The Sheriff Who Caught Eric Rudolph | Part 2

Part 2 of our conversation with former Cherokee County Sheriff Keith “Bumper” Lovin covers the capture of Eric Rudolph and the chaos that followed his arrest in western North Carolina. Keith shares firsthand stories from the manhunt, the face-to-face identification, and the pressure of managing one of the country’s most high-profile fugitives in a small-town jail.

We also discuss the investigation, the challenges of searching the Appalachian Mountains, and the questions that still remain about Rudolph’s years on the run.

The Sheriff Who Caught Eric Rudolph | Part 1

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Transcript

Part Two Setup And Nicknames

SPEAKER_08 0:00

Hey, welcome to this week's episode, No Sanity Required. This is gonna be part two to the the conversation we had with Keith Lovin, former sheriff of Cherokee County, aka Bumper. Um and it's funny, I thought Bumper's nickname came from something in his law enforcement career, you know, where he pit maneuvered somebody, apparently as a high school nickname.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Wait, why do you why was it?

SPEAKER_08 0:24

It's funny, it was because there was a kid that played football for Cherokee.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_08 0:29

His nickname was Boper.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Oh, and he would like impersonate him or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 0:34

And somebody thought it was Bumper.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_08 0:37

It was like just a funny story. It stuck. Yeah, like. That's funny. I had a I graduated high school with a really good friend of mine that was a highway patrolman. He's retired now, but he worked with with Bumper in the state, you know, in a highway patrol. And I remember he would call him Bump. And and I'm like, that name stuck to the point that in his career, even when he became sheriff, people still called him. Yeah. And the other day I saw uh in the so I told a story a few summers ago, maybe last summer. I used a sermon illustration where I talked about Keith Lovin, Bumper, helping me out in a situation where I was getting a ticket. And uh is a funny story, crazy story. And um and so his last name's Lovin, L-O-I-N. And I saw a coffee cup that said Lovin' for Sheriff, and it was from his re-election campaign one year.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Was it in the metal building?

SPEAKER_08 1:36

Yeah, somebody, so I forget who got it, but they got it at a thrift store, a local thrift store. Yeah. Yep. So great.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Loving for sheriff.

SPEAKER_08 1:44

Loving for sheriff. Um, his son, he's got three boys, he talked about in that, but one of his sons ran for, I think it was maybe student body president of Andrews High School. It might have been when he was at Western Carolina, but his campaign slogan was get you some love in here.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

That's funny. That's a good last name. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 2:04

Play on the words. But uh, I wanted to set this second episode up by talking about, okay, first off, how good of a storyteller is he?

SPEAKER_03 2:14

So good. And we were joking, like, just if I passed him in the street, I would just think nothing about it. He has such crazy stories, he's lived so many lives, like such an awesome guy and a great storyteller.

SPEAKER_08 2:28

I think one thing that stood out to me, um, you know, I'm from his generation. He's he's he's actually he's he's a good bit older than me. I think he's probably he's more, he's at least 10 years older than me, maybe 15, I don't

Policing Before GPS And Body Cams

SPEAKER_08 2:46

know. But but I we still so when I was a little boy was when he was coming into law enforcement. And that era was you're talking about pre-GPS, pre-cell phones, pre-digital age, pre- uh cameras, pre-body cameras, yeah. A lot of times, I mean, the first part of his career they didn't wear any kind of body armor.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_08 3:09

And it was a little it was just a different era of like chasing bad guys. So like you would have chases. Like nowadays, you're an idiot if you run from the police because they're gonna have drones on the station, helicopters, they're tracking you with, you know, like yeah, it's almost impossible to get away. Well, back then it's like the dukes of hazard. Like just if you can get to a back road and outrun one deputy, you might get away, you know. And so he had come up in that era, and so I think he experienced things that nowadays a guy might go through a whole career never experienced.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Yeah, I mean, there were so many things, like he had story after story after story of standoff chase, like shootout, like so many things. I was like, this is crazy.

SPEAKER_08 3:52

When I asked him if he would do, like, you mind telling that story about the shootout the shootout in uh Topton, he's like, Yeah, yes, yeah, so crazy. But how crazy that guy didn't die.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 4:04

I because when I couldn't remember how that went down. I knew that guy had passed away, but apparently passed away some years later. Yeah, and I thought he died in that shootout, so I was wanting to be sensitive to that when I said, Hey, you mind talking about that? He's like, Yeah, I mean shot one pellet went through that guy's heart and he lived. And he had the leg, too. It sealed up with a blood clot.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Crazy.

SPEAKER_08 4:25

It was wild.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 4:27

That guy uh that was in that shooting with him, the other uh the other trooper, Scott Fletcher. He's he's known around here as Fletch, and I know him really good. He's an awesome dude. Uh he just moved, he just left the area. His wife was the principal at Murphy when Murphy High School when Laylee was in school.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_08 4:47

She was the principal at Andrews High School before that, when Tuck was at Andrews, she was at Andrews, and then she moved down to Murphy, and now she's uh I think she's superintendent of schools in Transylvania County, which is Brevard.

SPEAKER_04 4:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 4:59

But uh he's um he's an awesome dude. Both those guys, they're so fun to but anyway, um a lot of that stuff, like that um the manhunt in Harmon's Den, Giles Harmon, the guy that got shot through the chest on the side of the interstate.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Crazy.

SPEAKER_08 5:19

I remember so I was in like I think I was in seventh grade when that happened. And there was this like stay in the house. He's because that's the county I grew up. That's a couple counties.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

He went on the run.

SPEAKER_08 5:31

He just went in the mountains, yeah. And nobody knew where he was. Crazy. And we went for a couple days.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 5:36

And I remember, I feel like I remember we were at church, like it was a Sunday night or a Wednesday night. We're at church, and they're saying, Okay, there's a manhunt going on in the county. This guy killed this trooper. We pray him for the trooper's family. And then it was like I was always out running in the woods, and we played out on the and my parents were like, Hey, stay close to the house, don't get out.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

And that is crazy.

SPEAKER_08 5:59

So then four decades later, asking him about that.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Yeah, that was wow. Yeah, recall it all. Yeah, and even it was so cool to know like he has spent time with Eric Rudolph, like, probably had meals with him, sat with him, like touched him. Like, it's so crazy because you watch like true crime documentaries or you hear podcasts and stuff like that. But it's like we were sitting with the real deal. Like the real deal. It was so I just kept thinking back to that. I was like, he put cuffs on this guy, like he dealt with him like face to face, so crazy.

SPEAKER_08 6:35

And he dealt with them, and it it's you know, to hear him talk about how Rudolph had like a degree of respect for local law enforcement, but did not like the government, hated the feds, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

I bet that created a cool, cool relationship. I don't know if that's like the right term, but an interesting dynamic between the two, you know? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 6:54

There was a guy, I don't know if you remember, we were trying to think of a guy's name, and I was like, I think his name's Keith. Um, the guy's name's Kenny Cope. We uh me and Bumper were texting later that day, and Kenny Cope was a Macon County deputy that initially in the Rudolph Manhunt, I think there were as many as 300 agents in the valley here, and then eventually they started moving them out, and Kenny Cope was a local guy that kind of continued to work in the Nanahala area. And Kenny Cope had like known Eric Rudolph when they were kids.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_08 7:31

And Eric Rudolph like had a lot of respect for Kenny Cope, it was like he respected the local law enforcement, and there was one point where he was gonna blow some stuff up, but realized oh yeah, there was local guys. Kenny Cope was one of those guys.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

That's when he told him where the explosives were.

SPEAKER_08 7:47

Yeah, he's like, Yep.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

Dang, that is crazy. I don't want to spoil too much, yeah, because that's what this is what is. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I'm so grateful that Bumper came in and yeah, we we sat for like close to three hours and just listened to him talk, and it was never even got out of that chair. No, no, we can't.

SPEAKER_08 8:07

I kept having to say, all right, we gotta take a break. My ADD self, I'm like, all right, you need to take a break. I gotta walk around. Yeah, he just sat right there and keep talking. He's we'll definitely have him back.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 8:16

Um, yeah,

Setting The Record Straight On Rudolph

SPEAKER_08 8:17

yeah. And the one other thing before we get into this episode, there was, if you go back to last year when we did the air crude off episode, there's a couple of things that I got wrong that he cleared up. Yeah, like he said that Rudolph was in Burger King. He was in Burger King and Murphy.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 8:37

And he saw it come up on the TV screen. Yeah, restaurants will have uh like Fox News or CNN play, and he saw it come up. I said that that happened while he was in his trailer. He saw it come up, and then he went to buy supplies, hit the Burger King, got some food. And so I had that timeline at basic same same events, but I just had a couple things switched up, and then and then the one thing that I wanted clarity from him on that I was glad to get was the the his predecessor, a sheriff named Jack Thompson, was the sheriff when it started. And I thought Jack Thompson was like watching Rudolph and eventually was like, we got to go home. He didn't he didn't confirm that. Bumper didn't, but I read that in a Jack Thompson interview.

SPEAKER_05 9:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 9:29

So it might have been that might, I think that still happened that Jack Thompson was there. It was real cold. He was there with another deputy watching Rudolph's trailer. He's like, we can arrest him right now.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

And then the FBI called him off and said, Don't do it.

SPEAKER_08 9:41

Yeah. And Bumper said, I don't know if he did that. I think he just told him I can go get it.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

Yeah, I'm sure he knew exactly which collar he lived in. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 9:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 9:50

Yeah. And then in the book, and Bumper said he read the book because he's the one I think that told me about it. Um, Rudolph, like that the story was told that he hid the truck and then he hiked on the main road all the way to Fires Creek, which would have been a 30-mile walk before he went into the mountains. And Bumper said, he says, ah, that's what he says, but I don't know. I think he had help.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Yeah, that part was super interesting to me.

SPEAKER_08 10:17

And I mean, I trust him. Yeah. He's in the thick of it.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

Yeah. Which, if you think about it, five years in the wilderness, obviously Bumper said, you know, he had lost some weight, but it wasn't that extreme. And his beard was clean, pretty clean cut. It's like you think about it. If he's actually in the wilderness, he would be emaciated. And I don't care if you're trying to live off the land, what like eating some berries, maybe kill a squirrel or something. Like he would, I really thought that was interesting.

SPEAKER_08 10:47

Yeah, we're getting ready to record an episode about your recent adventure. And you think about how long you were out there.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

Now imagine how quickly I lost weight.

SPEAKER_08 10:56

Even like Imagine five years.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_08 10:58

Because you lost like 13 pounds or something.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 11:01

Just like that. And we my family, we like to watch that show alone. And those people, they get to about the ones that really go the distance at about the 50 day mark, they're they're hurting.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_08 11:15

Five years?

SPEAKER_03 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 11:17

And somebody say, Yeah, but that's this isn't the Arctic Circle. I've been at 5,000 feet in January here, and it's too below zero, and the wind will knock your head off.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Yes, yeah. I thought that was very interesting.

SPEAKER_08 11:28

The winters here are rough.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And five like, oh gosh. The summers are rough too. Hot, muggy, rain. Like that's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 11:37

So wouldn't you love? I would love to know. We maybe never know.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Oh, probably not.

SPEAKER_08 11:42

But he did say, he said, I hope that at some point he sits there long enough that he's willing to say, okay, take some more stuff.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

I feel like at that because we at one point asked him, like, what does his day look like? And he said it's what 12 hours just staring at a wall.

SPEAKER_08 11:57

23.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

23 hours staring at a wall and one hour he gets to go out in the yard.

SPEAKER_08 12:03

And I think he said 23 and a half. I think he gets 30 minutes. I I mean it'll come up in the episode. Um, so y'all will be able to correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think he said 23 and a half and 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Crazy.

SPEAKER_08 12:16

23 and a half. So even if it's 23. Yeah, 23 hours a day, the size of what me and you are sitting in here. Just sitting there.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Crazy. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. Hopefully he'll crack one of these days and come out and give us all the details.

SPEAKER_08 12:32

And me and you can interview him.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

Yeah. We go to Colorado penitentiary. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 12:36

Imagine we got an exclusive interview. That would be crazy. Like the one podcast out of Andrews, North Carolina. That's who I'm going to give it to. Honestly, I feel like you would. I do too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

Not too far off. I do too.

SPEAKER_08 12:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Sweet. Yeah. I hope you guys enjoy these past couple episodes. And hopefully we didn't spoil too much. I don't think so. It's a crazy, crazy story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 12:56

Let's get into part two of our conversation with Bumper.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

Sweet.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Welcome

Rudolph’s Background And Bomb Timeline

SPEAKER_02 13:05

to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.

SPEAKER_08 13:17

So let's get into with that. Like that's a good lead-in to because you had I I wanted these guys and our folks to know you had a yeah, you lived two careers in one career. I mean, you had a wealth of experience. You go into the your first year as sheriff, Rudolph's already been on the run for four years. Wow. The the manhunt started in 98.

SPEAKER_07 13:40

Correct.

SPEAKER_08 13:40

And uh we know now he was responsible for the Centennial Park bombing in Atlanta in '96. He hit some other targets. I think one incoming Georgia Abortion Clinic, one uh gay nightclub in Atlanta. But then in early part of 98, he hits the Birmingham Abortion Clinic.

SPEAKER_06 13:59

Correct.

SPEAKER_08 14:01

And if I if I remember, uh, and I read the book Lone Wolf, which is the only, I think, really authenticated accounting of it. It kind it comes closer than most stuff. Correct. Yeah, that you're the one that I said, okay, I want to read what should I get? You're like, this is the closest you're gonna get to the and so I read it a couple times. But uh the thing that stands out to me, Jack Thompson was sheriff at the time. Correct. Touched off. And he had he been sheriff quite a while.

SPEAKER_07 14:31

Yeah, Jack had three terms. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 14:33

He he he was sheriff for 12 years. Okay. So in 98, he's been in for a while.

SPEAKER_07 14:38

Yeah, he he came in right after Blaine Stalcott time. Okay, and sure Stalkup was uh tied up in the the vote buying scheme thing that came through with Clay County and Cherokee County. And so when Blaine was removed from office, the coroner took over a short period of time, and then Jack was elected sheriff, and he was sheriff for 12 years, and then there was a sheriff between me and him, Alan Kilpatrick. Yep. And then I took over and I was in there for the next 12.

SPEAKER_08 15:10

Yep. And uh was Jack Thompson prior deputy, what was his background?

SPEAKER_07 15:16

Jack uh spent most of his career working for U.S. Forest Service.

SPEAKER_08 15:20

Okay. Was he a game warden? No, it's so non-law enforcement.

SPEAKER_07 15:23

Non non-law enforcement perspective.

SPEAKER_08 15:25

Did you know you could be sheriff with no law enforcement background? It's like running for congressman or so I could run for sheriff.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah. Okay, I'll think about that.

SPEAKER_08 15:33

You should I'll be your chief deputy.

SPEAKER_07 15:36

There was actually a period of time when I first began in law enforcement where you could be a judge and be a lay person. I actually had one with a C police officer in in Hickory. You didn't have to have a law degree to be be a judge. Get elected. That has since changed for good reason. For good reasons. For good. Yeah. That's kind of like I'm gonna see a heart specialist, but never been to school for school, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 16:01

So so Jack Thompson, tell me if this is accurate. Let's start with Rudolph, he he does what he does, and people can do their own research, but it's a crazy turn of events that that that put him on the radar for that. Circumstance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

So he ends up I was gonna say when he first bombed in Atlanta, he wasn't like a suspect, right? It wasn't until he bombed in Alabama that they started to put the pizzas together. Correct. And then from Alabama he came up here.

SPEAKER_07 16:35

Well, he he was already here. Oh, okay. He was living here. He was living off McClure Road, which is essentially just west of Murphy, right crossing fracture supply. Yeah. And uh so he'd been here and he'd lived his family moved here from Florida when he was a child and lived in Nina Halo. So he had a lot of his youth growing up in Nina Hala in Macon County, lives in Topton for a period of time. Uh he was living in a trailer here in Murphy when all this transpired. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:08

So he he'd been here pretty much all the time. He he did a short stint in the military.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 17:14

Uh, but he was discharged because he liked marijuana.

SPEAKER_08 17:19

So And he how uh uh just for folks that wouldn't know, we talked about this in that last episode, but how did what was the lead that turned law enforcement on to him here?

SPEAKER_07 17:33

His you know, his bombs had progressed over the years. The first bomb was was essentially like a big several about three big pipe bombs. Which were constructed and and they worked, and I mean that they were in effectively without question. But in in the Olympic park bombing, uh uh you know, that they actually went after another person being involved for a long time, Richard Jewell.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 18:05

And and as it turned out, that turned not the case, but that bomb was in the a backpack, and he had billed it and uh put a piece of metal in the backpack so it would focus the blast in a certain way. But fortunately, someone had actually looked in that pack and and so and turned it a little bit up. So it's a lot of people say because the blast didn't go the way he originally wanted it to go, it went a little bit higher still. You know, people were killed and maimed and uh but it you know uh could have been worse. It could have been a lot worse. So then and and and then then they went to timed uh bombs. Uh he went from black powder, which is the pipe bomb would be a black part powder and essentially in a steel two-inch pipe, to you know, dynamite, which he stole from Austin Powder Company over in uh north of Ashwell.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 19:06

About almost 400 sticks or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 19:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 19:10

A good bit of explosives. And that's what he started making his bombs up. So there there was a progression of of his bombs and until you get to the last one, which is in Birmingham, which is a remote, remotely detonated bomb. Uh he actually placed that bomb sometime the night before and was watching it, turned over a planter where the bomb was, watched the police officer bend over to send up the platter, the the planter, and set the bomb off. Wow. And then uh of course, uh, and interesting enough, I I talked to the widow of that officer a few months ago. Really? Yeah, she she reached out to me. They're they're thinking about doing another documentary about the whole story. And I've I've talked to, you know, like one other group of people about my Rudolph experience. I mean, I I don't mind to, I just never do it. But it's uh once that bomb was set off, he uh uh he has to go back to his truck and and he's got a wig on.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 20:19

And you know, you got people running around because the bombs went off and it's pretty good bomb, you know. People are panicking, and somebody sees this one person just calmly walking away. Not panicked. Not panicked. Well, you know, they get suspicious, they start trying to follow him, lose him, and then uh he's picked up again by an attorney and another person in the McDonald's.

SPEAKER_05 20:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 20:44

And they, you know, they're able to describe him somewhat and what vehicles in, and then he gets up, gets back up on Interstate coming home, and almost has a collision with some lady, and and uh he gets very upset, a little bit of road rage, and pulls up beside her and you know, gives her the one-finger wave, and and uh she takes his number down because you know I'm gonna write by this person, they start putting these things together. Well, it's their person. Now they have a tag number. And I did not know that. A a little bit of a description of the person. So they call that in and you know, they say, Well, we've got an address. We can we can go, you know, we'll get on this. Well, the uh the address uh don't come back to a Murphy address at that time. You can I mean you you run a corporation, you can put any address on your registration to tell what you need to put on there. So Rudolph is actually in Burger King and Murphy. And season at that time they had TV screams up where you could watch TV and they come home and say they're looking for this person, and it's him. He's eating eating somebody. And he leaves there, goes straight. That time there was uh Bilo there. Now we're the grocery store. He goes in and buys some supplies, goes home, puts some stuff together, and walks out walks out the door so quick he leaves the lights on and door open. And now he's on the run. In the woods. Well, he's on the run. Uh-huh. You know, whether it's in the woods or or what is or anything else, they would eventually find his truck over on Mark's Creek, straight essentially pretty much straight across the mountain from where his trailer was.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 22:33

Uh so now they're looking for him. They'll come in and they're trying to run around and figure all this stuff out.

FBI Control And Mountain Search Reality

SPEAKER_08 22:41

Was Jack Thompson did is that true that he and the deputy or two had eyes on him at some point in that part of it?

SPEAKER_07 22:51

No, they didn't ever have their eyes on him, but but I, you know, I probably, you know, there was a mindset that time that the local people would help him. So they kind of shut local law enforcement out and kind of kept him out of picture. I mean, pretty much to about the time Yeah. That part was accurate.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Yeah, that's what I think So the FBI just came in pretty much immediately and just took over.

SPEAKER_07 23:17

They come in and run around looking at stuff, and oh, by the way, we're looking for this, and they would start asking for information, they would get the feedback.

SPEAKER_08 23:23

They didn't utilize local law enforcement early on like they should have.

SPEAKER_07 23:27

No. And and I can kind of see that in one perspective, but in another perspective, it's it's it's not good management not to get all the inform. You can't make an informed decision without good information or without all the information you get. So it kind of stayed that way for a long time through that. Uh I've got a picture somewhere of me and Jack talking over where they recovered his truck at. You were a trooper.

SPEAKER_08 23:52

I was a trooper at that time. Sheriff's there, and y'all were talking. Just talking about it. Because at that point, were you senior trooper in the area?

SPEAKER_07 23:59

Uh well, I I don't know if I was senior air, but I I was a senior trooper.

SPEAKER_08 24:03

You were a cat like a ranked trooper at the time.

SPEAKER_07 24:05

Yeah, and and I I was always there because it was just a circus spectacle, you know, everybody with the presses iron. You know, my job is to keep the rope open so people in March Creek can go back and forth and school buses get through and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_08 24:19

Several days before that truck was found up here.

SPEAKER_07 24:22

Yes, sir. Yes. And that comes local tip. Hey, somebody parked truck on my property, come check it out and come check it out, it's his truck. He parked it and walked. Walked or got a ride. Got a ride. Or or who who who knows? He knows, but he ain't told anybody.

SPEAKER_04 24:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 24:39

So uh he goes on a run. The FBI comes in and and essentially their goal was to try to reconstruct his life timeline from from about 12 years before, 12 years old. So they would try to get information and eventually they would develop some forensic evidence and try to go back because a lot of these bomb comp components were bought locally. Uh, you know, and I personally remember running into Rudolph two times before all this happened.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

Really?

SPEAKER_07 25:13

Uh one time was when he was at my brother-in-law's hardware store in town back there buying pipe. Yeah, he bought stuff off Lyle.

SPEAKER_08 25:23

Yeah. I still hold that over Lyle's head. Lyle lives in Blacksburg. We stayed with him when my son was playing at Virginia Tech. We'd stay with Lyle Nancy some, and I'm like, hey man, you ever get over your conscience about selling bomb materials to Rudolph?

SPEAKER_07 25:37

But he he and they come back and question twice that you know, like some of the wire connectors, alarm clock.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 25:45

At least one of the bombs. And I I remember that case because Lyle had a bro my brother-in-law at that time had a guy work for him that was left-handed. Which, you know, he's trying to t tell him how he had the because you buy the pipe, it's not threaded. You have to you gotta think that you gotta thread it. So he's trying to teach him how to thread it. So I remember another time. I just happened to run into him. I'd I was working and they was coming out of Ray White's and I was going in. Just spoke to him. How you doing it?

SPEAKER_03 26:14

Wow. That is crazy. So was he always kind of like a loner?

SPEAKER_07 26:19

Like was he pretty quiet or well it it as as far as I know. Yeah. Uh you know, that's the only two times I encountered him. I I knew I knew some of the people he some of the people he associated with.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

Yeah, he didn't necessarily have like a reputation before this. No, he didn't. Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_08 26:38

There was a guy who was a plumber that bought his house off of him, bought their house. That guy moved here, I think, from Florida, and when we first started camp, our first cabin, we I we plumbed it, but we needed a plumbing contractor to s to pull the permit for us. Yeah and this guy agreed to do it, and so we kind of plumbed under him, and then he came in and inspected it, and then he pulled the permits and all that. I can't remember that guy's name, but I remember sitting around talking to him, and he had some pretty strong anti-government sentiments, you know. And he's like, Yeah, I bought I bought Rudolph's house off of him. This was when Rudolph first went on the run. And he's telling the story.

SPEAKER_07 27:16

Is that the one that talked him?

SPEAKER_08 27:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 27:19

One of the hidden room?

SPEAKER_08 27:20

Yeah. I can't remember that guy's name now. I think he left the country or died. I don't remember that that plumber, but yeah, that was the house. That was the house. And so and this would have been the Birmingham deal happened in January, February '98, and this was in April that we're plumbing this cabin, Freedom Cabin. Wow. And this plumber had had stayed with Rudolph when he bought his house. He stayed with him for a while until Rudolph moved out, and his guy moved his family in. Oh my goodness. Pretty interesting first-person conversation. Yeah. But I okay, if I remember correctly, he's in the area, but and that's that winter, and everybody, I think, were like, he must have moved on, and it kind of calmed down. And then July, there's a there's a sighting or an interaction somewhere up off the lake, or and the guy that had to help food store down back then.

SPEAKER_07 28:17

The help uh Nordman. Nordman, yeah. Was later on. I mean, they had searched for quite some time and no good, run out leads, had teams run around everywhere looking at every breaking enter to academy, uh, to a local cabin, because they theorized what he's gonna, you know, there's so many properties that don't have people around, he's gonna watch all his poppies break in, and you know. So they would they run all that stuff down, anything that looked like a lead, and it didn't. So they wound everything down, and then suddenly, you know, the Norman thing comes up. And and he knew Norman, because George Norman lived in downhala, and it was also supposedly uh Norman had a daughter that had a relationship over the years with Rudolph. You know, like a personal relationship. And and so suppose he came out and forced him to get him supplies and you know, all this, all this stuff, and and actually knew what supplies he got. Having a health food store, I mean a lot of grains and stuff you can make bread and and even five gallons of honey. And and you know, me being a former beekeeper, I said, well, he he ain't living outside with five gallons of honey. Because if you get honey wet, it's no good. It's the only thing that breaks down honey is water. So I kind of told me that, but but they they come running back in, you know, and they're looking for this truck. They eventually find a truck over uh Tooney Gap. Toonie Gap. You you go like you're going to Big Choggy and there's a road that goes all the way over and to Tuscity. They find a truck over there and they're looking. They come in and take over Apple Tree Campground, which is a forest service campground, and you know, again, you know, the security for the campground is the Georgia Department of Corrections. I don't know how they come up with that, but you know, nothing really local. I go over to the trooper because they asked me to come over and talk to him about traffic situations, because you got all these people running around and helicopters flying in and out. So I go over there and, you know, the head FBI guy said, What do you think? I said, Oh, that's impressive. It's spectacle. Of course, Trooper at that time, he said, Well, what can we do different? I said, uh my guess would be get rid of most of this and just, you know, pair some of your people with some of the local people that know people in the community and that have a relationship and they can tow back and forth. He said, You know how much that'll cost? Oh. And I said, I'm looking at two helicopters sitting in the pasture, and I'm I'm looking at like 30-some Portageons lined up.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 31:03

Who they had a nurse hired just for sanitation for the Portageons. I said, What's this costing you? You know, you're buying all these officers' boots because they're not used to coming to the woods walking around, you know, and they're getting hurt walking in the woods.

SPEAKER_08 31:19

Little was working at uh Gibson Shoes at the time, and it they'd come in there with the Department of Treasury American Express card and buy 10 guys Danner boots.

SPEAKER_07 31:27

Yes, just that's hilarious. Just to drop a hat. I I was actually uh we was down there, we was off uh Cobra Creek, which is down in Marble in Maltby, and had some maiden sirens and said, well, was running out of a lead, and it was actually pretty close to a good lead there. But they said, well, we've got to go to Robinson after this, and uh, and I said, I can be there before you can. So how are you gonna do that? So I just walked right through that gap up there, walked out that ridge and drop down on the other side. I said, You're gonna drive like 45 miles around through traffic. And he said, you know, we just don't understand that. He said, you know, city guys. Yeah, he said, listen, said, you know what's impressive? He said, we'll be somewhere and come to a laurel thicket. And he said, we'll try to figure out how to get around it. But the North Carolina wildlife officers and the U.S. Forest Service officers and park rangers, they don't slow down. They either go under it or walk on top of it and keep going. I said, we don't understand how these people operate. That's funny. So uh, you know, so they look that all finally winds down again, too, because that trail goes cold and stuff like that. I get to be sheriff, and of course, when you when you first elected sheriff, people come visit you. And they they had been running more or less the Rudolph investigation out of Birmingham until it shut down last time. Then they moved out to the FBI office in Asheville. So I had two FBI guys come, introduce themselves. Congratulations on being sheriff. Oh, by the way, you know, we run it out of this, it's inactive. Anything comes up, give us a call. Okay. Okay, we'll do. So uh go forward to 2020.

The Early-Morning Jailhouse Confirmation

SPEAKER_07 33:22

Uh as we talked before uh when Anthony Anthony, right May. Yep. So when Anthony is killed, I go over and and and work with them on the critical incident team and you know, help out up until late that night, like two o'clock in the morning or something like that. I finally get back in, just lay down, not not really to sleep, because after you have a day like that, you're not not going to sleep. And uh phone rings from the jail said, hey, we've got somebody here they say's you know, Rudolph. And I said, I'll be in a minute.

SPEAKER_04 34:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 34:06

So I hang up and get ready. And and in my mind, I said, Yeah, there's a pretty good chance that's that's what it is.

SPEAKER_08 34:12

And you lived about a half a mile from here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:15

Wow.

SPEAKER_08 34:16

Right over there. So you drive to the jail.

SPEAKER_07 34:19

So I drive to the jail, I go in, and you know, Rudolph is sitting there.

SPEAKER_08 34:23

And you're thinking you said you're thinking this could be him.

SPEAKER_07 34:26

But as soon as I got the call, so I I go in, he's sitting there, and uh the only thing I had of identifying information of Rudolph is uh uh a picture of him. I had this tagged up on my bulletin board, taken when he was in, had visited his brother in New York. And uh he has a very distinctive scar on his chin. And so uh I go over and get that and I bring it back because he's not talking that much. And I, you know, I and I I I look at him, I say, you know, you're not who you say you are. And I take that picture and hold it up like this, and I say, Who are you really? He says, My name is Eric Robert Rudolph. Wow. But he had lost a lot of weight. Yeah. And so that picture, he looked a lot thinner than that. So I said, Well, here we go. And the police chief had had a a file that's a lot more information in it. So I called the FBI, my contact guy, and uh he hangs up on me to begin with. It's just like five o'clock in the morning. I said, We've got Rudolph here and he hangs up on me. Uh-uh. Thanks to the prank call, and I call him back. I say, Listen, this is the sheriff Loveham, Cherokee County. This is not a prank call. I've got Eric Robert Rudolph sitting in my jail. Wow. Are you kidding me? So you know, and then they start ringing their bells, so we're on our way and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_08 35:54

What had he was it Turtle that figured out who he was?

SPEAKER_07 35:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 35:58

Uh because he was giving the alias.

SPEAKER_07 36:00

Jeff, he was given the alias. Uh I don't want to say who that might be, because they still live here in the county. Oh, he was given a real name. He was given the real name of a real person. And that's a whole different avenue to go down. Okay. But uh uh Jeff Postdale had uh working with Tom Murphy was out patrol and went behind Shomerson at our uh save a lot and uh and did what a good officer do. I mean, he made that run, he doubled back in a short period of time. Because lost time a criminal was going to break in somewhere, they'll look and see the police come by and they'd go by and say, Well, he won't be back for a while. It gives me time to do what he'd double back and see this guy behind the store and stop him. They're having a conversation. My deputy, Sean Matthews, Turtle, hears all this, so I will go back him up. So he runs down there. Listen to what the story guy said, and he said, You know, I I think you're lying to us. You know, you look like somebody else. I might know. So they take him at jail, and he looks at looks up a picture of him on the internet, and they go back and forth, and he kind of sticks to the story until I get there and confront him. So Turtle called you. Yeah, well, when he got to jail, they had the jail call, but Turtle said, You need to call the sheriff.

SPEAKER_08 37:16

And said, I think it's just Rudolph. When he got there, he said, I think it's Rudolph.

SPEAKER_07 37:21

And then, you know, when he tells me Rudolph, I started asking him some of the information I know about the events. He said, I'm not going to talk about any of these specific events. We'll talk about Ursa, but not that. Not going there. So uh the FBI, you know, they're calling back and forth on updates as they're driving, you know, like crazy to get there. And uh so uh uh they say do you have the ability to fingerprint him on an aphist machine frame framework machine? Yeah, we can do that. He says they say we'll fingerprint him at 75 and 100 percent. And then when we'll get there, we'll fax him. And what they did, they called their fingerprint specialists somewhere up in West Virginia, West Virginia says, you know, get up and get to the office, we're gonna be faxing some fingerprints.

SPEAKER_04 38:15

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 38:16

And and we did, and and when most people look at their fingerprints, some of them look kind of common, but everybody usually has one or two or three that that look very unique just by the pattern in them. And he had about three of those. And and we had a fingerprint card, and we could take the one we took, and you could really see those and say, yeah, this is gonna be it. So they get there, they fax them, they come back within about 20 minutes. Yeah, that's that's Rudolph.

SPEAKER_04 38:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 38:47

So uh they had always had a plan that if he showed up somewhere, how they were gonna deal with him. You know, that he would be questioned by the local authorities instead of federal authorities because he said he, you know, he hated the federal law. Federal government. Federal government and federal law enforcement is very untechnical, which is true to a great extent. So, you know, we go into the planning phase at

Securing The Old Jail And Interviewing

SPEAKER_07 39:14

that point. You know, I'm in the oldest jail in the state, and I got one of the most wanted people in America, and my oldest jail in the state. That is crazy. So I I know in the back of my mind, things fixing to get crazy. So I get on the phone and I call my other local sheriffs again to come help me because I knew I was gonna need some of their tactical support.

SPEAKER_08 39:38

Like Grant, you call Graham County, Macon County, Swain County, Haywood County. Haywood County, people like that.

SPEAKER_07 39:43

Tom Tom Alexander become attached to my right arm. Yep. Uh Bob Ogle, I put in charge to run my regular patrol duties. Uh Bob DeBrule was sheriff in Graham County, ran a jail. Uh James Ash in Jackson County, uh he and Robbie Holland would charge a tactical, one one internal tactical, which was Jimmy Ash. Yeah. Jail itself and the perimeter, and uh Robbie was outside. If we had something happen, outside we had to respond to. So I pulled them in to help me. So I I just focused on Rudolph.

SPEAKER_08 40:18

So you had the sheriffs from multiple other counties come in and basically off had a task force to cover all the to help me from before the sun came up, essentially.

SPEAKER_07 40:28

Wow. And they brought some of their resources with them. But by lunch, you I mean you essentially had every news agency in in the free world who was parking trucks in front of the courthouse and running around with.

SPEAKER_08 40:40

When is the the picture that Jay Bell put up, the famous picture where you're coming out onto the steps?

SPEAKER_07 40:46

That's when we're no, that's when we were flying them out on Monday.

SPEAKER_08 40:49

So that was when you were he was leaving the area.

SPEAKER_07 40:52

Correct. And of course, by late, late that that next late that day that he shows up, you know, by that time I've been up for 36 hours, so my goodness. Anything and everything else. And uh I never forget it. Where he's at, he was in this in a room where you could see his one-way glass in that room where double is their jail medical and where we could watch him. Uh, we just we bought a mattress in there and cleaned that out and where he could be watched, physically watched by somebody or a couple people around the clock. And we actually cleared out the whole floor, first floor of the jail.

SPEAKER_04 41:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 41:33

And what, you know, troop uh Sheriff De Brule did, who was a trooper with me. We we farmed those out to other jails where you know we essentially had a few inmates upstairs of the jail, but the whole first floor we had one to deal with. Um which uh and so I'm I'm sitting there and Sheriff I said, Sheriff, you go get some rest. I I'll sit here and personally watch him. Uh, you know, he's gonna be fine. And I told him I said, Well, I'm gonna go home change. I said, I'm probably not gonna sleep. I said, the one thing I got in my mind is is is you know, one of the most high profile criminals in American history is gonna choke on hot dog in my jail. So I'm I'm responsible for him. So um we do that and it's and it's kind of you know kind of funny. And and you know, we tried to, and he was he was hungry. I mean, he was in a dumpster when he popped up, but uh tried to ask him, you know, what he felt like that he could eat, and we worked on you know his diet and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_08 42:42

You said he asked for a Bible at some point or said something about the Bible.

SPEAKER_07 42:46

Well, uh d w we actually got in a a discussion about about the Bible. I don't remember how we actually got into it. But uh, you know, when we interviewed him the uh the next day, uh he was interviewed uh by myself and uh Mark Buchanan, who was the SBI agent, who's now a sheriff in Clay County, retired from SBI and the sheriff. And we went in and uh we're talking to him, and I come in and introduce myself. I said, you know, I'm I'm Sheriff Loving. I'm a new sheriff here in Cherokee County. He said, I know who you are. And I said, Really? I said, Yeah, I know who you are. I said, uh, I've not been sheriff long. He said, I know that. I said, would you vote for me? And and he said, uh, well, I didn't think it'd be a good idea to come out and and you know go to the polls. I said, I could have got you nap until you ballot. And he he he he liked that. He laughed and and uh he looked at me, he said, uh, he said, uh, how's your politics? I said, Well, I'm Restaurant Democrat. He said, I couldn't help you. I said, Well, okay, nice to know. So we're We were going we talked about a lot of stuff. He didn't want to talk about the specifics of the bombings. But we talked uh back and forth and eventually some of them got onto the Bible and, you know, he talked about the his favorite part of the Bible was the Old Testament, you know, Numbers specifically, you know, the books of laws. And I said, I said, well, I'm more of a I'm more of a New Testament guy. You know, I like Grace. I like Grace. I like Grace and my perspective. I believe that, you know, that our our Lord Jesus came to affirm the things in the Old Testament, but it's there's a different take, you know, moving forward and forwards. We didn't agree on that at the end of the day. But we talked back and forth and and you know, eventually got around trying to get him to tell us where some of his stuff might be here, because we still knew there was a bunch of dynamite out there somewhere. Wow. They knew about how much had a bit expended in the three bombs that had used dynamite. And there's a lot more out there. He said, Well, you're never gonna find, you know, my camp, stuff like that. And I said, Well, we might, or somebody else might. He said, No, it ain't never gonna happen. I said, You didn't think we'd find you either, did you? We thought for a minute, he said, Well, I let's talk about, you know, camp where some of the stuff's hidden. I guess somebody hurt. He said, Are you familiar with Fires Creek? I said, Yeah, I'm very familiar with it. I said, You familiar with Rock Cal Springs? I said, I know that ours was a young man, nowhere sad. He said, Well, when you cross the second creek, I said, Yeah, you know, before you get to switch back, you go up that cove and right the top, go out that ridgeline. I had a campfire for a while. Wow. So we wrote it down, chewed up to the Forest Service and to the wildlife people. That's where they find what they refer to as a winter camp. Yeah. Right. And they was a they was a gun there. He had some uh had some corn and and I meant some other grains buried there and and some stuff. I mean, he he was raised marijuana, so he had stuff associated with with that too. I think they actually tied back the grain to the to the grain bins over there.

SPEAKER_08 46:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 46:21

And he was he was actually associated with some people who lived right below that. So there's probably some degree of connection and truth there.

SPEAKER_04 46:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_08 46:32

And then the summer camp or where he had when he was dumpster diving at night, he was staying close by there, right?

SPEAKER_07 46:38

Oh yeah, it's it's uh right off the four lane, right up uh actually beside the river. And it's and it's a smart place to be because it's on property owned by the Cherokee County Board of Education.

SPEAKER_04 46:51

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_07 46:52

So there's no hunting on it, and no reason for anybody to be on it. Uh so and and and again, uh, you know, it's it's walking distance. But uh, you know, there was a lot of this a lot of discussion, and you know I expressed to the to the federal authorities to be that, you know, I don't think he's been camping out for five years. And they said, well, what makes you say that? I said, well, the day he arrived in in my jail, uh, well, he would he had like a stubble and shaven maybe a day or two. But I mean he didn't smell like he'd been. I said, I can go camping or hunting. You can tell somebody's been living out in the woods or you know, not bathing a period of time. His hair is relatively trimmed. Wow. So I've never heard that.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

That's so you think he had like connections with people?

SPEAKER_07 47:48

Yeah, well, he wasn't the only per person in our world that that held to those philosophies. And you know, and the and the federal people said, Well, why now? I said, It's been five years. How much has your life changed in five years? People pass away, they move, their beliefs change, and eventually he he probably ran out of people. And and even he said that that many times he's out in public and people just didn't recognize him. Oh wow. He he even conveyed one time he was walking along the road and got a ride from a deputy from point A to point B.

SPEAKER_04 48:26

No way.

SPEAKER_07 48:28

And and you know, did he look like Redoff when it finally said, Yeah, but he had lost so much weight and and stuff like that, that if if you wouldn't like really looking for him, or and that's the way things happened. So I think his circumstances had had just changed that much. And we were we were actually he appeared on America's Most Wanted twice, and he had just appeared on America's Home Wanted a month or two before this, and we were actually running out a lead that ATF had got on him from that America's Most Wanted, when he he happened to show up of his association with with local people, where he he had went to a funeral of a friend of his that he had before we went on a run. The head showed up at that funeral, so we were out running those people down and and then he pops up.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

Wow. That is crazy. That is wild. What in that picture when you're walking a mile? Yeah, what were you saying to him? Because it looks like you're talking to him.

The Perp Walk And Media Pressure

SPEAKER_03 49:31

Do you remember?

SPEAKER_07 49:32

Well, we go out and and you know the they refer to it police circles as a the perp walk when you you see them when they bring some high proper person. We hadn't we had uh a plan to move him from my jail to the airport to put him on a Black Hawk helicopter from National Guard to fly to Asheville from Asheville to Birmingham to be uh arraigned on the the Chargers and the police officer who was killed in Birmingham. That they got the first bite of the apple, and we had two bulletproof vests on him. And uh myself and Chief Digpin uh ATF, buddy, was over the ATF contingent and FBI agent. We all walk him out and we're starting to walk on the steps, and and if you walk on the back of old gentleman's steps, it was just a sea of TV cameras, reporters. I mean, maybe a hundred of them out there, and he's very defiant because it's true he don't like federal people, federal stars, but he hates the press and he hates attorneys. So don't trust him or don't like them at all. So uh he's walking out and you see him, he's very defiant and raised that chin up, and he's he's got a belly chain on, two, two bulletproof vests, and shackles on his leg. He's not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_04 51:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:02

And he's he's kind of doing that right there. And and I I lean over and I say, You need to watch your feet because you're fixing to fall down in you know in front of the free world who look pretty silly. Then he looks down real quick to watch his feet walking on the step.

SPEAKER_04 51:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 51:17

Then we uh load him up and take him to airport and they fly him out.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Right here on airport road? Is that where he flew out?

SPEAKER_07 51:26

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

Wow. Crazy.

SPEAKER_07 51:29

Black coffee flying to Asheville or Atlanta Airport, put him on a private plane, fly him straight to Birmingham. And and then we don't hear anything for a

Cutting A Deal To Find Explosives

SPEAKER_07 51:40

while. Then I get a call from my FBI buddies, hey, we're coming back. You know, because he's getting ready to go to trial, and his turn's cut a deal to take death penalty off the table if he tells them where he has the explosive hit.

SPEAKER_04 51:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:57

And uh so we're coming back to the church sedosa. So they get a contingent of FBI people, a lot of ATF people because they're dealing with explosives, and U.S. Forest Service people and park people because you know, that's U.S. Forest Service and in our federal law enforcement, U.S. Forest Service officers has a very small number of 30 or 40 U.S. Forest Service officers who actually carry guns in law enforcement capacity. And uh one of them's a good friend of mine, and then the Park Service, um, those two components in the wildlife are the best at tracking and and seeing stuff in the woods. So they bring them in and they go walk in the woods if you get a general direction. You know, the first explosive he tells us where it is, is is a bomb that's right across from the National Guard Armory.

SPEAKER_04 52:50

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_07 52:51

It's already a symbol, just not hooked up. It's in a five-gallon bucket, and he he buried it up on the hill.

SPEAKER_04 52:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 52:59

If you ask him, he says that when the FBI had her command post set up at the there, he was the intention was to set that bomb off for their fellow officers, but changed his mind because uh uh he had compassion on their families. Now personally I believe that he just didn't want to dig a hole in that rocky ground beside the foreline because that solid rock was filled in down through there. But that's that's my own thing. But he told us, you know, I cut a hole because there's a fence along, a woven wire fence all along the foreline. You see it going down the foreline. Uh he cut a hole in and walked through there and told us where he was sitting watching them.

SPEAKER_04 53:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 53:45

Well, they would come to work and leave work and come and go. So at least he was mobile enough to do stuff like that. So we go there, and sure enough, it's it's a five-gallon bucket and it's got a bunch of diamonds, got water in it, too, because it's been sitting there for years. Y'all just cooked it off right there, didn't you?

SPEAKER_06 54:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 54:02

And they called me back and said, Hey, you know who you know who owns that land there on off the right of way? I said, Yeah, I do. It says Charles West. He said, Well, you think that maybe you can see if it'd be okay for us? I said, Ain't no problem. I I go see Charles because Charles don't answer his phone. He's got a cell phone. It's one of the quirky things he won't ever answer his cell phone. So I go, Tim, what we're gonna do is yeah, make it happen. So if they feel like it's so unstable.

SPEAKER_08 54:32

They need to cook it off there.

SPEAKER_07 54:33

Because dynamite's that way. If you let it sit for a long time, the longer it sits, the more unstable it becomes. So if they move it over and uh ATF sets that thing off, and it's a big bang.

SPEAKER_04 54:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 54:46

And uh they have a picture took with about eight or ten of their guys standing in the hole that it made. Wow. So uh, and then we we end up going heat uh down to Copper Creek, which is way down in Unaiche and Beaverdam area of uh Cherokee County, and he has his tools buried in one place, and the majority of the explosives buried in another place. Yeah, but probably when he he stole those explosives, you can come back in that way if you come over from a Tennessee side and come through Sweetwater and go down and go up by Apalechia Lake, and you come in the backside down that way. That's probably the reason he ended up there because it was on it was on Farser's property where it had stuff hidden, and then he could work there. Or even if he needed to experiment it, it'd be less likely to draw a lot of suspicion there.

SPEAKER_08 55:35

So it wouldn't have That's where I wonder. So he had probably stashed all that before the 98 bombing.

SPEAKER_07 55:44

I I I don't remember the exact date that he wondered sold a dynamite.

SPEAKER_08 55:48

So you think he was moving around after after he went on the run? Do you think he was moving up into that area?

SPEAKER_07 55:56

Well, the the uh all the bombs up to Birmingham you know, Burm Hanson went on the run, so those other bombs he wasn't on the run.

SPEAKER_08 56:04

Yeah, so that's when he had put that stuff up through there.

SPEAKER_07 56:07

I I I I think he buried explosives pretty much on his way back from stealing it. Okay.

SPEAKER_08 56:12

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 56:13

Because you you know, you won't don't want to take a few hundred sticks of dynamite home. And at that time he was probably living around the neighborhood and people where people might see it or ask questions or stuff like that, or even smell it. Yeah. Because you can smell dynamite.

SPEAKER_08 56:26

Yeah, so he's stashing it for a rainy day.

SPEAKER_07 56:29

And and what the ATF people would do when they found the explosives, they would photograph it and you know, that stuff's got batch numbers on it to do that so they could match it back to what was stolen. Yeah, this is what was taken. Yeah, he did that. Explosive. But when you see these bomb experts really nervous, you get far away. I don't need to be here. You're far away. He done road a couple of times. Wow. Oh, that's wild. They actually, you know, d did all.

SPEAKER_08 57:02

He didn't have a weapon on him when he was arrested or when he was taken in. Had a flashlight on him. Had a flashlight. And up there on the at his little summer camp there on the Board of Education Lane across the four lane from where he was caught, did he have weapons there?

SPEAKER_07 57:17

Nope.

SPEAKER_08 57:18

So the only weapon, the only firearm found was up at the winter camp. Above Rockhouse.

SPEAKER_07 57:23

Initially, yeah. You could tell he that, you know, uh, this might hurt the business that save a lot or super saver, whatever it is, but he'd been d been in other dumpsters too. And and you know, uh again, you uh uh uh he had some Taco Bell stuff there. Taco Bell was just right there right there. So uh yeah, you know, and a lot of these places throw out a lot of food. It's dumpster diving. Dumpster dumpster. Good, good, what, good way to get food. Mo Holloway can live by that. I know.

SPEAKER_03 57:55

Taco Bell dumpster. That is wild.

SPEAKER_08 58:00

Man, so cool. Think of anything else?

SPEAKER_03 58:03

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_08 58:03

What do you think? It's fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 58:05

It's very cool. It's very crazy that it happened right around here. Like, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_08 58:11

I mean, the only man hunt I can think of, the only one I can think of that was this this scale of the last hundred years would have been the guy that jumped out of the airplane and was never found.

SPEAKER_07 58:23

Yeah, D.B. Cooper.

SPEAKER_08 58:24

DB Cooper. Um, but other than that, uh, what can you uh I guess Ted Kaczynski, the unibomber. I mean, that's it. No, because they caught what's the name, Oklahoma City, Timothy McVeigh, they caught him quick, right?

SPEAKER_07 58:37

Yeah. And again, you know, many times it's as circumstances and in a community stuff like that that that triggered these things.

How Rudolph Survived For Years

SPEAKER_07 58:48

You know, we we actually, when Rudolph was there, uh oh gosh, I forget the deputy's name, Macon County. He lived in Anahale, come in him, Rudolph. Yeah, uh, but it he they started talking. Yeah. He he walked by the door and he was like, What you doing in here? Because he knew him. Yeah, he he he and he he laughed. He says, I still remember you stole the blueberries out of my garden. I know I didn't, and then that's joked back and forth and carried on.

SPEAKER_03 59:15

That is so bizarre.

SPEAKER_08 59:17

That's wild.

SPEAKER_03 59:18

So is he still alive? Is Eric Grudol still alive?

SPEAKER_07 59:21

Florence, Colorado, Supermax.

SPEAKER_03 59:23

Okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_08 59:25

It's the same prison that the unibomber was in, right? Correct.

SPEAKER_07 59:28

That that that's most secure prison in America. What's his day look like? 23 and half hours of looking at the walls.

SPEAKER_04 59:36

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_08 59:37

Half hour day he gets to go out and see the sky. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:42

That is bizarre.

SPEAKER_07 59:43

I'm I'm I'm really surprised. And at some point I'm sure he'll I feel like he'll tell more of his story because I I think there's that that much vanity in him that he'll want to get it out. Just just not attention. Just not now.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:00

Yeah. How old would he be around?

SPEAKER_07 1:00:04

You know, I really don't know.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:05

He's probably 60 now, late 50s. Uh might be more than a few.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:14

He's between us. He he was he was an interesting person to talk to. 59. Close. Uh and if you would meet him out here, uh unless you get into a deep conversation about government and his philosophy on, you know, he had a bad experience with his father and having cancer and something about an experimental drug. Uh and it his mother was a little bit out there, a little bit. Had a brother that was really out there. Cut his hand off.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:48

I remember filmed himself cutting his hand off. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:51

Uh but had a had another sister that was uh uh very reasonable, had another brother living in New York. Wow uh who they were not close. So uh yeah, but if you just talk to him out like we're talking, if you didn't get in, if you didn't go down those pathways, you know, that's not a bad guy. And uh I'm I mean uh makes you wonder you know how people's philosophy gets formed or guided in ways, especially in this day and time.

SWO Fall Retreat Announcement

SPEAKER_07 1:01:31

So many things change.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:33

I want to take a minute and talk to y'all about the SWO 26 fall retreat schedule. This summer we are studying through different moments in scripture where we see Christ interacting with people. The theme and focus is God with us. In the fall, we're gonna follow that up with a teaching series uh where we're gonna look at uh I think it's I think we're calling it at the feet of Jesus, but specifically we're gonna look at these moments and interactions where people find themselves literally at the feet of Jesus. Think about stories in the gospels and during the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, where people find themselves in that situation. There's a lot to be learned from these different interactions, and I'm really excited about that teaching content. Uh Far Retreat will be here before you know it, and we run multiple weekends of that. Great opportunity for you to get to SWO, especially if you don't make it in the summer, or you're a new church or you're a new person wanting to see what we're about. It's a great way to get sort of exposed to the ministry of snowboard wilderness outfitters in sort of a retreat setting. So check that out. We'll link it in the description. And um, we'd love to see you at Fall Retreat 2026.

Press Conferences And Leading Agencies

SPEAKER_07 1:02:52

Is there anything else you can think that No, not unless there's some I mean you come up with some some good ideas and stories and but uh you know that that's got I guess another interesting, and this is a funny side note, and I I like to tell this. And if my daughter ever finds about this podcast, I'm gonna be cooked again. We won't tell her. Uh gears, Jess. But uh, you know, the one thing I asked from the federal government when all this started was I want a public information officer. Say, get me a public information officer because we we got all this news media. I don't want to deal with them. It's not my place to deal with.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:31

And but on, I believe it's I want to say it's like on the second day. They decide to have a news conference. So going out to Depot in Murphy, and we go in and and there's just again, you know, you see his press conference, where it's just a you can't there's no room for another microphone up there. And we're up there talking, they give him up here talking. And I'm they get him talking? Get me talking. Oh, okay, okay. Well, actually, it's me and the FBI talks a little bit. And uh I get up there and you know, somebody asked me a question. I wish I remembered which news agency. Well, what did he have on? And I said, Well, he had on running shoes and and uh like a blue t-shirt and a pair of blue work breeches. Wow. And uh and he said, Well, what do you think the significance of it was for the running shoes? I said, It's been on a run for five years. So I guess they wanted to be comfortable. Yeah, and so we get done to ask more questions and talking, and I'm leaving. Of course, you're trying to leave, they mobbing you and you're trying to work your way back to the car to leave. My phone rings, it's my daughter. Okay. And of course, she finds out. I don't know how she finds out about this because she's in bed asleep when I they call me back in. And I answered her phone. I said, Down this, and she says, Daddy, Bridges, you sound like a hick. I said, Well, sweetheart it was britches. It's where it's work bridges. Yeah, it's just word britches.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:00

And I am a hick.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:03

Had it been go Sunday go to a meeting, it would have been pants. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it wasn't. It was britches. Yeah. That's funny. So, you know, we we wanna and Brent letter told me, my six, and he's in college, and sitting there and watching three or four people, and a couple of them's English majors, and they get a life out of it. Oh, I bet. Yeah. But you know, I I just that's who I am. Yeah. I I mean, I I was told when I went to instructor school with Highway Pro by the person who was my evaluator, said, You have a very distinctive dialect. And I said, Yeah, I guess I do. I guess I'm pretty much into that Appalachian dialect.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:42

That's it. Serve me well. Yeah. You have lived a colorful life, Sheriff Lovin.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:48

Well, I guess I guess that would have been my 15 seconds of fame that everybody has in their life.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:53

Yeah. Yeah, because all the rest of those stories were equally impactful, but in the Kind of in the shadows, you know. But that one was everybody was watching.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:04

I think we m I think I told JB and we did this episode last year. I mean, I got interviewed by Atlanta Journal Constitution, a guy from CBS.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:14

Everybody's if you lived here in the valley, you're out and about, there's a good chance you were gonna get Yeah, but but keep in mind a lot of the news conference they had was like at noon and and most people were working. Working. So some of the people weren't the cream of the crop that they weren't Andrew's finest. Yeah, so yeah. Some of those people had somewhat of a colorful background of their own.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:35

So I had, believe it or not, I had a little bit of hair back then, and right downtown, uh there was a barber shop, you know, right on Main Street. Not not uh not Jack Mince's, but there was another one kind of across from the police uh little police station. And I was in there getting my hair cut and I just wore like an army military high and tight in the winter, and then I'd shave it in the summer. And I was in there in the barber chair, and the I forget the New York Post guy said, Hey, can I interview you? I'm sitting there in the barber chair. Sure. Somewhere's a picture of me floating around a New York Post archives. Yeah, and but I turned it on, man. I I hammed it up. I, you know, I I had fun with it. Because they those people thought we were, they thought we were all just dumb backwards hicks. I mean, uh, you know, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna have some fun with this.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:24

Yeah, yeah. And that, you know, that I that's kind of way, and I actually like uh I I kind of got jumped on by the Attorney General that morning. It was upset because, you know, the president had to find this out by sending it on CNN. And you know, I I listened to him ramble on for a little bit, and I said, excuse me just one second. I said, I'm just a dumb old country sheriff. I said, but first of all, I don't have President Bush's phone. I can't call the president. So I couldn't call and wake him up. I said, second of all, most of these expert witnesses uh that we're talking on CNN about this are retired federal officers. I said, actually FBI officers. I said, so I think you can connect those dots on your own.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:18

I said, I've been too busy to call anybody. I've not called my wife. So that's funny. I'm not gonna take responsibility for it. That's awesome. Okay. But I I mean, I'm I met some uh really neat people. I I mean, you see these people that turn over, you know, one of the people that was always involved in the FPS side this was uh kids' first name Sersey, who was the the head agent of the F of the Unibomber. So he was good to work with. Uh uh ATF people that we worked with, and ATF's different. They were they were very good. Uh CJ uh Hyman was the ATF guy. He had actually uh he'd been here initially with ATF and in that gap in between got promoted, went all the way up to number two with ATF, and then busted back to come down to be back in South Carolina with his family and and uh his wife had a ministry with horses with uh mentally challenged kids and stuff like that. Super, super good guy. I mean, because when when we were interviewed, we interviewed Rudolph the first time, we followed a federal plan. This is a federal plan. Well, before we went back and talked to him the next day, that SB agent that went in with me, his mother had got very sick, very sick, and he had left. And the head head SBI guy said, Well, I'm going in there with you. And I said, No, okay, that's not your plan. We're following your off federal game plan, so we're not going to change this point. We went back and forth a little bit, and then the U.S. attorney said, Well, we'll go in with you and stuff like that. And finally I said, I need a minute. And I looked at CJ and I said, Let's take a walk. So we walked down Main Street to Murphy. We came out, took a ride, went down Main Street towards the lower end of town. We're walking along talking. It's like the Pied Piper. We're walking along talking, and there's probably two dozen reporters falling behind us about 20 feet. Wow. So we walked down through there, and I told him, I said, you know, CJ, I I've seen this before. And uh, you know, I've seen it get messed up before. I just don't want that to happen on my watch. If I can't, we walk for a way. He said, Well, I'm gonna back you, whatever you decide you want to do. And we walked down, we hit crossed over and headed back up the other side of the street. Finally, we got to courthouse. He stopped, he said, wait a minute, let me put it this way. He said, This is Murphy, right? He said, Yeah. I said, That's your courthouse, your jail behind it. Cherokee County, you're a sheriff, right? I said, Yeah. And uh he said, Well, you're in charge. You can you say the way it is, and that's where it's gonna be. So I said, Okay. He said, I got you back. That's cool. So I walked back in and I said, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna stay with your plan. And if that's not accepted you, then you need to load him up and get him out of my jail. Okay, we'll stick with the plan, Sheriff. Wow. And and then later later on, uh first not much later on, I have this another side story. And uh have an incident where I get information back, I got people housing their jail because my jail's capacity wouldn't hold all the people that we were putting in there initially. And it came to our attention that there was some immune talking about a plan to harm my daughter. So, you know, we start working on this stuff like that. And it turns out that two of the guys that were involved in this, and then there's Stan and Murphy just out house showed behind McDonald uh behind fatbacks out there a little bit. And uh, they're on electronic house arrest in the federal government. So I called CJ and I said, Tell him what's going on. I said, I need to know where they're at. Can you look at your monitor and tell me that they're in that house or we're gonna do a search warrant? And he said, I sure can. Said, give me this minute. He calls me back. He said, How long before you said they're in that house? Said, how long before you're ready to go? I said, about three hours. He said, I'm gonna send you a little help. So in about two hours, at that time there were three ATF agents assigned to Ashville. All three of them come walking to the door.

SPEAKER_08 1:12:36

They hit the road right then.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:37

He said, you know, CJ called us. We told us what's going on, we're here to help. And they went right with us, and you know, we hashed it all out. And and the next day, see CJ lives in Columbus, South Carolina. Next morning at 8:30, CJ Hyman walks through my door. Wow. He says, I'm here to check on you, and here to check on your daughter. And we sat and talked for a while. Top guy on the ATF. Top top notch guy. Common sense just wow. Need more people like that. Yeah. In every profession. But that's just another little side note.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:16

Well, I never did take you up on a job offer, but I'd have been proud to work for you and I'm thankful to know you.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:22

Man, I tried my butt, it still worked out because we got to train with you and have a lot of fun and support each other. But uh man, I could I could have used you. I I saw a gym where I just couldn't make it happen. But but you know, I I went through some people, but uh, I mean I I got good people that that really they're back there now. I had good people working for me then that were impactful. And I I think I think anyone working in communes, that's what they should strive for to have a a real positive impact on where you live at.

unknown 1:13:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:55

And I think our new sheriff's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:58

Yeah, like I said, I've I've never got out and worked for him, but I work I know him. Uh I I know his intelligence level, know where his mindset is. He's approachable. Yeah. He's able to make those those decisions like you you need to make them. I've got a meeting with him tomorrow. I'm looking forward to it. Cool.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:17

Yeah. I appreciate you supporting us in that also. So got one of our young men that it looks like's gonna go to work for him. He's finished up his internship here.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:26

And that that'd be that'd be a great place to start now. I went down the week before last. And so I I've not actually been since I left there. I went back one time when Dustin went in. He called me and said, I got some pictures of stuff here I think might be yours. And I went back and looked. They weren't mine, they were in display and stuff like that. That's the only time I've been back. So I I'm gonna go back and look and get some idea.

Building A Jail With Human Dignity

SPEAKER_07 1:14:51

I told him I'd help me the way I could. And I knew they were You literally built that jail. Yeah. I was there, which was an amazing thing to watch them build.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:02

I remember uh you gave me a tour when it was about 80% finished, and that was just like this is crazy. Like you said, coming from the oldest jail in the state.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:14

To the newest one.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:16

To the most at that time state of the art.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:17

Well, and you know, the way we build it was kind of unique. You know, we we changed up the rules on billet where we actually hired our contractor beforehand and work with the architect. So when the architect would draw these pictures, the uh our construction person will say, uh no, that ain't gonna work, and here's the reason why. And they were able to work hands in hand, which gave us a better product, a less expensive price on the back end. But we went in and had to plan for stuff. And it was it was fun to watch it go up. But I wanted I know that that had lapses and stuff, and I felt like it's because they just didn't understand the original concept. There's two ways to run a detention facility. One is direct supervision, and one's indirect supervision. Direct's when the guards in there with the people, essentially. The indirect's when you're you run it and that jail's design where one person can be one in two control points, either in and and maximum or in a tower, and can unlock every door in the place and and move everybody. It's just like, you know, get on the intercom, say, okay, such such, you go to the door, go through. Now he's got to wait there to you make sure that the door's closed behind him before you open the next door. And he's by himself. So you can walk him through the jail with one person can run.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:40

Yeah, that is crazy.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:41

So, you know, we we talked about that. I mean, that they've had some issues over the years, and you know, we talked about and I I was there, you know, uh I was in that jail both places just about every day, at least once a day. Because one, it's the highest liability spot in the office, and two, those people need as much attention as the people out the community. That's the reason they're being detained because they have issues. So I, you know, in the booking area, I set up what I call the front porch. I went to Lowe's and got me a big piece of astral turf and put it down like the green grass. And I go in there and sit down usually with the the jail administrator, the chief jailer, and I sat down and the grievance forms they'd fill out, I go in and call them out one time and talk to them. What's your issue? They talked to me, and I said, Well, we can't do that, but can we do this? And you know, it's not a bad idea. I think we can check into that.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:42

Access to the sheriff, that's that's what they all want anyway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:47

And then at some point, things say, well, nobody's listening to me. No, you you you filled out a form and I came and talked to you. You know, and again, my philosophy was to try to give them some control of their life when a lot of it's been taken away, but also some of their dignity as being a person. That's the reason I had the inmate work program to get them out. You know, many of them, maybe never, but a long time in their life, had never worked at something and saw any return on it. So that they were able to go out there and work on a garden or cut the cemetery grass or you know, do a community work project for a church or something like that. And they could say, Well, I did this and this is what I got back from it. And when you break down humanity, that's very important. It's very important in your spiritual life. You know, I'm investing, I'm doing my part. Here's what I'm getting back from it from whatever angle.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:47

So yeah.

unknown 1:18:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:49

That's really cool.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:52

Well, thank you. I appreciate you. Man, you know I love you. Love you too, and thankful to know you and call you a friend. And I'm excited for you to read the book. And uh, you're gonna drag that thing out and sign him for us here.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:05

That's the deal.

Final Thanks And Listener Support

SPEAKER_02 1:19:07

Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at swoutfitters.com to see all of our programming and resources. And we'll see you next week on No Sanity Required.