No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
Rebuilding a Life After Abuse | Interview with Denise Morris Pt. 2
This episode includes conversation around mature and heavier subjects. Listener discretion is advised.
In this Part 2 episode, Brody and JB continue their conversation with Denise about how childhood abuse shaped her marriage and long-term healing. They explore how Christ carries both our guilt and the harm done to us, using the Old Testament scapegoat as a picture of shame removed.
The discussion covers trauma triggers, intimacy challenges, and the distinction between forgiveness, repentance, and reconciliation, along with why healing doesn’t depend on an apology. Tune into a conversation navigating abuse recovery, marriage after trauma, and ongoing sanctification.
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Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.
We we took a break, but oh, and then we started talking. And so then we weren't recording, and so now we are. We we missed some things that maybe we'll circle back to. But one thing that I I was sharing with Denise and JB and Joe Syze here at Snowbird, we have such a high volume of abuse cases that we deal with. And one of the things that we talk to girls about, and boys, but we talk to students about is when Jesus goes to the cross, we teach one of the hills that we'll die on is the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement, which you hold to, we all hold to, that Jesus died in my place. He took my sin. He sacrificially gave his life so that I could be free from my sin. And we were celebrating Romans 8:1 earlier. There's no condemnation because Christ took it. But also, when he went to the cross, he became my expiation. So the idea that Jesus is my propitiation is that he died for my sin in my place. The idea that he's my expiation is that he died for sin committed against me that I don't have the authority to forgive or to get out from under. And so you've got this really powerful picture in the Old Testament with the scapegoat where sins are laid on this goat that's carried into the wilderness and released. And I think it's so significant and symbolic. The idea is sin that you can't put to death because you didn't commit it. It was committed against you. You can forgive it, but but there seems to be, how do I deal with it fully? The doctrine of Christ's expiation is seen in the way that scapegoat symbolically carries. I mean, we're sitting in this beautiful mountain landscape. We're looking out Denise's front door and this front window, and we're looking at the Murphy watershed in that mountain range. If you can imagine, so I know I've been on those mountains. Beyond that mountain, you keep going and you go over into if you go over that mountain and then bear back to the right, kind of to the north, you get into a huge stretch of national forest before you get into the Great Smokies National Park. Imagine taking that goat and walking it, you know, a day's journey back through those mountains, and then that priest would release it and he would come back. And the symbolism was Jesus has taken the sin that's been committed against you and he's taking it into the wilderness to deal with it. You're free from that. It's like just as visual for me. But it is very difficult to help a 16-year-old girl who's been used and abused understand that, or even a 20, 25-year-old understand. Jesus is is he has the the ability to free you from this.
SPEAKER_02:When you say that, I am in agreement with that, but that conjures up this notion that it's all gonna be fine from there on out. But I think it's important for people to understand that like JB was saying, there are consequences, there are natural consequences that happen in us, in our emotions, in our body, um, that may not go away right away. And there's I've always likened it to oh my goodness, there goes another layer of this onion, and it's painful as it's being ripped away. That's a great analogy. When Todd and I got married, our wedding night, I knew that I knew that he was my person. Our relationship started as a friendship for almost a year. So we never had a moment of pretenses with each other. So on my wedding night, I never expected to have the emotions that I had. Um my wedding day, I sat and cried because I didn't feel worthy, first of all. And I'm like, where is this coming from?
SPEAKER_01:And that's also after years of you being plugged in from into the church and walked away from that. Yes. But like that's what you're saying. It's it's not just oop fine and daisy, you know.
SPEAKER_02:There are these little things that are gonna trigger um our wedding night. It was the most uncomfortable situation for me because I wasn't afraid to give myself to my husband fully. The fear came with I just put myself in a position to submit to the authority of this man, and there's never once been an authority figure in my life that I can trust. I didn't know that's what was going on, but it had an impact on our bedroom relationship for most of our marriage. It we struggled. I had to jump through hoops in my mind every single day, you know, with that part of our relationship for many, many years. And my husband, he was so good at trying to understand and trying to be supportive and at the same time angry because this was not what he expected, you know, this is not what I signed on for. Um but the Lord really used him to nurture me, I guess, in some ways. Um But he reacted in a lot of ways that also made me re decline, made me um withdrawing yourself. Yeah. And I knew in my head he has every right to feel the way he feels, he has every right, and I would go into self self-hatred because I'm this way and I really can't do anything about it. I didn't feel like I could. So there was this constant tension in that. And so we struggled for a long time. Um the Lord has really brought about such major healing, but I also think that he used that part of me in what the work he wanted to do in my husband as well. Sure. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't know that at the time. I also think I like the wording of tension because regardless of the sin you have committed or the sin that's been committed to you, there's going to be tension in this world, you know, even if it's the most godly marriage or whatever, like we're not supposed to live here or long for this earth. You know, as believers, we know of eternity and like eternal peace and no condemnation and all these things that have been promised to us. So I think that's also like a good mindset to kind of look at it of like, okay, me getting married is not gonna magically heal this this um trauma or these emotions. If anything, it might like bring them up and open a open up a wound, you know, but it's like that tension of submitting it to the Lord and knowing, okay, this is a sanctifying process for me and my husband. Like the same thing of I really appreciate you said like the Lord used you in Todd's life just as much as he used Todd in your life, you know. So it's like that balance of tension, I guess, and just just keeping that focus on the Lord and on eternity and that sanctifying process, you know. But I'm glad that you were able to share that and speak on that, because I know that's a not a very commonly talked upon topic aspect of the situation.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_03:Um would you say, can I I'd like to get your take on something. Um, this is what I was kind of getting at a while ago. What I've learned is um the people that come out of this type of abuse, um, and each story is unique. It's like a snowflake, it's like a fingerprint. It's this is your story that God is working all things for his glory and your good if if you press into that, but it's your specific story. Um the thing that you've you've got to come to a place like when Paul says, Your grace is sufficient for me, your strength is made perfect in my weakness. Is that the answer to this? It's not you'll never figure it out, you'll never have a category to put it in, you'll never have a bag or a box to put it in and set it on a shelf. It's you have to press into it, press into the strength of Jesus and go, I don't understand it, but I know that your strength will continue to do its work in my weakness, and that um when when I'm weakest, you are strongest, and you press into that relationship with Christ. Is that the hope that a person can can look to? You lean into it like that, rather than try to make sense of it or get out from under it?
SPEAKER_02:I think ultimately it'd be nice to get to that point where you could do that. Um and I have gotten to that point, but I'm 65-year-old. Uh I'd say within the last 10 years, I have probably gotten to that point where I just was like, I am the way I am, and I've pressed into the word. I have I have done what the word said, I've taken every thought captive, and I've applied it to the truth of the gospel. Um that has been my foundation, that has been my strength. Um, I think that my husband and I have the reason we're together today is solely because uh we died to self every time we would butt heads in regard to this area, we would just die to self. And scripture says, die to self. What does the Lord say? And then we would press in, what do you say, Lord? Because it's if you have a relationship with Christ, it's not gonna be some passage out of scripture. It's gonna be specific to you, it's never gonna contradict scripture, but it is going to be specific to you and your relationship.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think, Bertie, what you were saying, even for me, like in my life, for the people who I feel like have wronged me or really hurt me, it's like I can long for an apology or you know, to reconcile that. But at the end of the day, and I think this could go for your situation, Katie's situation, at the end of the day, even a million apologies at to a point are never going to fulfill me or you know, like fill that hole that has been created. So kind of like really banking and resting and like the Lord's grace is sufficient, and that's what I'm banking on. You know what I mean? Like, no matter the sins I've committed or the sins that have been committed to me, or whatever that looks like, it's like I I know for me and myself I can get really caught up of like, no, this right needs or this wrong needs to be right, you know, or like this apology needs to be taken, or I felt disrespected in this area. So like I need to, you know, map it all out and fix it, you know. But at the end of the day, even if it's something silly of someone coming and saying, hey, I'm sorry I did that, sometimes I can still be left feeling uncontent because or discontent because I was putting all my I guess restoration or hope in that person's apology when really that's not like what it's supposed to do, you know. So I think that's a good point of like banking on the Lord's grace and strength.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I agree with that. Um Ted died before I ever came to a place where I could even ask for an apology, but I harbored a lot of hatred toward him for a long, long time. Um the Lord spoke to my heart. You know, scripture says that we will I'm gonna butcher this. We if if we will be judged according to the way that we forgive, or we'll be forgiven according to the way that we forgive. I went through a lot of time where I was like, I don't know, Lord, you can do with him whatever you want to. I'm not gonna condemn him to eternal death. And I'm quite certain that if he were to share space with me in heaven, that you will have transformed him at that point. You know what I mean? That's the point where I got to. When I was growing up, it wasn't forgiveness was never of an apology was never an option. I was supposed to just endure family get-togethers and and act as though nothing happened.
SPEAKER_03:Which is very destructive to a kid.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:To your psyche, to your emotional stability, to your heart, your mind. Because you used the phrase earlier, you you use the term self-esteem. And with that, what what was in question in your mind and heart was your self-worth, your value. You had been devalued. So once you had been objectified, that's bad enough. Then you had been devalued because of the way things went with the note, the letter taped together, the way it was presented, the reaction that came about. It's like, I'm not even worth getting to the bottom of this over. It's not even worth finding the truth out. Nobody's gonna ask me what happened here. So now you go from you go from being used to being devalued in the worst way to being betrayed. Well, what does Jesus promise? He gives us value. He never leaves us or forsakes us. He's with us to the end of the age. So it it's everything that's the antithesis to the gospel, is what you're pressed into. It's what your mind is sort of pressed into, the way Plato as a kid, when we would put Plato into those little shapes, everything's smashed into here's your value, here's the injustice, here's what you're worth. Here, and so then there's no reason for you to not believe all of those things. And it disconnects it in a kid's in a young person who's been um through these experiences. It disconnected that from the gospel so that when you go to church, the only thing that filters through to you is the legalism. Here's the do's and don'ts. But but what brings value to the child of God is the relationship of reconciliation that I have with Christ. And and here's what here's what um we recently did. I recently, last year I did a, I think a three-part series where we talked about there's there's three when there's a wrong that's been done, or there's broken fellowship, or there's enmity between me and another person. For the Christian, there's three options. I can forgive, okay. Forgiveness, so you got two people, one and two, you and Ted, me and my dad, or the guy that, you know, whatever. And then we can everybody here can, and there's a lot of these relationships in our lives, but you got two people. Okay, so I can forgive even though he's not asking me to. I can extend forgiveness. What that does is that gives me some freedom from the bondage of bitterness, right? Or I can ask forgiveness for a wrong I've committed. And what that does is it frees me from the bondage of guilt. Okay. So if I've been wronged and I choose to forgive, even though it's not been asked, it frees me from the bondage of bitterness. So it frees me from the dominion of that sin that's been committed against me. If I've wronged someone and I ask for forgiveness, it frees me from the guilt associated with what I've done. Either of those things only requires one person. I can forgive you and you don't have to ask me for it. It free, you're still dealing, you still, that's between you and God, but I'm free from the bitterness and from holding that. Or I can ask forgiveness and you can say, No, I don't forgive you. I'm gonna hold on to this grudge or this resentment or whatever, but I'm free from that sin through that confession and repentance. And but the third thing is there can only be reconciliation between two people when both people come through the blood of Jesus and there's forgiveness and repentance. And in these cases, oftentimes, usually even, what I have to do is say, okay, I'm gonna forgive this person so that, and it's not about I'm forgiving them so that they don't have to be seen as guilty. I'm forgiving them because in acting like Christ, it sets me free from the dominion of that sin and that bitterness. Right. It sets me free from that, and it reconciles me to God. Right. I'm not reconciled to this person. There's not reconciliation there, but I'm free from the bitterness and I'm reconciled to God. And that's it's it's a very important theological principle from Scripture to understand the distinctions of those three things: forgiveness, repentance, reconciliation. That's three different things that are not always working at the same time. Now, scripture says we have a ministry of reconciliation, but that is in application to the gospel, that we're reconciled to God so we can bring people into a relationship of reconciliation. But in this fallen, broken world, oftentimes, what I'm what I'm striving to do is be reconciled to God and come out from under the weight of that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But, you know, for a for a kid like like the girls that we were talking about that you know, that came to camp last summer, they're so buried under the weight of all of this. Those you know, then none of that, I mean, it's gonna take a miracle of God to to to open their eyes and their hearts and their minds to help them to be able to understand that you know, that Christ has reconciliation and freedom.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. There's this YouTube channel that I watch sometimes. That honestly, I couldn't even tell you really why I watch it, but it's called Soft White Underbelly.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, we watched that. Little and I watched those.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I don't know what it is, but it it's um these stories, these horrible, sad, sickening stories, honestly, very similar to yours, of just a lot of times it's really broken girls or guys, and they've gotten into addiction or sex trafficking or whatever it is, and then they'll kind of come out of it. But I watch those stories and it's not a Christian thing. It's just yeah, the guy's not a believer. Yeah, he just sits down and lets them talk and interviews them. And I'm kind of like every time we do interviews like this, it reminds me of that. But I'm so joyful that like the people we interview have so much hope because like those interviews will kind of end, and you kind of just felt like hopeless. Yeah, it hurts. It's like it's sad to see them, and it's sad. I know it this sounds like dramatic to say, but you can just see it on them. They wear the guilt and like the hopelessness, and they're just so burdened by it. And so I always think about that YouTube channel when we have people like you or Katie or all these people that we've just interviewed, and it just brings me so much relief and joy that like you are the the Holy the Holy Spirit has you, and like you do have hope. And I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:Uh every time I think about that whenever we have interviews like that, but there's even um and that phrase soft white underbelly comes from a quote that Winston Churchill made where he's talking about the brokenness of society and humanity, and he's like the human race, you know, or the human species. I don't forget how he worded it, but basically like there seems to be this strength in humanity, but there's a soft underbelly that's like we're so exposed and we're so vulnerable. Vulnerable, that's the word, yeah, so vulnerable. And I think that guy's name's Mark, and uh and it's so sad when you have you seen the ones where he shows the people from the previous year's interviews that have died. Oh, here's the people that died this year.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:It's like because he's interviewing street people, prostitutes, drug addicts, yeah, lots of addicts, lots of prostitutes. A lot of his interviews are in LA in the district where there's like prostitution and a lot of drugs and homelessness. And he just brings people in, sits them down in a chair. I mean, they come right off the street. He turns the camera on. And yeah, it is, it is uh every time I watch one, and I watch it to to be reminded because it is not entertaining, it puts you in a huh. But it little and I will watch it because it reminds us of why we do what we do. Because that guy, Mark, he's not got the answers.
SPEAKER_01:Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_03:He's got a he's got a viral YouTube channel. Um, and I think he's a uh I think he's a well-intentioned dude. Sure. Because he does not exploit those people. Yeah, just lets them tell he's like, I want your voice to be heard by the world, and you're you've been marginalized and you're homeless or you're a prostitute. I want the world to hear your story. And he just lets them tell their story and he asks some provocative questions, and yeah, yeah, but at the end there's no hope.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, even for the ones who have gotten out of addiction or gotten out of a bad situation, like I said, you can still just see it on them. Like, there's no hope, you know.
SPEAKER_03:And every once in a while, there's a believer.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I've seen plenty of those.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and they'll and like this one girl, she was a um, she was a prostitute, a call girl, she was an addict, and he's like, and you know, and they there's the point in the story where she starts sharing her testimony and he doesn't know what to do with that. You know, he's like, oh, you know, he's kind of spinning out, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I also, it's like like I mentioned before, whenever I hear these stories, like sometimes my mind wonders to like, man, that so closely could have been you, you know, like you could have continued to go down that path, but it's like I would have been dead.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you about put your car in a wall that not, yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yes, and it's like praise the Lord that even if the church that you were brought up in was legalistic or whatever, maybe those people are crooked or skewed or whatever. I'm so grateful that through that you had a foundation in a relationship with the Holy Spirit. Even if you hadn't talked to him in 15 years, it's like I'm so grateful that he made him his presence known to you. I pray that all the time for people who I don't know if they're saved or you know. Yeah, I always just pray, like, Lord, let your presence be known to them. And I'm so grateful he did so that you're able to be here and share your story. Yeah, share the hope of God and the grace of God.
SPEAKER_02:There were so many girls that I worked with that I just loved them. So yes, I had a compassion for those girls. I loved all of them.
SPEAKER_03:Um did you kind of leave the job at work when you would go home?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:Where they kind of stayed in that yes, okay.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But I look back and I see that the Lord was with me the whole time. I think that's an important aspect that um the Lord showed me a number of times. There was one night um there was a a customer that he was wanting to pay me to leave with him, and I said, I'm sorry I don't do that, but there's other girls here that do. And you know, just ask one of them, and he took offense and he waited for me to come out and he had me at gunpoint. No way, and he was he was bound and determined I was getting in the car with him. And God sent an angel with a a nine millimeter with hollow points, and he came up on that guy and he put it to his head and he said, Yeah, he cussed him, said, drop it. Wow. He beat the crap out of him, then took him to the police station.
SPEAKER_03:Did you know the guy? No, that that that rescued.
SPEAKER_02:It was just a random guy. It was he just happened to be one on dice and he was there that night. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, he was a cop who was there just for uh got off work and went to the strip club or whatever. Yeah, that is crazy.
SPEAKER_01:That dude who raped you and killed you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_03:So yeah, the Lord is with you.
SPEAKER_02:The Lord was with me the whole time, and because I gave my life to him at a little girl, even though I turned away.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he he did it.
SPEAKER_02:He didn't turn away, and even though I did not hear him, it was because I didn't care to hear him. But he was there, and it showed in the way he allowed me to minister to the women that I worked with.
SPEAKER_03:That little missionette. Yes, her prayers were answered and heard. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and I did I did actually lead my best friend out of it.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, I wanted to ask you, was there any after you came out of that, did you see anything like that? So you did?
SPEAKER_02:Just one that I know of, yeah. Um but she was shot and killed not long after she accepted Christ. Dang she was uh she was gonna turn state's evidence.
SPEAKER_03:But she accepted Christ before she was shot and killed.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
unknown:Man.
SPEAKER_03:Can you say her name?
SPEAKER_02:Melanie was a good thing.
SPEAKER_03:I think it's good to say her name.
SPEAKER_02:Why?
SPEAKER_03:So much in a name. You know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Like the scripture says that Jesus knows me and calls me by my name. Like my sheep hear my voice. And they know my they know me, they know my voice, and I call them by name, and and they know my name. And I so I there's, you know, oftentimes we have to keep names out of these type situations, but man, when when you think about like the Lord knew Melanie's name, you know, and I don't know, that's a big deal to me. There's a there's a passage in scripture that refers to people that have given their lives for the faith, and it says, those of whom the world was not worthy. But it doesn't name them. It's like the unnamed, the world doesn't know their name, but then I always think but Jesus knew their name. Yeah, and I'll know their name one day.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Those of whom the world was not worthy. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you guys.
SPEAKER_03:Um, I'd like to I'd like to pray just that the Lord will use this and totally so that we can close that way. Lord, thank you that you do know our names and that before we're formed in the womb of a human woman, our own mothers, that you knew us and you set us apart, just as you did the prophet Jeremiah as he wrote those words. Lord, in your sovereignty somehow you knew all that would happen in Denise's life, and you had a plan that was bigger than the brokenness of the world that she would be brought in and raised up in. And I thank you for that, Lord. I thank you that that's the story of redemption, and that's the story of the gospel and history that we all come from some degree of brokenness and no one's righteous. Your Bible, your word is very clear. The Bible, the scriptures are very clear in Romans 3 that no one's righteous, no one's good. And then that description of in Romans 3 of our our throats are like open graves consuming death. What a stark and ugly picture of the fallenness of man and slavery to sin. But thank you that just a few verses and and over the next few chapters later, your word is clear that you give us peace and forgiveness, and you cleanse and wash us in your blood, and you you give us new life, you you raise us to walk in the newness of that life, and you set us free from the dominion of sin. You give us a purpose, you give us value, you give us worth, and you esteem us highly. We are favored and and esteemed by you, and you remove condemnation, you give us peace. And Denise's story is such a display of all those wonderful truths from your word, and I thank you that she would be willing to share it. I thank you for giving her the courage to share it. I thank you for feeling and empowering and anointing her with your Holy Spirit. Thank you, Holy Spirit, that you would speak through us and even as you have inspired the Word of God and the Scriptures as we know them, you would apply them to our lives and then bring them to life in and through us so that others might know. I pray that you would use this episode and this story to reach people that are hurting and broken. Lord, maybe to bring conviction to those that are predators and offenders, to bring them to a place of repentance. Um I pray for those that need healing and peace that you give it. And we'll give you glory for everything that you do. Thank you, Jesus, for going to the cross on our behalf, in our place, and dying to death that we deserve to die, but you died in our place, and instead you've given us eternal life. We're grateful for that. I pray that I pray now, Lord, that you would guard and protect Denise's mind and heart. Lord, I know that when we do what you call us to do, that the devil attacks, the enemy hates us, our own insecurities surface. And I know that tonight and tomorrow could be especially difficult, but I also know that your presence dwelling in this home. Lord, your angel standing guard around this house, your Holy Spirit filling this place, filling Denise's mind and heart with peace and comfort and strength and calm. Ask you for that and believe that you're gonna provide it, and that tonight this is gonna be the most peaceful evening she's had, even in this season of peaceful evenings, and that tonight you're gonna give her rest, both spiritual and physical rest, and she's gonna experience the blessing that only you can provide that comes with being faithful to your call in our lives. Thank you for in one way today answering the prayer of a little girl, a mission-ess little girl that would ask for you to use her life. And Lord, we believe you're gonna use it in a special way. Um, and we're grateful. None of us are worthy to be used by you, but for whatever reason in your sovereignty, you've chosen to use our stories, and I pray that we'd be faithful to tell them, and that many would know you because of it. In Jesus' name we pray.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at swoutfitters.com to see all of our programming and resources. And we'll see you next week on No Sanity Required.
