A Follow-Up Conversation on End Times | Tailgate Theology

This episode is a follow-up to Monday’s conversation, where JB and Brody simplify end times views and clear up confusing language. We briefly walk through the main perspectives, explain where they differ, and focus on what matters most.

No hype or fear just a clear and hopeful look at what Christians agree on: Jesus is coming back, and God will make all things new.

Revelation 19 & 20

Eschatology Charts

Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem

An Evening of Eschatology

What Does the Bible Actually Say About End Times | Tailgate Theology 

Why I Left the Catholic Faith

Rudolf, Beethoven, and The Chainsaw Man

Please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help improve No Sanity Required and help others grow in their faith.
 
Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.

Transcript

Why This Bonus Clarification

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Okay, everyone, welcome back. This is a bonus episode for you guys. It'll be pretty similar to this week's episode that we posted on Monday, but we just wanted to sit down and give some more clarification. Um, after listening back, Bertie and I decided we just wanted to give more clarification because we said spewed out a bunch of words and kind of went all over the place. I was all over the place. So we're just gonna backtrack a little bit, kind of lay out all of these post-mill, pre-mill, omill, and more, I guess, like simpler terms or layman's terms. Um, and then we're gonna just talk through some charts that are super helpful, like visuals, and we'll link those down below. Um, and just kind of like take a step back. Um yeah, we were torn because we were like, I don't we both weren't super confident in last week's episode. And then Bertie just got a text that was like, hey man, that episode was so helpful for me, like loved it. So we're just gonna do kind of the best of both worlds and just post this episode as a tie-in to this week's episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

But yeah, the the thing that we were talking about right before we started recording here is I feel like uh somebody that understands already sort of this vernacular and has lived in this, has studied this, they were able to follow, but a person in that mindset probably would have been very critical of the way I was even explaining things. But then a person that this is all new terminology, I don't think I would have helped them understand anything. So it was funny. I I mowed yesterday and I listened, I I listen every week. I always enjoy what JB has to say. I'm usually very self-critical, and I think if you've ever listened to yourself, you you understand that. I force myself to listen to the episodes each week because it I'm I'm my I'm my probably worst critic. And so sitting on the mower, I was like, I don't think this is making sense. And then last night I was I was restless. I woke up a couple times. The Lord has always spoken to me during the night. I'm sure a lot of people are like that. But if my sleep gets disrupted and when I wake up, it's the thing that's on my mind. And that happened two or three times last night. And then this morning when the alarm before the alarm went off, like a little before five this morning, I was awake thinking about it. So anyway, what we want to do, yeah, just give we want to simplify, make this concise. This should be a shorter episode to hopefully clear some things up.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Yeah. Sweet. Well, welcome to this week's episode.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.

The Dispensational Rapture Timeline

SPEAKER_01 2:49

So let's start with, let's go back. The first thing you did is you talked about growing up and going to that tribulation trail.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

And what drives that is the first view we'll discuss, which is, and I'm not worried about terminology here, but but JB is going to link some of these charts that will help you maybe get a visual in the classic way that not the classic, in the traditional way you and I were raised, and we're a generation apart. I mean, um, but for the last hundred plus years, the way people have been taught is predominantly what's called a dispensational view, which teaches here's the simple timeline. We are living in what's called the church age, which is a dispensation or an age, a period of time. At the end of this period, there's gonna be a secret rapture where Jesus comes and secretly takes away his church. And you talked about movies and pictures and books where the bus is running off the road and there's empty piles of clothes laying everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

It's like in the snap of a finger, all the believers, all the Christians will ascend and leave this earth essentially.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Followed by seven years of tribulation, which is where I kind of talked about in that trail of tribulation thing that I did when I was in middle school, it's like where would you say Satan rules the earth or has more authority over the earth? Like, how would you word that?

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Yeah, he's not bound yet. So it's not the millennium.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

Yes. Like in this trail of tribulation, it was like people couldn't get groceries if they didn't have the mark of the beast, and like uh Christians were being heavily persecuted. Um, or not even Christians, just people who wouldn't get the mark of the beast. We wouldn't get the mark. Yeah, and like I guess bow or submit to Satan, Satan's rule.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah, and the the people that wouldn't do that in the in the dispensational view, after this secret rapture, people that are left behind, some of them realize, oh no.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

And they go and they have this conversion experience where they say, I want to be a Christian. And it's during that period of time that the dispensational view teaches there will be a massive return to uh acceptance of the gospel by the Jewish people.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

And so that's where you get the 144,000 number out of the book of Revelation. So during the seven years of tribulation, there's this move of the gospel within the Jewish nation, the Jewish people, ethnic Jews, and the nation of Israel, and people like you and me that maybe were raised in church but never made an actual sincere profession of faith. There's a lot of emphasis placed on we there were people that thought they were saved, but they weren't. They're left behind. Then those people and a lot of these Jews become sort of the voice and presence of a gospel movement during this time of tribulation, and then there's a great persecution against them. And at the end of that, the end of that tribulation is marked by hail storms, fire falling from the sky, like terrible pestilence throughout the land. The four horsemen that are talked about in the book of Revelation are just kind of rampaging around the earth, and it's it's just sheer chaos. And at the end of that seven years, Jesus returns, destroys it all, and ushers in his millennial kingdom. During that time, Satan is bound, and there's a literal one thousand-year reign of Christ.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

During that reign, this is the part that I have a hard time swallowing more than anything. During that reign, people have to get saved. And so some people turn against the Lord during that thousand-year reign. And at the end of that thousand-year reign, Satan is released, and there's one final war where everyone who's chosen to follow him sides with him, and Jesus deals with that and ushers in his eternal kingdom.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

That's dispensational premillennialism.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

I think for that one, I have like slightly almost a bad taste in my mouth because not always, but in my experience, it's kind of tied to like fear, like especially the seven years of tribulation, like that whole trail of tears. It's a little bit um what is that called? Like when you basically try to get people to like doubt or like manipulative. Yeah, like not yeah, I guess. Like just really after that trail of tribulation, I was like, oh my gosh, like, am I saved?

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Like, am I gonna be oh, like it's so in doubt. Yeah, it's it's the whole thing is to get you to doubt.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Exactly. Or get you to just fear, like, oh, I don't want to be, you know, in these seven years of tribulation. Like, I want to be up in heaven, which is true. Like, I still want to, but it's crazy, a little bit fear-mongering, I think. Fear mongering, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Yeah, it's crazy because one thing that I would point out here before we go to the other views, because they're a lot more uplifting, is that this should excite us.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

And that view invokes a lot of fear.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

I think that that kind of is what it's marked by.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

Yeah, which not always, but that's just been my, and it sounds like a little bit your experience with it. Um I think that kind of left a sour taste in my mouth a little bit. And also now looking at all these views, it's clear, okay, I don't agree with this view fully, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Yeah. Well, I would I would just sum or wrap that up by saying it's okay to not hold to this view. You can be faithful to the scripture and to the Lord and not hold to this view. And I say that because a lot there are a lot of churches that would teach that if you don't hold to this view, um, it's it's false doctrine or false teaching to hold to a different view. Two really quick stories. One, um one of the guys in leadership here, one of my executive partners, Matt Jones, who we call mugs, he left a church uh that he had been serving at in leadership. He was a deacon at this church. This was 20 years ago. He left that church. One of the key pieces to that was the pastor was pretty dogmatic about this view of eschatology, and it was enough to that he was removed, like he was pushed out as a deacon. I think that's wrong.

SPEAKER_03 9:23

Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

The the other thing, I remember having a I didn't know there was another view. And I remember a guy asking me, we had just started Snowbird. I mean, this was within the first couple years of Snowbird, and a local pastor of a small primitive Baptist church, which you can go look up what a primitive Baptist uh church is, but Primitive Baptist Church said to me, he was asking me about Snowbird and what we're doing, and he said, I got a question for you. And I said, Yes, sir. And he said, Are you pre? And I said, Am I what? And he said, Are you pre? And he was saying, Are you pre-tribulational, pre-millennial? And and I remember going, uh, do you mean like pre-tribulational? And he said, Yeah. And I said, Yes, sir, of course. Because I didn't know anything else. And uh I just want people to know it's okay to not hold to that. And I actually think it's wise to not hold to that. I think I think that's the weakest view of all these views. But at the same time, if you hold to that view, a lot of the churches that come to Snowbird this this year, they that's what they would teach. Yeah, and it's okay. Yeah, as long as we trust the that Jesus is gonna return and establish his eternal kingdom and judge the living and the dead.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

Yeah. And that can be said for all of these. Like just because you hold fast to one of these doesn't mean that's false or a sin. Like we kind of talked about last episode. It literally says no one knows. Like it's very there's a lot of room left up for interpretation. That's right. And so none of these is right or wrong. Like, even the things that we believe or we hold fast to, there's still things that I'm like, I don't know. I don't know the answer. Like, I couldn't tell you if you held a gun to my head because there's so much stuff that's left up for interpretation.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Yeah.

Historic Premillennialism Explained

SPEAKER_03 11:06

So that's yeah, that's to be said for all of these.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Second view will be still a premillennial view. And again, to make sure people know the terminology, millennial has to do with the 1,000-year reign of Christ that's described in Revelation 20. So the view we just talked about says that that will be a literal 1,000-year reign that will occur after the coming of Jesus, but it'll really be this the third coming of Jesus. You'll have secret rapture, seven years of tribulation, the return of Christ, and then the millennial kingdom.

SPEAKER_04 11:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Okay. The next view would be called premillennial, but it's historic premillennial. It doesn't hold to a pre-tribulational return of Christ. Yes. This is historic premillennialism, which teaches that the tribulation that the church will go through will occur during history that we're living in right now. And then Christ will return.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Yeah. So there's not that secret rapture than the seven years of tribulation. That tribulation occurs, it could occur now. It could be occurring technically right now.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Yeah, and I uh probably the pre-millennial voice people are most familiar with that have studied this would be Jim Hamilton.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

He represents that view in that Eschatology of Eschatology video, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah, and he wrote the um the preaching the word commentary series. He wrote the Revelation commentary.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

He's a pastor of a church, I think it's called Kentwood. He's he's uh a pastor in Kentucky and a professor at Southern. Um and that that is the view that he would teach, and what he will explain is we actually can see these tribulational periods throughout the church age. So you think about different times of per great persecution in the Roman Empire, or times of like he points out something that's really interesting uh that I that I never thought of, but that makes a lot of sense. He said uh during the time of Roman rule, when Jesus came into the world and and his whole earthly ministry was was ongoing during Roman rule, that one of the reasons that that early Christians were persecuted is because the Jews had revolted against the Romans so many times over the worship of Caesar. So if you were in the Roman Empire, you had to pay tribute to Caesar and worship him as basically as God. And you were still allowed to worship other gods.

SPEAKER_03 13:51

But you also had to worship him.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

But you had to worship him, yeah. And this is where uh the the phrase Caesar is Lord had to be like part of your proclamation. And so the Jews, the the Jews under Roman rule had rebelled so many times and there had been so many uprisings. Finally, the Romans had said, okay, the Jews don't have to do that, they don't have to declare Caesar as Lord. Wow, they don't have to, the Jews get an exemption, nobody else gets an exemption, but the Jews get an exemption.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Okay, this is fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

I didn't know this.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

But when Christianity started to gain traction, the Jews tried to pit the Romans against the Christians because they would say, and this is how this is part of how they crucified Jesus, they would say, Christians declare that Jesus is Lord. And they they would turn, they were trying to ebb and turn Roman persecution against Christianity while they maintained their autonomy to worship one God.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

And his name being Yahweh.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

And so when Jesus, like you think about the accusations against Jesus at his trial, the Jewish leaders say he's declaring himself to be in the place of Caesar.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

It's pretty fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

Yeah, that would be a cool episode because growing up in the church, you hear the Christmas story, you hear the Easter story over and over and over again. But even now, sometimes like I'm still learning, like, oh, it was so symbolic that he wrote in on a donkey because, you know, and like it like even why were people's feathers so ruffled that Jesus came in? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. So it's like really cool. That would be a cool episode to break all that down.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

But it'd be good to do it sooner rather than later because we got resurrection Sunday next week.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Um, so then what Jim Hamilton talks about in that is from the earliest church um established, you see persecution or tribulation that fits into the all of it discourse where Jesus says there's going to be great tribulation, such as the world's never seen. And then throughout history, different periods and times of it. And so what this view holds is that there will be increasing tribulation against Christians, but the gospel will continue to be proclaimed and advance. The the gospel of the kingdom will be advanced and proclaimed throughout the earth. And at some point, then the end will come and Jesus will return. When he returns, he will usher in the millennial kingdom. That's the historic premillennial view. Okay. We'll we'll also include a graph or chart of that.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Um that view make I can I can get on board with that because it removes the secret rapture and this weird seven-year period of time that when you listen to what people uh that hold each of these views use to support their view, that pre-tribulational secret rapture and the seven years, to me, there's no I don't see how there's any real biblical support for it.

SPEAKER_04 16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

I do see um how people can give a defense for the premillennial view that's historic, where there's no rapture, secret rapture, no seven years, but that there's gonna be they're saying, oh, we just believe there's gonna be a literal thousand-year rain. And all of this has to do with that revelation chapter 20 interpretation.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Um and the the chapter before Revelation 20, Revelation 19 is the chapter where Jesus rides in on the white horse. Pre-millennial people believe that that takes place, that Revelation 19 and 20 are chronological. So they would say Jesus rides in on the white horse in Revelation 19, strikes down his enemies, and in Revelation 20 then establishes a 1,000-year reign where Satan is bound.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

The next view we're gonna get into, the last two views that we're gonna try to give some clarity on, would say that Revelation 19 and 20 are not chronological. That Revelation 20 um could be read by itself, and then that you go back to Revelation 19 and say the timing of Jesus coming in on the white horse would take place after Revelation 20 and the millennial kingdom. So the next view is that we'll consider is the awillennial view. And the a-millennial view and then the last view, the post-millennial view, have a lot of similarities. Just like those first two have similarities, these last two will have similarities. The a millennial view, and we'll again include a graph or a chart, just teaches that uh basically when Jesus was at the cross and he declared it is finished, and that Peter then writes that Jesus sort of triumphed over the devil and and hell and demons, and then when um Paul writes to the Colossians that he disarmed them, nailing nailing that to the cross, um that he now has disarmed Satan, so Satan is still in effect to some degree on the loose, but he's disarmed against the advance of the gospel. So they would say that we're living in this symbolic millennial period where Satan has very limited power, and what he cannot do is stop the advance of the gospel. Even if he tries to persecute Christianity through governments or kingdoms or movements, the gospel is going to continue to advance. So the a millennial view would say right now, this period in history, Jesus is ruling and reigning on his throne in heaven. The people that die as Christians go into his presence. It's called the intermediate state. So right now, while you and me are sitting here recording this podcast and Snowbird's preparing to preach the gospel this summer, that Jesus is ruling and reigning, and that the saints that have gone before us are there with him. There's this simultaneous to what we're experiencing here on earth, there's this rule and reign of Christ in this millennial kingdom.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

And that what we're experiencing here is the reason we minister so confidently at Snowbird is because the gospel can't be stopped. It cannot be thwarted. There's nothing the devil can do to stop the advance of the gospel. And so he is bound in a sense, and that's what we talked about in the last episode. He's on a chain or a leash. Yeah. And he can do damage, but not to the advance of the gospel and not to the Christian.

unknown 20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

That's the all-millennial view. The timeline for that is the cross and the empty tomb established the millennial kingdom, which is the church age. And so right now Jesus is ruling and reigning. And there will be a point then when the gospel has filled up what Christ intended to fill up in history. Jesus will return and establish his uh kingdom. And that in that return, he will restore the earth.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

I was about to ask you.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yeah. But what basically what it was like at Eden.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

What it was intended to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

Which to me, that is cool to think about because uh I'm sure some of you guys know we've talked about it on the podcast before. But the other day, not too long ago, I was driving through Asheville area, Canton area, and that is where the hurricane was at Helene. Helene. Helene. It wasn't obviously the hurricane, but like the storm surge hit really hard. And so that area is still to this day. It's been over a year. Just damaged and businesses shut down, will never open back up. Like it almost looks like apocalyptic. Yes, like almost like Hunger Games or something. Like, and so I was thinking about that driving through. I was like, man, it will be cool. Like Like I was my mind was just running, like, man, it if the Lord comes and restores, like if this uh all mill, I don't know, my brain was just going everywhere and I was like, man, all of these like ransacked and there was a shed up in a tree from like the flood. I was like, it'll be cool to see this restored, you know, and like Earth how it was, you know, intended to be and how the Lord created it to be with no sin and no floods and no, like, you know, I it just got my mind thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

I wrote in my journal this morning, this was just in my quiet time with uh resurrection Sunday coming up. I'm preaching uh at church on Sunday for Easter or Resurrection Sunday, we like to call it. Um, and in 1 Corinthians 15, where that's like the longest discourse in the Bible on resurrection. And I wrote this um, this is in verses 35 to 44 of 1 Corinthians 15. I was just writing my own personal devotional commentary. Our physical bodies will die broken, and then they'll decay, but they will be raised in a state of eternal glory and perfection. What does that mean? It means no more aches, no more pains, no more knee or hip replacements, no more eyeglasses, no menopause, no hair loss, no cancer, no aging, no glaucoma, melanoma, Lyme disease, flu, arthritis, COVID, allergies, no more leukemia, no hearing aids, no insulin pumps, no hospitals or rehab centers. There will be no more addiction or dependency, no more blood pressure medication or need for counseling. So you've got this idea. I got real excited this morning thinking about that. It's like imagine the things that we love about um creating and developing and engineering and on in the new earth. People are gonna continue to grow and use their gifts and create, yeah, but with no sin, no pain, no hospitals. Yeah, it's kind of crazy to think about.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Very crazy.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

So the the all millennial view says when Jesus returns, he'll return to this earth and then he'll create or restore or renew all that's fallen and broken.

SPEAKER_03 24:14

Is that only all mill or is that also post mill?

Postmillennial Hope For The Nations

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Also post mill, I believe. And again, don't be judging y'all, don't be judging us if we get your view a little bit wrong. But yeah, post-mill would teach the same thing. What post mill um will teach, and we can move into that, is that where omil says right now we're living in this this age where the gospel is flourishing. The omil view would say it's flourishing, but there is tribulation alongside of it. But that that tribulation is not gonna stop the advance of the gospel. The post-mill takes it one step further, and post-mill um people will say this is way more fun. And it is, if you think about it, it would be really cool if post-mill was the view. Because they say the gospel is going to continue to grow and advance until it just consumes the earth. And then there's this at the end of history, there's this golden age of just gospel flourishing in every government, yeah, every everywhere you go on the earth, the gospel will be flourishing. So you go to North Korea, imagine going to North Korea, that's crazy, and the gospel is flourishing. Churches are flourishing, people are worshiping the Lord, those that aren't yet believers are being evangelized, the government is pointing people towards Christ. Yeah, yeah. So that's the post-mail view that there's this move towards uh of a filling of the earth with gospel impact. Yeah. And then Jesus returns. And like I heard Al Moeller criticized in this view, he said, it, and I even and I repeated this criticism. This is one of the things that I kind of got frustrated with myself in the last episode. Um, Moeller said, Why would Jesus, it sounds like Jesus is saying, I'll just wait in heaven until the earth is really perfect and then I'll come back. Um, and I don't think that's what the post mail is teaching. They're saying that Jesus is working through gospel proclamation and advancement in the earth. Then he'll come once the earth is filled with the glory of the gospel, and he would establish then um this new earth and this new kingdom. Um and in both of those, the timeline would be similar. So uh again, we'll include these. So in the omil view, you've got we're living in the church age where Jesus is ruling and reigning from heaven while we're continuing to do the advance of the gospel. They would say that Revelation chapter 20, verses 1 through 6 is happening right now, and that then Christ at some point in the future will return. When he returns, the dead in Christ will be raised, the undead in Christ will also be raised, but they'll be raised unto judgment. And the dead in Christ will be raised to enter into this new heaven and new earth with Christ, and the eternal state will begin. The post-millennial view would be that we're living in the church age, and the millennium is going to happen on earth.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

So this millennial reign of Christ will be happening on earth that'll kind of run subsequent to the church age, and then from there on it looks kind of the same. So to me, it seems like again, I might not be articulating this the right way. The a-millennial view would say right now the church is is advancing and growing on the earth, but subsequent or alongside of great tribulation and persecution, but that Christ is ruling and reigning in heaven. The post-mill view would say tribulation is going to begin to get smaller and smaller and smaller, and then the millennial reign is going to start to occur on the earth through the advance of the gospel, and then both of them would say, then the dead will be raised either unto eternal life or unto judgment. Unbelievers that are raised who have died in their unbelief will be raised to judgment, and then eternity will be ushered in. So that's kind of the four views. We'll include these charts. But um I okay, I I think I said this in the last episode. I I toggle somewhere between historic pre-mill and ah meal. I think I probably right now lean more into the ah millennial view. To me, it makes sense that at the cross Satan was really defeated.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

It also doesn't make sense to me that there would be a future time where Satan gets set free to deceive people.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

Yes, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

And to lead an uprising against Christ. I have a hard time.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

And even now, I feel like I feel that like Satan tempting me, or like Satan tempting believers, but knowing he doesn't have ultimate power or reign. It's like that's what that's what I believe. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Like I know that's what we teach.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

Exactly. So I think I'm with you on that, almost like that Satan is kind of on a leash right now, that he was ultimately like defeated at the cross, and now he's just, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

And I and this is where like uh this kind of goes against like Catholic doctrine of exorcisms, and you know, it I think a lot of these views come down to for me, trying to figure out what makes the most sense. Satan is the big component. What is his power right now? What is his ability right now? How can he demonize someone or control someone? And and really it all of these views where they really make their their distinctions are how they interpret Revelation, chapters 19 and 20. Really chapter 21 through 6 with the millennial kingdom. It's the only time it's mentioned in the Bible.

SPEAKER_04 29:50

Yeah.

What All Views Share

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Um and so you've got to determine do I think that is a literal 1,000-year reign that takes place after Revelation 19, um, where in Revelation 19, I saw heaven open and behold a white horse, and he who sat on him was faithful and true, and Jesus comes to make war against his enemies, and then the millennial kingdom comes in a chapter later. Or do I think the timeline is maybe not necessarily clear and clean in those two chapters? The the thing I want to close with that we we did last time talk about this, but I just want to be clear. We all believe that Christ is going to return literally, yes, visibly, and establish an eternal kingdom. We all believe that.

SPEAKER_04 30:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

And I'm thankful for that. I also want people to know that Jesus said he would be with us to the end of the age. And so he's put his spirit in our hearts now. If tribulation or persecution comes, true believers will endure to the end because of the spirit of Christ in us. Um the advance of the gospel will never be stopped. It cannot be stopped. History has already proven that. It's building momentum right now. Yeah. We don't need a government to make that happen. We don't need a president or a military to make that happen. You cannot stop the advance of the gospel because when Jesus regenerates the hearts and lives and minds of people, they they are completely changed. The Bible says they become new creations. And they'll advance the gospel. You can't a true Christian is going to share the gospel of Jesus and defend it and proclaim it. And all these views would hold to that. The other thing that I think is interesting is the last two chapters of Revelation. You've probably read this. It says, I saw a new a city, the new Jerusalem coming down. I think that there's a debate over is Jesus going to return to literal Jerusalem in Israel? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

And it like where he ascended Jerusalem, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

And there's a debate over, he said, the way you saw me ascend from this point, I'm going to come back to this point. And so there's a big debate over that. Um, I think uh the new Jerusalem that you see in Revelation 21 and 22 seems to be a picture of just this all-encompassing new creation. Where I think there's cities, there's rural countryside, there's, you know, but the new creation is the new Jerusalem. It's not a single singular city.

SPEAKER_04 32:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

It's not like Jerusalem is just like Tel Aviv. They're the two biggest cities in Israel, just like we have New York City, Chicago, Houston, and LA are the four biggest cities in America. And so there's all these cities. The New Jerusalem, I think, encompasses it all. That's what it seems to me like. And I think most proponents of historic premillennial premillennialism, I mill, and post-mill would all agree with that. Yeah. That the New Jerusalem is not this singular city, this new location of the city of Jerusalem. It's this new creation.

SPEAKER_04 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Um, the exciting thing is there's gonna be a new creation. Me and you're gonna be hanging out recording podcasts.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

I think that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

I really do. Like I think that just imagine life as we know it now with all the the things we said a while ago. Satan's bound, he's not deceiving anybody, there's no tears, there's no sorrow.

SPEAKER_04 33:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

I have a friend whose dad is a pastor, he's deaf. And he said he his ministry has been so effective. He has the largest deaf church, um, like deaf congregation. Yeah. And I know this family really well, love them dearly. Uh you know them. Um, but I was talking with the son, and we're talking about his dad. He said, My dad says he thinks he'll be deaf in heaven and in the in the eternal state. And I was like, he won't. Yeah, he won't, because Jesus, one of the things Jesus did was restored hearing and sight and speech.

SPEAKER_04 33:58

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

But I thought, what a cool testimony. This guy is so in love with the Lord and so trusts God's provision for his life that he's content being deaf.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Um, and I don't think he'll be deaf. I think he'll be able to hear it, but I think it'll be glorious when he hears the sound of the trumpet call of Christ. You know, like, and I get I think, what will that brother who I love dearly, what is that experience going to be like when the first thing I think he hears is the voice of Jesus. That would be crazy. The trumpet sound and the call of God, you know, like Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

Because you even see, have you ever seen those videos where it's a little kid and they get hearing aids for the first time and they hear the voice of their mom. Their mom. And it's even that or their dad, and it's like so emotional, so I can only imagine, you know. So crazy to think about. That is, yeah, a couple things. One, I think when I get the most excited, and it really like starts to get my wheels turning about this new creation and heaven and everything like that, is worship. Like when at Snowbird you're hearing all the voices just proclaim Jesus. It's like I get emotional and like excited over like that's what we'll be doing, you know? And like not only I remember when I was younger thinking like, I'm just gonna be in an eternal church service, like, you know, like uh, but it will be like worship and everything. Like you said, like worship in our podcasts, or like worship and like your desires and you know, hobbies and building a house. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Fixing your car, like I want to soup this up. I want to you know, guys that like to turn wrenches and build things, yes, gals that love to do art, it'll all be perfected.

Intermediate State Purgatory Soul Sleep

SPEAKER_03 35:33

For sure. And then also, this is kind of off topic, but when it talks about when Jesus will uh resurrect, and then either it'll be judgment or where are those people now? Like if they've not been judged, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah. The those that died as unbelievers? Yes. Okay, yeah. So I would encourage people to get a good systematic theology book and study this piece. That's a good question. So, what I have in front of me is Wayne Grudham's systematic theology. That so right now, both believers and unbelievers that have died are in what theologians call the intermediate state.

SPEAKER_04 36:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Um and so unbelievers are their experience right now is in like a holding place of of the damned or the unregenerate.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Um, but if I understand correctly, the way Grutom lays it out, the way theologians lay it out, is that the the current holding place of lost people is not where they their eternal holding place will be. Just like unjust like believers that are now with the Lord. This is one of the reasons I love the aw-mil view. It makes sense to me that believers are now with Jesus in this kingdom, but it's an intermediate kingdom.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

It's not the final kingdom. Okay. It's an intermediate kingdom where Jesus is ruling and reigning, and they're with the Lord because the Bible says he therefore God has highly exalted him, Philippians 2. So he's back at the throne where he rightly belongs. He's been exalted. So believers that are with him in the intermediate state are are with Christ. Unbelievers, let's real quick see what Grudom says about this. Let me just read.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

And then my follow-up question after you read this would be what's the difference between that and purgatory? Like what Catholics believe.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Okay. Yeah. Okay, so um what Grudom says, and and this is in in his uh, I think it's chapter 41 in systematic theology. It's on page 816. A lot of people have this book. Um, what happens when people die? The souls of believers go immediately into God's presence. And so then you get into the different views that we've just discussed, what that looks like. Um but the souls of unbelievers go immediately into eternal punishment. Scripture never encourages us to think that people will have a second chance to trust in Christ after death. Um, now, again, this gets into the discussion of what does that look like based on these different views. But what I'll what I wanted to point out, you mentioned offline, or maybe maybe you just said this about purgatory.

SPEAKER_04 38:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Okay, so the Bible doesn't teach the doctrine of purgatory. What purgatory teaches is that there's like a holding place that's sort of in between, and that you can go to purgatory, and then either you can earn your way into heaven, or people here can can get you into heaven.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

And I think like people on earth can get their lost ones to heaven, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

And it gets tricky because okay, I'm no Catholic expert. Go back and listen to the John Paul. Yeah, um, and we're gonna interview him, Lord willing again this summer. And I think this would be fun to talk to John about this summer. Let's make sure we we talk to him about this. But the doctrine of purgatory is so in 1 Corinthians 15, there's this reference to praying for the dead or the baptism of the dead. It's first Corinthians 15. Um this is a a verse and a passage that throws people off. I I don't know what to make of it. First Corinthians 15, 29. If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead?

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again? So why what is he talking about? People are being baptized for the dead.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

Yeah, mine says like on behalf of the dead.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Yeah, is that ESV? Yeah, ESV. Yeah, and that's I like the way the ESV says it. Um, so uh in Roman Catholic teaching, purgatory is the place where the souls of believers go to be further purified from sin until they're ready to be admitted into heaven.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Um, and that most of that teaching is taken from the apocryphal books. Okay. So like 2 Maccabees, um, the books that that the Catholic Church includes in their Bible, books of the Apocrypha, is where you'll find the teaching on purgatory. The only reference that I can find anything like that in scripture would be, and that's not a reference to purgatory, but the right that you gotta wrestle with yeah, yeah. Um the other thing that some there's two other things people will teach about this. One is soul sleep. Soul sleep is let me see if I can get Grudham's definition of it. This doctrine teaches that when believers die, they go into a state of unconscious existence, and the next thing that they are conscious of will be Christ's return and raising them to eternal life. Um, that's the the doctrine of soul sleep. So that teaches that right now believers are just asleep.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Um they take that from passages where the word sleep is used, I think. And um, so soul sleep is this idea that um you die, you go into this long, deep sleep, your soul is at rest while your body decays, and then at the resurrection, new body, soul is resurrected, and then you enter into your eternal existence. But then the last one would be people teach something called annihilationalism. Have you ever heard of that?

SPEAKER_03 41:09

No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Annihilationalism, like the the one that comes to my mind is um Seventh-day Adventists, I think, teach it. It's the idea that if you die as a lost person, that you you're annihilated. Like there may be a period of punishment in hell. Okay. One one thing is that's taught is there's a period of punishment, but then you see it's not eternal. So you just you cease to exist. That's called annihilationalism. And I don't I don't know where the support for that comes from. I mean, let's see what Grudham says. We've got his book open here. I think it's in the same chapter. Scripture does he says scripture encourages us to think, never encourages us to think that people have a second chance to trust in Christ after death. In fact, the situation is quite contrary, and he and he references the story of the rich man in Lazarus. The rich man goes to you know, goes into torment and he and he's like crying for relief, and it's like there'll never be any relief. Um I think it's important to ask these questions when you're struggling with that end time your end time view.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Um and and part of this so I think all of the views that we've discussed would teach that right now believers are in some way with the Lord in the intermediate state, and unbelievers are in punishment. They're internal. We would say hell. Um, but they're in their their eternal punishment has begun. They'll be in some, you know, depending on how people view the the judgment of unbelievers, they would be brought to judgment at a future time.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Um and then put into eternal damnation. The the revelation chapters there, 19 and 20, refer to Satan being bound and cast into the lake of fire. So we know that's gonna happen, and then that eternal kingdom, he'll be he'll have no he'll have no presence in the eternal kingdom. So when we're with the Lord eternally, he will have no presence. He doesn't exist, he doesn't have any influence or presence yet. He is he is condemned to hell, and he's just there with the souls of the damn, like he's not like ruling over hell. Yeah, he's not the king of hell or whatever, the under, the underlord, the under the lord of the underworld, treaties or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

That's right. He's just bound and judged and condemned.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

And I think the Bible at one point even says hell is created for him.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Um what a loser. Yeah, doesn't even get to rule over hell.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Don't even get to rule over hell. He's down there kicking rocks.

Israel Episode And Guest Teasers

SPEAKER_03 43:51

Okay, I know we got a little sidetracked, but I think that was good. Yeah. Um, I wanted to talk about a little bit about Israel. We mentioned that in the last episode. Later this week, we're gonna do an in-depth episode on Israel. Yeah. Um, so I just wanted to give you guys that to look forward to um because it is very confusing. It is complicated. Yeah, but I've been doing some research, and I know Brody has been really taking time to look into this, and so that will be if not next week, the week after. Um just to give some clarification on that and just not even clarif clarification, once again, just another conversation. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

And watch this is the week of bonus episodes. We've got um, we're gonna be dropping an episode. We sat down with my brother and discussed the a few weeks back the episode on my dad. Um, it was cool. Uh, we got my brother's perspective.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Um, and I think that's gonna be it's it's intense.

SPEAKER_03 44:50

Yeah. That that was one of my favorite episodes, I think we've done this season. We sat, I'll give you guys a little preview. We sat down with Duke and Paco, so Bertie's cousin.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Brother and cousin. Brother and cousin. Yeah, Duke is his name's Brandon. We all call him Duke. That's my brother. And then Paco is.

SPEAKER_03 45:07

I always thought his name was Duke.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Yeah, that's all he's gone by. I I nicknamed him Duke when he was about five years old.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

And then what's Paco's real name?

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Michael.

SPEAKER_03 45:15

How did he get Paco?

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Uh, when he was a teenager and he was living with us one summer, he was an instigator. He was always picking and uh always wanting to wrestle or fight. And uh I had a dog, it was a blue healer. We had cows, we worked at that dude ranch, the TMI job. He lived with us that summer at TMI, and I had a blue healer that we would work cattle with, and that dog would pick a fight. It was just nipping, nipping, nipping, and his name was Paco. And we started calling Michael Paco because he acted just like that dog, and it stuck. He was like he's in his 40s now, he's like mid-40s maybe, and that he was 15 when I nicknamed him Paco. Yeah, and Duke will be 50 this year, and Duke was five when I nicknamed him Duke.

SPEAKER_03 46:02

Yeah, Birdie is the king of nicknames.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Yep, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 46:06

Well, those are some episodes you guys can be looking forward to. The one with Duke and Paco, the one with just Duke and you, and then the one about Israel.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:15

Um, yeah, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

And I'm excited for our whole list. We're gonna be interviewing upcoming a board member who is a uh who won a bronze star in the G Watt, the Global War on Terror, a crazy story, but he's now a church planner who's doing God's work out in uh a really liberal area that needs the gospel and excited to sit down with him. He's a close friend and brother. Um, I'm really excited about that interview.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

And we're gonna sit down with Bumper. Yep. The sheriff that arrested what's his name? Eric Rudolph. Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

That that episode was what, a year or so ago.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

Oh, yeah, I think over a year. Two years ago. Yeah. Eric Rudolph, the bomber, the Olympic bomber, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

Yeah. So that'll be cool. We have some really cool stuff for you guys. Yeah, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

Yeah, I am too. Uh, teaser on the bumper video, I can't wait to ask him. He said that when they got Rudolph in like in detention or whatever, detained, he asked for a Bible and a chaplain. So I'm curious to hear how they manage that. Yeah. Bumper's son, uh Sheriff Lovin' son, was at church at Red Oak Sunday. He's uh he's a combat veteran who now works in, he worked for Smarteness Purse for a while, then he worked in, I think now he works in a ministry, two veterans. He lives in Illinois, and he was they were visiting this week. Oh nice. They came to Red Oak. I was talking to his son, Brad, telling him, Hey, we're going to interview your dad for NSR. And he said, uh, he's the one that told me that. He said, get him to tell you about what he requested. Wow. Bible and a chaplain.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Cool. Yeah, I'm excited to hear that.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Yeah. But from what I understand, Eric Rudolph loved the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_03 47:53

Yeah. I know the type. I know the type, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

Well, sweet.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Thanks for sending the uh shout out to JB right here in front of everybody because I got I I texted her at six o'clock this morning and said, hey, we've got to sit down and do a follow-up. I did not like the way that I handled that last episode. And it's hard to talk about something that you don't know a lot about and but you feel like you need to discuss. And so anyway, I appreciate your flexibility today.

SPEAKER_03 48:21

Of course. Yeah, I hope this brought some clarity. I will link those pictures of the charts down below that we used, and even those were really helpful for me. Um, so hopefully that will help you guys out.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at swoutfitters.com to see all of our programming and resources. And we'll see you next week on No Sanity Required.