. And so when you think about codependent relationships in the context of Genesis 2 and 3, this is where it's rooted. It's rooted in when relationships are not Christ honoring between a man and a woman, or when singleness, and that there are New Testament passages that speak to that. When as a young man or young woman in singleness, you're not dependent and honoring the Lord and seeking healthy biblical accountability, there's a danger that it plays out this way. So you start to look for so I think women that are being codependent on each other, that's tied to Genesis three. Your desire to control something is there.

Speaker 4 46:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1 46:18

So you have a mechanism in you. Joy Elizabeth has a mechanism in her to control situations and circumstances. You just got to recognize it, submit it to the Lord, and then you're healthy.

Speaker 4 46:30

Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 46:31

I have a mechanism in me. If we go to if we go to the the curse that the man has, what it expresses is a a struggle to find your value in your performance.

Speaker 4 46:45

Yeah, work, work.

Speaker 1 46:47

How many men reflect that in the way they treat their family? Yeah. Right. That's hardwired into me. And so recognizing this, we can kind of sort it out and then say, okay, how do I deal with this spiritually?

Practical Boundaries And Accountability

Speaker 5 46:59

Yeah. I think you kind of touched on this, but let's say I just came to you and I said, hey, I'm codependent with another girl. Walk me through what you would do or what advice you would give, what counsel you would give to combat that. You kind of already did, but give, if you can, more like practical to the point things.

Speaker 1 47:19

Yes. First I will say if if a girl gets to a point, I think there's two ways we answer this. One is if if one of those girls is at a point, one or both, where they're saying, hey, this is unhealthy. We need, we need some help pulling this back. That's good. We can work with that. Where it's more difficult is maybe you're a mom or a friend or a dad or a pastor and you're recognizing this.

Speaker 5 47:42

And they're not seeing it.

Speaker 1 47:43

And they're not seeing it.

Speaker 5 47:44

That's totally.

Speaker 1 47:45

So I think let's answer it two ways. How would I do it? How would I approach this to somebody saying, I need help? If somebody wants and desires help, I would start, we start by helping them establish some parameters and accountability. Everybody needs accountability in their life.

Speaker 4 48:01

Yeah.

Speaker 1 48:02

Gosh, everybody. We see this in Colossians where scripture says, submit to one another, right? We all submit to Christ and we submit to one another. Everybody needs like I do not have autonomy at Snowbird. I had like it's funny how many times somebody will say, Hey, you the guy that owns Snowbird? I'm like, Nope. Nope.

Speaker 4 48:20

Are you the guy that owns Snowbird?

Speaker 1 48:22

Yep. That's not true. Yeah. And so I am accountable to people. Like my day-to-day, I'm accountable.

Speaker 4 48:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1 48:32

What I say on this podcast, I'm accountable. First to the Lord, but I'm accountable to people.

Speaker 4 48:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1 48:36

You know? Um and then we're accountable to one another in the way that we willingly submit to each other. That's why I think it's dangerous when somebody is uh, you know, somebody starts a ministry where they're the person at the top, and then they don't surround themselves with people that'll that that hold them accountable. Um and so there's no autonomy. Let's put some accountability in your life, people that'll help you.

Speaker 3 49:02

Yep.

Speaker 1 49:02

Let's build some parameters. Um, and then and then that's a that's a a we could take that conversation a lot further. Like, what do those parameters look like? What's, you know, do we put up some some media, I mean some phone interaction, texting and communication interaction, time spent with each other. Yeah. Well, we're gonna we're gonna work, typically I want to work as as a team. Let's bring some other some some friends in and some accountability and more maybe maybe more often what we see is hey, this is what you and I've seen at Snowbird, hey, we got to address this with these two girls. This is not healthy. We've got to address it. In that situation, if it's if it's at Snowbird, we're going to intervene. But now if I'm talking to somebody that sees this with some friends at school or someone in their youth group or a couple ladies in their church, that's a little different situation. Yeah. Um, and then I think that moves more into like Matthew 18 and the the biblical passages on confronting stuff in each other's lives. And that's where you need to be part of a church or ministry that's gonna step in and do that.

Speaker 5 50:13

Yeah, I agree. I think also I don't I want to be careful with this analogy, but I think it could be helpful. Like, I think you can handle this, especially if it's a girl or girls coming to you and saying, Hey, we've kind of gone too far in this friendship and they're looking for counsel and accountability. Treat it like when Blake and I first started dating, we really strive to not just hang out one-on-one. Like we would always strive to hang out with a group or go to dinner with another couple, or like, because no bad is gonna come from that. Playing cards at a friend's house with a big group of people or watching a movie with a big group. No bad is coming from that. We're still getting to hang out with each other with active accountability, you know? And so I think it could be something similar to that of like, okay, you girls can still hang out. It's not like you have to cut ties and be cold and rude to each other, but just put things in place to where you're hanging out in groups all the time, or you're just making it healthy because a codependent relations relationship and any way that you look at it is an unhealthy relationship. And so just putting things that are healthy and have boundaries and accountability, and it's not like, like I said, you don't have to cut this person off or cut ties. Like we want ultimately, we want you guys to reconcile to each other, but also to the Lord and like just redeem that relationship. But it in the same breath, it probably will look different. Yeah, you know, it it should look different. It's not you guys aren't gonna go back to normal, and there probably is gonna be some awkward moments and like tensions, yes, especially once you've kind of established this is codependent or addressed that this is a codependent relationship. It's gonna be awkward, but doesn't mean you need to immediately ghost this person or block them or cut them off. And there might be situations where that is the result, but I think ultimately strive for reconciliation and you know, like that Matthew 18. That's what I think of too. Like go about it in a way that's biblical and you're bringing other counsel in and not making a big spectacle of it, but also just handling it.

Speaker 1 52:16

That is very, very good and insightful. Um, just recognizing and treating it like what it is. You know, if I was if I was dealing with an addiction to a substance, let's say I had a an addiction to alcohol, I've got to create some parameters that don't allow me to consume that. Exactly. I've got an addiction to social media. I'm spending six hours of screen time a day, which I think that's actually a low number. That's very low, actually. Yeah.

Speaker 5 52:51

It's like 12 now, which is crazy.

Speaker 1 52:54

I had a guy text me this morning and say, Hey, such and such uh I I only be careful how I say this because people know exactly who it is. It's a it's a celebrity status person, and he's like, Hey man, this is what's going on. If you could just on social media, maybe you could reach out and help us with and I was like, uh I'm I'm not on social media. I'm a dinosaur. He's like, What? And I was like, Yeah, man, I don't do that. I don't I don't trust that I would keep that in check. You know, I don't want to wake up and look at Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube and this and what, you know, Facebook, and I don't want to do it on my lunch break and I don't want to do it when I'm going to bed. So for me, I just have to remove it because I don't trust me. And some people go, Well, I'm I don't have to do that. I've got I've got control. Okay, just look at your screen time.

Speaker 4 53:42

Yeah.

Speaker 1 53:43

I bet it's worse than you think.

Speaker 4 53:44

Sure.

Speaker 1 53:45

And so um it's it's like if somebody's got that addiction, we're gonna take steps to help them deal with it. Yeah, that's what this is. That's what this is. This is an addiction, it's a relationship addiction.

Speaker 5 53:57

And it's habits that have been it's hard to break a habit. It is because I've been biting my nails since I was like seven years old and I've tried to break the habit. It's hard, you know? So it's the same thing. You can have habits with people and relationships, and it it's hard to break it, you know. But just put things in place that's true.

Speaker 1 54:16

So true. I do have a theory about nail biting.

Speaker 5 54:19

Oh gosh, what is it?

Speaker 1 54:20

I think it's fine.

Speaker 5 54:22

My mom would mom, if you're listening, this is for you. She always used to say, You're not gonna get a husband if you keep biting your nails. Well, guess what, mom? And I'm still biting my nails.

Speaker 1 54:32

It's it's funny because it's all my life it's been this thing, you know, like nail biting is a habit. And I remember I did it when I was a kid. And uh, because let's be honest, nothing's weirder than a man with fingernails. That's weird. That's as weird as two dudes rubbing each other. Massage time. This goes back to that's what I call it because it it makes people feel uncomfortable. Oh, yeah. As it should. When those dudes uh we had a incident a few years ago where a group of guys were sitting in a in a little semicircle, giving each other back massages while they're watching a movie. And I found out about somebody sent me a picture.

Speaker 5 55:11

And he ripped those boys a new one.

Speaker 1 55:13

I sure did. And I said, Y'all rubbing each other, and I think it made them cringe.

Speaker 4 55:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1 55:18

And I'm like, Well, that's what you're doing.

Speaker 4 55:20

Yeah.

Speaker 1 55:21

And so um, I remember always it was like, uh, so anyway, long fingernails on a dude weird.

Speaker 3 55:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1 55:30

And so I'm uh it's 100% acceptable for a man to chew his fingernails. But uh, yeah, I remember it was always like nail biting is this bad habit. And I'm like, why is that a bad habit? You gotta keep your fingernails short if you can be proud. Even women, a lot of women want to grow long fingernails, but a lot of women don't because it gets in the way. I'm like, well, chew them suckers off. Don't worry about it.

Speaker 4 55:52

Yeah, that's what I do.

Speaker 1 55:53

Wrong with you.

Speaker 4 55:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1 55:56

Um, that's funny. So anyway, but yes, to your point about breaking a habit, the the whole point of the nail button thing is when you when you want to break a habit, you it does not happen accidentally. It's it takes a lot of intention out.

Speaker 5 56:08

Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 56:10

It's not easy.

Speaker 5 56:11

Yeah, a lot of it's like the same, like you just said, with an addiction or like anything. You have to put physical things because okay, a lot of times sin starts obviously mentally. Your brain goes there mentally and then you act on it. So, kind of working it in reverse, if you're trying to stop that, you need to put physical things to make you think, oh, I need to stop that, or like, oh, I'm I'm going to bite my nails, oh, but I have gum and so let me stop. You know what I mean? Like you almost have to work in reverse to counteract that habit to like rewire the way you think of it, the way you handle it and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 56:44

But my granddad, when I was a kid, put Tabasco on the ends of my fingernails.

Speaker 5 56:50

Yeah.

Speaker 1 56:51

I wouldn't chew them.

Speaker 5 56:52

Yeah. I used to, like when I was little, I used to like suck, you know, like little kids will suck their fingers. And my mom always told me to stop. And she even tried, like, there's some fingernail polish now that tastes bad, and I never would. And you know what? It bit me in the butt because I grew up with buck teeth because of it.

Speaker 1 57:07

My tooth grew in and they were like, I will say, buck teeth. I do think if you're a parent and your kids sucking their fingers, their thumb, you know, nothing's weirder than a four-year-old with a pacifier or sucking their thumb, you know. They're they're that's not the same as nail cheeks.

Speaker 5 57:21

Yeah, sure. Sure. Break that. And your kids might grow up with buck teeth like me.

Speaker 1 57:25

Kilby was a pacifier kid. She's the only one I had that was like that. And I remember she was about two, and I'm like, it's time. We're done. And I remember driving down the road. Somebody had, I think somebody told us to do this. Took it and went, say bye, and threw it out the window. And in her mind, it was gone.

Speaker 5 57:43

Honestly, don't make a big deal of it. Yeah, it was just gone. I'm like, it's gone.

Speaker 1 57:47

I it was bedtime that night. I need my passive. I remember what she called it passy. I'm like, I went out the window. You saw it. Yeah. You saw that happen. It's gone. That's somebody else say they cut it.

Speaker 5 57:59

Yeah, I've seen that.

Speaker 1 58:00

They cut the the f half of it off, where it's like you don't get the same sensation or whatever. It's funny. Um, what else? Is that did we cover it?

Speaker 5 58:08

I think that pretty much covered it. We gave examples, kind of gave some signs, covered what now.

Building Healthy Friend Groups Long Term

Speaker 1 58:16

I think this is a big deal for people, and I think a lot of people already know it. Yeah. But I think a lot of people are gonna go, oh, I think I'm in a codependent relationship, or maybe my, you know, my daughter, I don't think that's healthy or whatever. And um, not to not to just scare you, but uh I believe unaddressed codependent female relationships more times than not lead to some sort of same-sex relationship.

Speaker 5 58:39

I agree.

Speaker 1 58:40

Same-sex attraction or an emotional or even a physical relationship.

Speaker 5 58:44

Yeah. And I think ways to preemptively combat this, just talk about healthy friendships and relationships. Like let that be a topic of conversation in your household, in your youth ministry. And if you're a parent or like if you're younger or single, whatever, just strive to have healthy relationships and friendships. Like I really do, like Layle is probably one of my closest friends. And it's like we can go a week without talking and pick right back up, and neither of us are butthurt about it. Or we can go a week where I'm calling her every day and I'm like, hey, I'm really struggling in this area. And so just strive like for a healthy. If you feel icky or sticky or weird or dependent on this person, that's a red flag. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you don't need to depend on this person. Granted, Lely has offered me wise counsel and has helped me and encouraged me, and we've laughed a lot. But I'm when I get into an issue where I'm struggling with something, my immediate thought isn't, I've got to tell Laley. You know what I mean? Like a good perspective. Granted, I'm using Laley as an example just because it's one of my closest friends, but I think I said this at the beginning, but it really does boil down to are you relying on this friend or this person or this relationship, or are you relying on the Lord? Like your instant reaction should be, oh, I need to go to the Lord. You know, I need to be dependent on the Lord and not dependent on this human that's going to fail me inevitably. You know? And so I think just focus on healthy friendships and yeah.

Speaker 1 1:00:16

And I've seen, I will say that I've seen in that in your friend group. I mean, obviously Laley's my daughter, so I've got a front row seat. But you and Laley, and then that that friend group has kind of ebbed and flowed. Like there was a point where it was a group of girls that are now moved on in life. Some are married, some are in their career. Yeah, but then there's others that have sort of come in, like Katie Hayes was later to that friend group. The twins, um, who a lot of our listeners won't know who the who I'm talking about, but a couple gals that they were right at Snowbird. I was their counselor, and you were their counselor.

Speaker 5 1:00:52

And it's like I would have never thought, oh, they're gonna be one of my closest friends one day.

Speaker 1 1:00:56

Yeah, you were their camp counselor.

Speaker 5 1:00:57

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:00:58

Then they came, we're in the institute. That friend group, I would say now is kind of you, Laley, Katie Hayes, the twins. That group of five, it looked, you know, three years ago, it was you, Laley, Emma, Jordan. That's right. It was a different group of girls. And so I think that's a healthy sign when it when it sort of ebbs and flows.

Speaker 5 1:01:21

And it's like for me and Laylee, it's not we have bad blood or beef with any of those girls that have left. Life happens. They move on, they get married, they move away, they're caught up in a career. And it's like we still call on the phone and still have a group chat, but it's they're not sitting at home mad that me and Laylee have made new friends and vice versa. Me and Layle aren't like they've gone off and made new friends at college without us. No, if anything, we're joyful. Like we're like, oh my gosh, I gotta meet your new friends. Like, and so I think that too. And also I want to speak to this as well. I think a lot of times in Christian circles, people can get caught up with exclusivity. Is that the right word?

Speaker 1 1:02:01

Yeah.

Speaker 5 1:02:01

Excluding people.

Speaker 1 1:02:03

Oh, excluding. Yeah. Not exclusivity. Yeah, yeah, just excluding people.

Speaker 5 1:02:07

Excluding people.

Speaker 1 1:02:08

Yeah.

Speaker 5 1:02:09

And I think I want you guys to hear me out. I'm not saying be so insulated that no one else can get in and you don't hang out with anyone. But I also think, like, for me, hanging out with Lely fills my cup. I don't have to perform. She like we know each other well. We can sit in silence and watch a movie, or we can go be crazy and poop in a bag and light it on fire.

Speaker 1 1:02:31

And true story. That's personal experience.

Speaker 5 1:02:34

You are crazy. But so I think like people like Lely for me, that's just natural, like very dear, close friend of mine. And then no shade on any other of my other friendships, but there's some where you just have to work at it more, you know? And so there's some days where I just want to get coffee with Lely. And it's no hate to anyone else, or but me and Laley just got to catch up, or we just gotta talk about this, or like I just want my cup to be filled a little bit with this good friendship that I don't have to work at. And so I think sometimes people in Christian circles will be like, Well, you need to invite me and me and me. And then it's like, well, now I'll have a coffee with 15 people, you know.

Speaker 1 1:03:12

The whole point of this was not to invite you.

Speaker 5 1:03:14

Exactly. And there's time and places for big events, and so I I don't want you guys to hear me out and be like, oh, be exclusive. No, but I also think there's a time and a place for just that one-on-one or one on two or three, and just have that time of those good friends, and then there's also a time to push yourself and go make friends and invite a girl in that is sitting alone or you know, et cetera.

Speaker 1 1:03:38

But I love that. Something I always did, uh, and I would uh maybe this is a word to parents. If you've got kids that are in middle school or high school, or you're preparing for them to go to middle school or high school, I really encouraged my girls. This is more of a girl thing, but I encouraged my girls, man, sit at lunch with the kid that you wouldn't normally sit with and nobody else is sitting with, you know, or or whatever. And both my girls did that and it was very impactful on other people's lives.

Speaker 4 1:04:08

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:04:09

Um, and I think when you do that, it takes a lot of the jealous girl stuff out of play, you know. And I mean I can remember having I remember having uh someone Laley came to me because somebody had talked to her and one of y'all. Maybe it was her and Katie because they lived together. Somebody had talked to her and said, basically, I feel like you're y'all are being unhealthy, codependent. Laley's like, No, we're not. Yeah. It's good to be able to say, to, to know, no, that's not true. Yeah. It's not a codependency.

Speaker 5 1:04:43

This is what codependency looks like and that's not what this is. We're roommate very healthy. We share bills.

Speaker 1 1:04:48

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 1:04:48

But also, like, we can go off and do our own thing and be fine, you know.

Speaker 1 1:04:53

And it revealed when we I know it revealed what I already knew to be true, that young lady was dealing with some of that jealousy that you're talking about, I think. Yeah. So just be able to live confidently and know who you are in Christ. And yeah.

Speaker 5 1:05:09

And like I said at the beginning, I think especially for girls and women, the more you are feeling pressure in a friendship to, I don't know, get this person to like you, or if you're feeling jealous, that tells me a lot that you're not looking to the Lord for that fulfillment and that relationship and comfort. And I've I mean, I'm preaching to myself as well here. Like, I'll catch myself being like, Did I make them mad? Are they mad at me? Are we on good terms? And I have to pause and be like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm one, you're overthinking. And two, I'm not seeking the Lord for that fulfillment. I'm seeking other girls who are also in their walk and journey with the Lord. So yeah, they're gonna mess up and make a comment that might hurt my feelings. And guess what? Move on. You know, like yeah, it's gonna be okay. Yeah. Sweet.

Final Takeaways And Listener Feedback

Speaker 1 1:05:56

I want to say before we sign off, I just want to say to you, JB, I'm I'm really grateful. I feel like, you know, we get this feedback a lot, but I'm just thankful for for your uh insight and wisdom because I think these are the types of topics and issues that I can speak to a biblical truth, but to hear it from a young woman who's in this stage of life and sort of in this generation, I'm just grateful. I think, you know, I your maturity is beyond your years. And, you know, I'm I'm grateful. And I think you get that feedback when women are and men, yeah, men, it'd be strong.

Speaker 4 1:06:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:06:37

Do what I've been talking to you and like, hey, I love I love the uh, you know, what you bring to the podcast. Anyway, I'm just grateful. It it's harder, it would be much more difficult for me. We go back to when I was tackling this type of content, this just brings so much more to the table. So anyway, I'm I'm grateful. I just want to our people to hear you hear me say that to you. Um, but that's I got that's it. We think I think we covered it as good as we can. Maybe let the fireworks begin. Let's see what people let us know what y'all think. You got questions, you want us to circle back and follow up.

Speaker 5 1:07:10

Each codependent relationship is different, each situation is different. So we're doing this very broad baseline, kind of giving you guys an idea of what it is, what it looks like, how to combat it. Um, but yeah, each we can't speak to every single specific situation. That's right. Yeah. But yeah, hope this was helpful.

Speaker 1 1:07:28

Yeah, let us know what you think.

Speaker 5 1:07:29

Yeah.

Speaker 1:07:32

Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at swoutfitters.com to see all of our programming and resources. And we'll see you next week on No Sanity Required.