No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
Identity Beyond Victimhood | Interview with Katie Hays
On this episode, Katie Hays shares her story of growing up around cultural Christianity, walking through anxiety and depression, and experiencing a sexual assault by someone she trusted. We talk honestly about the aftermath of false guilt, complicated community responses, reporting, and the slow grind of the court process, along with the turning point that led her to place her faith and hope in Jesus.
While this episode covers topics often avoided, the focus is on moving out of shame and reclaiming the victory we have in Christ. We explore how Scripture reframes identity, justice, and courage in the midst of suffering.
Christ's Genealogy and Why It Matters Pt. 1 & 2
Her Loss is Great, But God is Greater | Anne Tully Tuttle
Spoken Word
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Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.
Hey y'all, welcome back to NSR. As usual, I'm so grateful you guys are choosing to tune in this week and listen. Um, a couple things. Sorry if this audio sounds a bit different than the whole entire rest of the episode. We completely forgot to record an intro to this episode, so I'm recording this from my phone. So sorry if it sounds not as quality as usual. And then secondly, um this episode is the story and the testimony of Katie Hayes, who has worked here on staff very faithfully for the past couple of years. Um, but with that being said, this episode definitely includes some more sensitive content, um, mainly about sexual assault and just some more serious and mature things. I know sometimes you guys will like to include your kids listening in on this, which is awesome. But I just wanted to throw this kind of warning out there um just so you guys can use your discernment on whether you want to proceed on listening with your kid or not. Um, but I want to say I'm so proud of Katie for honestly just how far she's come and how much she's trusted the Lord um with the things that she's gone through. It's been such a blessing to be able to just see Katie move towards sanctification and maturity. And I love Katie so much, and I'm so proud of her, and I'm so proud of her for sharing her story on NSR. I really hope that the Lord uses her story to touch you guys and to just encourage you guys and ultimately just let all of you guys know that you're not too far from God's reach. Um, no matter what you've done or what's been done to you. Uh, I'll I'll be quiet and let the episode speak for itself. But I just wanted to preface with those couple of things and also just um share how proud I am of Katie. But I hope you guys enjoy this week's episode of No Sanity Required.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_01:Um I I wanna I wanna get into a little bit your history of coming to Snowbird. Um so before we do that though, I want to get I want to get to the point a lot of people have asked about the spoken word you did this past summer. Yes, people are like, who's that girl? What what and people were shocked when they found out that that was your story being played out, and so that's that's where we want to get.
SPEAKER_03:But let's yeah, let's go back um and just talk about your experience at Snowbird. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, how you got here, what the first time you came.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So I didn't grow up in church. But when I went to when I was in middle school, um one of my best guy friends, his name is Zach Carlton. He's great, we're still great friends to this day, um, invited me to youth group. And I'm from South Central Florida, and so there wasn't many like professing Christians um that were actively following the Lord. But he was like, Come to youth group with me. And I was like, Okay, all my friends are going, so I'll go. And I heard the gospel for the first time and just didn't really care about it. And I was like, this has nothing to do with me. Um, I think I was also just so young, I didn't really understand it. And but that church, First Baptist Church of Wachula, they still come here, which is really cool.
SPEAKER_01:Um shout out, Reed.
SPEAKER_05:Shout out. But they um came to Snowbird and Zach was like, Do you gonna come? And I was like, sure. And so in 2019, I believe was my first year coming. I have a little bit of memory loss from that time, but I don't remember who my first staff member was, um, which I really wish I did. I'm sure there's a picture somewhere.
SPEAKER_01:What grade would you have been in then? Like ninth grade?
SPEAKER_05:I think seventh grade. Oh wow. Yes, sir. And so seventh grade I came, heard the gospel. I was like, oh, this is so fun. Don't really care though. And the Lord just hadn't softened my heart at the time to to receive the gospel. And then I think what year was COVID? 2020. So then I didn't come in 2020, not for any reason. My parents didn't really care about COVID, but so I just didn't come. But um, and so then in 2021, I came and Ebony was my counselor or staff member. Um, and she was very helpful for my walk that year. Um, and I had a boyfriend at the time. So at this point, I would have been going into ninth grade. So, in quotes, I had a boyfriend, you know how that is in middle school. Um, but we had committed sexual sin together, and so I had opened up to Ebony about that, and at the time I still didn't know the Lord, and she just faithfully shared the gospel with me through that and through like some of her story. But I left that summer and still didn't care about the gospel and was still with my boyfriend committing sexual sin.
SPEAKER_01:So you would say your in your time here in that summer, which would have been 2021.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:It was like uh it was a positive experience. Yes, sir, and even a like a spiritual high. Definitely that's an important thing that I think we should do an episode on this. There's a biblical principle that people experience, you know, for we're gonna do this first John series, and there's a point where John says, they went out from us because they were never of us. Right. He's talking about people that were in the church, they were part of the church, they were you know, Hebrews, the guy talks about people that tasted of the they were partakers, they tasted of the goodness of God and the heavenly spirit. And so you had this experience while you were here that if if somebody would have asked you in 2021, are you a Christian, would you have said yeah?
SPEAKER_05:I would have said, definitely, sure. Like I and I believed in God, and I believe that we were created by God, but I had no personal relationship with the Lord at this time and was not following him and didn't even own a Bible.
SPEAKER_01:Like cultural Bible belt.
SPEAKER_05:Definitely.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, and so correct me if I'm wrong, but that was like also just where you grew up, like everyone's gonna be able to do it. Yes, definitely.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and if there were faithful Christians, I didn't know about him.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because again, Bible belt. Yeah, I grew up the same way, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, definitely. Okay. Um, and so that was crazy. But looking back now, I can see the Lord's faithfulness to me then to like put to bring me to camp and to allow me to hear like really solid, very solid doctrine um that later set me up to be able to work here because you know I didn't even, like I said, own a Bible. So I wasn't getting that information for myself or from youth group that I rarely attended. So then um, but I had felt like I wanted to work at camp, but I knew that I wasn't a believer.
SPEAKER_01:So then And you weren't going to this youth group. It was like you went a time or something. I had gone a few times camp or home and then didn't go.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir. And then my had this boyfriend. Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_03:And would you say the boyfriend was kind of the same? Like, would he go to church sometimes? Like go to camp.
SPEAKER_05:And like neither of our families went to church on Sundays, and so we would just go and then go back home, you know, commit sin, whatever, just was living in a sinful lifestyle and had no care for the gospel. Um so then um the end of 2021 when I came, I was like, okay, this is great, whatever. I go back home, continuing to live in sin. And then in January of 2022, I I broken up with that boyfriend.
SPEAKER_03:Um what grade were you in?
SPEAKER_05:At this point, I am a sophomore, yes, sir. And so January I break up with him. And growing up, my parents, they weren't very um my dad, he I love and respect my parents a ton, but he grew up in a household with two other boys and was the quarterback of his football team. So he was very like just very cold. And so not very emotional. And my mom was pretty emotional. And so growing up, I was super private with both of them. So growing up, I had struggled with what I didn't know at the time was some anxiety and some depression. Um, so when I dated this boyfriend, all my identity was in him. And when we broke up, I was like, oh gosh, where where's my identity found? And all of the depression and the anxiety that I had experienced slightly growing up all came to the surface, and I was very depressed.
SPEAKER_01:I would even probably I'm sure some of it was seeded and coming to the surface, but probably a lot of it started then.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, definitely.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, sir. And so you end up in a depressed state.
SPEAKER_05:So then I went on a five-month bender and drank every single day, drank alcohol. Um I just hated the headspace that I was in, and that was the only way that I knew um to just help and get out of it. And I would smoke weed and do all of those things that you do when you're in high school and you're not loving the Lord, and when you could just easily access it.
SPEAKER_01:And it covered for you, it was it was also covering that pain or depression, escaping.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir. So then um May 20, so that was January 2022. May 24th, 2022, I was in a really sticky situation um with one of our really close family friends. He worked for my dad. Um, he had dated one of my cousins who were very close. He was a little bit older than me. Um, and him and my cousin had just broken up, and I was like, oh, that's interesting, but I didn't really care too much about it. And then he texted me one day and was like, Hey Katie, do you want to um meet up and talk about your cousin? I want to get back with her. And I was like, sure, I guess. Like, I don't know what to do. And he was like, I also have alcohol, and I was like, Oh, I'll be there. And so, because I wasn't old enough to buy alcohol, so I was always just getting it from someone else. And then that night I went with him and he sexually assaulted me. And later that night he attempted suicide. And so he shot himself in the head.
SPEAKER_01:And so let's let's pause.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:That was a lot.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, it is a lot to think about and a lot to say.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I know the stories, I know the intricacies of the story. Katie basically lives with us.
SPEAKER_06:Uh yes, I do. It's great.
SPEAKER_01:She's she's Laylee, my daughter's roommate. There's three of those gals that live together in a house. But because home is so far away, Florida home, and and college is an hour and a half from here, that this is where she kind of bases on the weekends.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And then stays with us in the summer. Um so anyway, all I had to say, Katie's like family, and I and I know, and JB's like family, and it's kind of this is for us, we kind of know all the ins and outs of this. I want to make sure people listening to ESR get. So this older cousin who we will not name, right? Um, he gets he comes over, gets you. Y'all gonna go supposedly talk about or this older guy who's dating your cousin.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:Y'all gonna talk about this thing, and he he works for my dad.
SPEAKER_06:Your dad.
SPEAKER_01:So he's a very familiar person in your life. He brings alcohol.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:You get in a car with him, start drinking.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:So you get you tipsy, yes, sir.
SPEAKER_06:You're feeling feeling good at this point.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Y'all, y'all end up, and I won't go into all the details here, but there's a point where you're in this vehicle together, you leave the vehicle and you're in a retail facility in a store, and you're trying to figure out how do I get out of this.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:Because he at this point he had advanced on you.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:So you get out of the car, you get into the into the store. But but but you're you're not at the house.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:You got no way to get home. No way to get you're just stuck with this guy. So you end up back in the car demanding that he take you home.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:And that's when hit the assault happens.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir. So then we go back to the car and then he assaults me um sexually. And but nothing like that had ever happened to me before. You know, I'd committed sexual sin, but no sexual sin in that way had been committed against me.
SPEAKER_01:Um which I think is an important, and I keep interrupting you, but one of the things that we've worked through with Katie and that I think a lot of young women struggle with is there's a difference in in acting in rebellion and and or just having fun and and living a lifestyle uh that's like sexually promiscuous or that doesn't align with what God's called us to in scripture and passages, like in First Thessalonians where it says abstain from sexual immorality. But but having someone do something to you, even if because one of the things you struggle with was, okay, I was drinking, so was this my fault? Did I put myself in this situation? That's not how this works.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um when when a man sexually assaults a girl or a woman, there's no should I have this or should I have that. You can second guess should you have been in that car. That's not the point. The point is, we've worked through this and you're in a good headspace with this now, but we had to really work through. Well, no, no, you were assaulted. It doesn't matter what the police say, doesn't matter what his attorney says, doesn't matter what the public opinion is. You got in a car, he assaulted you, you resisted, you said, no, this is not, I don't want this to happen. And he assaulted you.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And I want the reason I bring it out like that is there's girls that are gonna listen to this and women that deal with past guilt because they're like, Well, it's really my fault. I mean, we deal with kids that are that were sexually assaulted when they were five, six, seven years old that wrestle with this and they're like, Well is it my fault? I let him do it. And and so it's important, I think, in the healing and restoration process to recognize, no, I did I make poor decisions? Yeah, and I can receive grace and forgiveness for that, but I was sexually assaulted.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And that's never okay.
SPEAKER_06:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:There's not a situation where that's okay.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So he assaults you in the car.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:And then what?
SPEAKER_05:So then he that happens, and at this point, you know, I'm weeping, and it was horrible, and I'm just like begging to go home, and I'm like, please just take me home, please just take me home. And so he drives us back home. He's like he's drunk.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_05:Also, yes, sir. At this point, I feel completely sober. I could recall these events as if it happened two minutes ago. Um, but I think he was still very intoxicated. Um, and obviously my blood levels were showing signs of intoxication, but it was all just so vivid. But so I'm thankful I didn't drive home. But he drove us home and we were flying down 66, which is a road um in my town, uh highway, and we he pulls into his house. At this point, it's about 11:30 at night. I remember getting in the car with him at about eight or nine, and so we had been together for a few hours, and he pulls into his driveway, I grab all of his stuff, all of his beer cans, and throw them out the window, back out and leave. And I don't know where I'm at. It's the middle of the night in the sticks of Florida, and I'm like, okay, and I've never been to his house before, and so I pull out and then I'm going and I see headlights behind me. I had during this time, I had called one of my friends um to come pick me up, and she was like, Okay, I'll send my mom. Because at this point, graduation had just happened, and the friend that I had called was also at a party drinking, and so she had called her mom to come get me, and I saw headlights behind me, and I was like, Okay, perfect. And it was that guy, and he had followed me and pulled me off of the road, and I was like, See, what is going on?
SPEAKER_01:You had driven to begin with.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:You had picked him up, and after this, you take him home, then he gets in his vehicle and comes back.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir. Okay, and then I'm like freaking out, and I tell him that I'm going home, this person's coming to pick me up, and so I pull back onto the road, and he does that one more time, and then we see headlights coming towards me, and it was my friend's mom who had come to get me, and so then he left. And so then my friend's mom drops me back off home, and my parents are freaking out because they can see that I'm very disheveled, very distraught, crying, and they're like, Katie, what has happened? And I don't really know what is going on, and so I'm trying to protect myself, but also that guy, because my dad would have killed him, you know. And so they're I'm like, Hey, I was just with this guy, but nothing happened, obviously lying. And they're like, Okay, my dad was like, I'll just call him because he works for me. And I was like, Oh, okay. And I'm sitting in my living room, like shaking like this, and the phone rings, it's on speaker, it's just m me, my mom, and my dad. The phone rings, no answer. The phone rings again, no answer. I'm like, I'm I'm clear, I'm I'm doing good. The phone rings a third time, it answers.
SPEAKER_01:Your dad calls the third time and he keeps calling.
SPEAKER_05:And so it answers, and it's that guy's dad on the phone. My dad's name is Justin, and over the phone, he's like, Justin, I in a panic. Justin, I don't know what to do. My son just shot himself in the head, and there's blood everywhere. And I hear that and I don't cry anymore. I don't know what to do. And in that moment, I became so numb. Like all the depression I'd felt, I don't feel it anymore. Any sense of emotion or feeling is gone, and I think my life is over. And so that night, as you can imagine, was very hectic. At this point, we assumed that he was dead naturally, and I don't remember the next two weeks after that point. Um, I do know that I had struggled within those two weeks with self-harm because I just didn't know I couldn't feel anything. I didn't know what to do. I was just in such a dark head space, and that was really rough. Um and so at this point, there's a few people reaching out to me because the friend that I had called, she was at a party, so she knew that this was happening. So this kind of got out a little bit. So people were texting me asking like what happened. I was so overwhelmed. And so I had resulted resorted to self-harm um because of that.
SPEAKER_03:And so I would also add, for the most part, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the community kind of swarmed around this guy and was like, oh, poor so-and-so. Definitely let's start a GoFundMe. Yeah, like kind of swarmed around him and supported him. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Because a lot of people didn't know they just know this guy tried to kill himself, right?
SPEAKER_05:Which is valid. And at the time, I was like, okay, should I feel sorry for him? Because so many people are, which yes, like death is never good. And even as a non-believer, I knew that death was not what we were made for. And so I there was just so many things that were going through my head. And so then that was all happening. And one of my good dear friends, Morgan Dickey, she actually worked here this past summer. She's great. Shout out, Morgan. I love you. But she had invited me to this church camp, not Snowbird. It was more of a conference. Um So now this is like May, June, like the middle of June. And this has just happened to me. She invites me to this conference called CIY Christ in Youth in Knoxville, Tennessee, I believe, where Johnson is that school. Um and I go because I have nothing else to do. I feel so lonely, all of these things. And there was a sermon on forgiveness, and I was like, oh, that's interesting. I've never like heard the gospel preaching this way. And I immediately was like, wow, like I am a sinner, and like my sin has led me down paths of destruction, and this is horrible. But I'm like asking the Lord for forgiveness for me, but I also need to extend forgiveness to that person who did that to me. Um just the same as I sin every day. The sexual sin I had committed, the lies I've told, the drunkenness I had fallen into, the Lord is punishing that the same as he punishes what that guy did to me. And so to him, there's no levels. Obviously, there's different consequences for our sin. And so that night, and McKenzie Birch was also there who is getting married to Dawson soon, who worked this past summer and interned here, I believe. She was there. So I talked to Mackenzie about it, and she faithfully shared the gospel with me that night. And that night I decided to pursue the Lord and to give my life to him. And that is how I was saved, thankfully. Um, and I look back now at the Lord's sovereignty, and if something that catastrophic had happened to me, I don't know if I ever would have came to a point of brokenness to recognize my sin against the Lord. And so looking back now, I'm grateful. Um, so that's a long, a slight long-winded story of that year or the six months.
SPEAKER_01:That was in June when you gave your life to Christ. And then you were at Snowbird the next month.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:In July.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir. And so then I came to Snowbird again. And at this point, I love the Lord.
SPEAKER_01:You're a you're a new believer at that point.
SPEAKER_05:Brand new believer.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_05:Still pretty traumatized from what happened.
SPEAKER_01:And and if I'm not mistaken, when you came to Snowbird, this guy was still in a coma.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir. He was still in a coma. So I had no idea.
SPEAKER_01:You're still in the middle of all of it.
SPEAKER_05:And so I had Emma Jones, uh, now Emma Larson, love her, shout out Emma. Um, and she was my staff member. And at this point point, I I was still struggling with self-harm, and I would just saw her guidance on it. And and she was faithful to share the gospel with me again, and I'm so grateful. And she had to report what had happened to my church. And at the time I don't think Red was the the youth pastor. He wasn't. I think his name was Jerry Patterson. And I hadn't even been attending this church for the past six months, so I didn't really know him.
SPEAKER_01:You just came to Snowbird with him.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01:One thing for listeners to understand at Snowbird, our staff are trained where if they receive information from a student, yeah, that that has to do with any kind of criminal activity, especially if that kid's been is is sharing with them, hey, I was assaulted, or there was this sexual abuse, or there was this, you know, my my it's tricky because we we have mandatory reporting, but we've learned, we have a system for how we do that. We don't just, it's not just a cold black and white, go report it. There's a process we walk through so that we're we're above the law, or we're not above the law, what do you call it? Compliant with the law. We're not above, we're like, we're not gonna live above the law. We're gonna we're gonna be compliant with the law, but within the parameters the law gives us, we're gonna really try to guard and protect how we do this for this kid's sake. And so we we report mandatory reporting, we've got a process where we fill out um a report. And so when Emma would have heard this from you, she would have said, Okay, uh how do I take care to minister to this young lady, but also make sure this is being handled in a in a legally appropriate manner.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Because if this guy did it, because at this point she might not know has this been has he been charged? Is there well the so this happens all the time at Snowbird, but in this case, it's like, well, has he been charged? Oh, wait, he's in a coma because he tried to take his own life the night that he that this assault occurred.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:So it got really complicated really quick.
SPEAKER_06:It's very complicated.
SPEAKER_01:And then I would just add, uh the s the the student pastor had left the church since the previous summer.
SPEAKER_05:I think so.
SPEAKER_01:And so the the man that was bringing students, awesome brother, I love him, he's a good friend of mine, but he wasn't a student pastor, he was uh he's actually former he spent twenty-two years in special operations. He's the dude you want on your team. Yes. But these are circumstances that are difficult to navigate, and I think he was overwhelmed by it.
SPEAKER_05:I'm sure. I mean, I was overwhelmed by it, so I get it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So our staff member goes to him. He's been a youth pastor, an interim youth pastor for less than six months. Right. He's in his 40s.
SPEAKER_05:And I don't even know him very well.
SPEAKER_01:You don't know him. So yeah, it it's a hard situation at this point for a guy like that. But um to his credit, he he and I talked and we get involved in these situations and and try to not just help that student, but figure out how do we help this church minister to this student. And but I can still remember all this going down.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, it was crazy.
SPEAKER_01:This would have been 2022. I yes, sir. At this point, yes, sir. Yeah, so three years ago.
SPEAKER_05:Emma reports it, and at this point, I'm like, oh, that sucks. That's sad. Like now people know this about me. And not even the assault, because I knew people had kind of known about that already, but just that I was self-harm harming, and that I felt super shameful about. Um, and so I felt a little bit hurt by that. But now looking back back, and even like a day after that happened, I was so grateful to Emma for that. And I think I had talked to Brooke, she just got married. Um, what was her last name? Mitchell was her last name at the time.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's Colin's name.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, and I just saw her at the Christmas party, and I had talked to her, and she's like, you know, Katie, you're gonna be all right. Like it will be okay. And I was like, okay, uh that that's good with me. And then did I talk to you that week, Brody? And so Ebony, funny enough, was there at the time, and we had kept in contact, and she was like, Do you want to talk to Brody? And I was like, sure, I don't really know him, but yeah. And we talked, and I remember you saying, and now this is like my motto, but you know, Katie, if this guy does wake up, you're just gonna have to pull your big girl panties on and get to work. And I was like, Okay, I'll do that. And so I left Snowbird that week and was pursuing the Lord. I had started going to a different church when that Mackenzie Birch went to and started joining an accountability group. It was like a small group, and started really pursuing the Lord as I knew best and being discipled. And then I think it was either in September or October when that guy he actually woke up and I was like, oh, I don't really know what to do with all of this now. And slowly, by the grace of the Lord, I'm honestly so thankful, he started to regain function physically and mentally and cognitively. But he then started to reach out to girls my own age again around like December time.
SPEAKER_01:And let me let's pause here again from our side, how we deal with this. Uh by the way, I would not have used the word panties, I would have used the word britches. I think I think you girls use that word. I don't use the word when I'm talking to teenage girls, okay. This is true. Uh so just for clarity, I would have said you gotta pull your big girl britches up. Um but what we were talking about there was okay, Katie, I need you to be brave and we're gonna support you. But we gotta we this guy will do this again. So there's gonna come a point where you're gonna need to be strong and courageous and do the right thing to make sure this is addressed. And so while he was in that coma, uh-huh, you had a little bit of a weird, but it's the only only situation like this I've ever dealt with. And we've dealt with thousands of abuse and assault situations where the dude's in a coma. Now we've dealt with situations where the offender is now dead.
SPEAKER_04:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I'm I met a lady, little and I counsel a lady one time who comes up to us and she says, Can I talk to y'all? We sit down outside of the coop and she said, uh, she said, I've never got this off my chest. And this lady's like our age. She might have been older than us. This was 10, this is probably 15 years ago. And she was probably then in her 40s or 50s.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:When she was like 14, her stepdad had sexually assaulted her so many times, and he would physically beat her mom. And one day he assaulted her, and then the mom tried to intervene, and he's beaten the mom, and this girl goes and gets a shotgun out of the closet and shoots him from behind. He's standing over the mom. He's beat her, knocked her down, and she walks up behind him and shoots him between the shoulder blades. She's like, she was like 15.
SPEAKER_03:I never told anyone.
SPEAKER_01:Um, no, no. It had been prosecuted, but she's now 50.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:So nobody in her immediate world knew this story. I mean, it's you know, this had happened in another state when she was a young girl. She had then That's wild. She had gone through abuse, addiction, multiple baby daddies. Like she had a rough life and then got saved when she's like in her 30s, and then got a new start and was like really plugging at this church. But a lot of people didn't know her story. But I remember work as a one of those times where you're working through something with somebody where it's like kind of a what if. Yeah, because he's dead. Right. He's gone. There's how do we get closure? I can't I can't forgive him for what he did to me, and I can't ask him to forgive me for what I did to him. And so learning how to let those things go into the grace of God. And one of the things we would we'll work through when we're dealing with a victim who doesn't have a way of addressing it with their uh attacker or assaulter or terror, the person that terrorized them is we talk about how important it is to gain a high view of the sovereignty of God and a high view of the justice of God. And you know, we're recording this two weeks before Christmas. I don't when people listen to this, it'll be after Christmas. But anyway, we're recording this during the Christmas season, and we've just I taught through that. We just had an episode where we talked through uh Isaiah 9, and in Isaiah 9, Isaiah says, of the kingdom that that Jesus is gonna establish, there will be no end to justice and peace. So for you, where what we've had to work through, and you're in a healthy place with this, doesn't mean you're out of the woods and you still struggle. Right. But you understand God's going to put all wrongs to justice.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_01:He's gonna bring peace, he's gonna and he's gonna do that by making everything right. And that means he's gonna punish evil ultimately and eternally. And it's hard to process. Sometimes it's hard to get your mind around that when there's no way to immediately address it.
SPEAKER_06:Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Does this person just get to go free? Right. Does this person just get to go through life?
SPEAKER_03:Even I feel like we might talk about this later, but you have a direct picture of like the earthly justice system. Yeah. Because like I said, we might talk about this later, but you have taken this to court and it's been pushed off and shoved aside, and you know, but then it it is so hopeful to look at scripture and say, okay, regardless of if I'm justly served on this earth, I know that I am eternally like justice will eternally be served to me, to that man, to everyone who has like wronged you or assaulted you or like whatever it is. Exactly. And that's like the ultimate justice, you know.
SPEAKER_06:Exactly.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I remember like in that conversation with you, being like, I had never been told up until that point that everything would be okay. And in my tiny brain, I was like, well, it doesn't feel like it. And but I because the Lord had saved me and his Holy Spirit was in me, I was able to discern, okay, everything may not be okay here in this lifetime, but it will one day when my body's glorified and raised with the Lord's.
SPEAKER_01:And in that moment, sometimes what you need to hear is, hey, you can you can be okay. You're gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_05:Right, like I can get through this. This will be all right.
SPEAKER_01:We're gonna be with you. People are gonna be with you.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:You're gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, exactly. Um, but and so then um we started pressing charges on him once he started to reach out to girls my age again. And my birthday like reach out to like flirt, yes, type of thing. Exactly. And so at this point, I'm now 17. He's either 20, he's either 19 or 20, I'm not certain um with the timeline of his birthday or anything like that. But he was still reaching out to minors, and I found that disgusting. And so did my parents. And I prayed a lot about it, sought counsel on it, um, with the woman that was discipling me at the time. And we were all like, all right, we'll go forward with this. And so we did, and every court date that would come, it was so triggering. And I I don't think my heart was prepared enough for it, but the Lord gave me strength in those moments. And when a court day would come and I had to like recall or remember it all, or when I had to be depositioned for it. Um it was horrible and so hard. And being back home, there were so many things that would remind me of that instance, you know. And I s really struggled with suicidal ideology at the time because it it was just replaying in my head all the time. And I didn't want to resort to alcohol anymore because obviously that screwed me over. And so I just sought the Lord in each of those moments, and he faithfully gave me or gave me strength, and I'm just really grateful for that. And looking at the Lord's sovereignty there, um, in those winter months when we first started pressing charges, the Lord convicted me and was like, hey, you should apply for Snowbird. And I was like, Okay, on the element team, it was transitioning between servant team and element um that year when I had applied. And so I applied and somehow got in. And and I really think a lot of it was because of the doctrine that had been instilled in me previously, and I was now studying the word faithfully at the time. And so court dates came and then they went and they came and they went, and it was all in pre-trial, um, which really s really sucks at times. Um, but then in twenty twenty-three, uh because I had gone in the snowbird, I came and served on element that year.
SPEAKER_01:Would have been between your junior and senior year.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir. And so I just had finished my junior year and I went to camp or came to camp and served on element. It was so great. And the most growing summer of my entire life. And I encourage if there are any high schoolers listening, you should apply. Even the application is so growing. And I came and I had told Nikki and Morgan about what had happened, and they were like, oh, that's not good. And I think they had already like previously known through my application, and but I we sat down and talked about it, and it was super helpful.
SPEAKER_01:And Nikki uh we'll have her on NSR sometime in 2026. Nikki has her master's in Christian counseling, and she is she wears several hats at Snowbird. Um she carries the the bulk of counseling responsibilities, especially with women and girls, but then she also um she oversees the entire element program, which is our leadership mentorship uh program for for next generation leaders. And so we're training and equipping and growing high school kids that we want to develop as leaders. Anyway, Nikki oversees all of that. There's 20 girls, 20 guys, 40 students in that program every summer, a staff of about seven people. Nikki oversees that. Um JB leads element with Nikki. So uh another yeah, JB wears a bunch of hats. She's not just the voice and face of NSR, she wears about 10.
SPEAKER_06:Also part of Egg Shout Out. That's right. Shout out to Egg.
SPEAKER_01:Egg is the name of these Knuckleheads small group. My daughter is also part of. Um so uh all that uh just to clarify who Nikki and Morgan are, Morgan works the element. And so very faithful. So anyway, yeah, go ahead and continue.
SPEAKER_05:And so I'm sharing this with them, and it was so helpful. And I the discipleship that I had sought back home, um, I had never been discipled before and until I became a believer. And this lady in my church at the time was discipling me, and it ended up being sinful, and she ended up sinning um sexually against me as well. And I had no idea that it was even bad because, like I said, I hadn't been disciple before, and I was just reading the scriptures for the first time to even see what true discipleship was, and I didn't see a lot from what I was reading of like girl and woman discipleship. I was just like, oh, the 12 disciples, you know, and like how Paul is just great at that. So I never really saw the boundaries for that, but she had crossed them. Um, and I was 17 at the time and that and she w was 32 at the time, married with kids. And so when I came to camp, um, as I was telling Nikki and Morgan this and just being honest with where I was at, they were asking me about discipleship and like how I was being discipled. And I told them, and they were like, that's not good. And I was like, Oh, not this again. And I remember talking to Rob in this building, and he was like, Yeah, Katie, that's grooming 101. And I was like, Are you serious?
SPEAKER_01:I can't catch a break, I can't catch a break.
SPEAKER_05:But as much as that situation sucked and was sinful, the Lord used that woman in my life, regardless of the sin that she had committed against me. And she did point me to the scriptures, even though like I'll never talk to her again. And like, and I've forgiven her in my heart and all of these things. But because of that, going back home, I couldn't go back to that church, and it was already a messy situation.
SPEAKER_01:And so your senior year.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir. So going into my senior year, I played soccer. Um, I was like, Oh, all right, I'll go back home, it will be great. And then I realized, oh, it won't be great, and it will be really hard. And I don't know if I can do it. And if I had gone back home, the Lord would have given me strength. But by his sovereignty again, I applied to intern here and got in.
SPEAKER_01:And so Which that is very much an exception, just so you Know we don't bring high school seniors into our year-round intern program.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, and I wouldn't honestly advise it. It was very hard. I took all my classes online. I had seven more. I did dual enrollment and I had seven classes online that I had to do. And during while working a full-time job in ministry, already hard, as we all know. And so that was really hard and very difficult. But the Lord allowed it to be done.
SPEAKER_01:You grew like crazy.
SPEAKER_05:I grew like crazy.
SPEAKER_01:And you were surrounded by people, you were in a safe place of healing and growth.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly. And so that year we were still continuing um judicially with that case, and we're still in pretrial to this day. It's crazy. Um I know it's ridiculous. But the court dates would go and they would come and they would go and they would come. And my community group leader, Riley Shannon, shout out, love her. I had started going to therapy um with a Christian counselor here, separate from Nikki, even though Nikki was still intently pouring into me. Um, but I had started going um here in Murphy, and Riley would come with me, and it was so helpful and so growing. And my brain was just being filled with truths of the scriptures literally every day. And I started to put away childish things and I started to grow a lot. And then yeah, that year was just great. It was a cold winter, and I don't do very good in the cold, obviously, but it was great, and then summer came.
SPEAKER_01:You do you do great in the cold when you're at my house.
SPEAKER_05:By that farm inches in front of the wood heat. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:I can't step outside.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly. And so that year went and it came, and it was so fun and so good. And then summer came and it was great, obviously. And I met that's where JB and I became very close, and the twins.
SPEAKER_03:That's not true. Remember when I came for one week in 23? Oh, yes, and I didn't know who Katie was really. I just walked into the coop and I was like, I need somebody, I need shorts. I need somebody's shorts right now.
SPEAKER_05:And I was on element, I was like, I have some shorts.
SPEAKER_01:Because you weren't working that summer.
SPEAKER_03:No, I just came for that one week, and then I I don't know if I like ripped my pants or I don't know why I'm getting shorts.
SPEAKER_05:It was like I need shorts right now.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, I was like, I have shorts.
SPEAKER_05:I was like, I'll give you some shorts.
SPEAKER_03:That's the first time we met.
SPEAKER_05:But then but then summer of 24, we became very close. Uh with and at this point I was already really close with Laylee and your family. And Laley and JB were very close, and then the twins showed up. And Annabelle and Laura shout out. And um, so through that, I had prayed so much when I was back home for just really solid, godly women to be in my life, to be my friends. And I had found that while interning. And then when the summer came, the Lord was gracious enough to put us all in the same place at the same time. And I've never grown more in friendships than I have, grown closer to the Lord by friendships than with the friends that I have now, and so I'm really grateful for that. But then the summer ended and it was a really good summer, and Laylee and I go to the same school. Um, we live with Lana Ray, she's great. Um, she also led element this summer. Um, and I honestly think that was one of the gr most growing years of my life. I had been in such fruitful community, and then I went to school, and I was like, all right, I have to do this on my own. And I the Lord gave me strength to do it, and I'm so grateful. And I learned a lot that year about myself, about how to do ministry, um, separate from being separate from working in ministry, but ministries are life, and it was so great. And the Lord called me back to camp the next summer, and I came, and that's when I did the spoken word.
SPEAKER_01:This past summer. One thing one thing that was crazy this last year is that that counselor we always recommend. So Nikki's not licensed or certified or anything like that. And so our approach to counseling, we don't have a certified or licensed counselor on staff. So what we do is what I would call pastoral counseling. Nikki does a phenomenal job with that. And we've struggled for years to find a biblical counselor. There's so opinions when when it comes to Christian counseling, and they are s there are so many divided opinions on this. Even within our church, like within our team of elders and pastors, we don't all agree on on what's the best approach and the best type or style or form of counseling. There's different opinions on this. For me, my opinion is, and I think we would all agree on this if if it can if it can get a person what they need, just pastoral shepherding counseling is the is is the first line, and that's the most effective. And you receive that from a lot of people at Snowbird, from my wife, from Little, from Nikki. Um But there are times where we need somebody that that understands the mind and the brain and the for instance, the effect of having a traumatic experience sexually and what that does to the brain or the way you're wired, and especially when you're young. And again, different opinions on all of this. Um I'm still not even sure what I believe about some things as far as what's most effective. But I know this when a person is sexually assaulted, especially a young person, there is damage done cognitively and emotionally that has to be addressed. So we find this lady after years of not been able to find a good local I mean, we had wrestled at Snowbird for 25 years trying to find a good counselor we could trust. We had tr we had tried so many different people. We had tried uh online Zoom.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_01:We just we never could but and we found this lady. She was right here under our noses. I mean, she grew up here, phenomenal, incredible gift to this ministry, and she got brain cancer and died.
SPEAKER_06:I know it was crazy.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, crazy. So your life, I one of the things that we that that I'm aware of, but I think when you're super aware of something, you don't and you don't want to be a victim. Right. You don't have a victim mentality, you almost can sometimes forget, man, some stuff has happened.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Because you got the thing that happened.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you got the boyfriend thing that happened. Right. Then you got the thing that happened in the car, then you got the the girl thing, and now the thing with the counselor. And so I want people to understand you're not always gonna just like you might think you're out of the woods and you're not. You know like we live in a broken fallen world, and this is where community and encouragement from other believers and people that believe in you, but more importantly, believe in the power of the Holy Spirit in your life. We live in a in a world right now where there's all these catchwords like safe space, trauma, triggered words that we use and they have a place, but they've become sort of buzzwords for agendas and movements. And the reality is uh a sexually traumatic experience breaks a person in a way that nothing else breaks that person.
SPEAKER_06:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:And I remember I remember referencing something that had happened to me as a kid one time, and I don't talk I've not talked about that very much. Um, and I mentioned it like on week 10 was that. So 23 of that summer. And that created a lot of conversation for us, and I think for you to go, oh, wait a minute. Okay, because what happens is people that are abused or assaulted, they tend to feel isolated and alone. And when you can see, oh, there are other people that have been through things that they've grown through and exactly and and they've not only survived, but they're thriving and flourishing, and you know, Rob Conti's testimony is crazy what he's been through, what he went through as a child, from physical abuse to leaving home with his mom and s sneaking out and getting away, and then right into the arms of a sexual abuser, a man who abused him as a boy, and and uh who was supposed to be a safe, healthy relationship. And there's a lot of it, and it's scary and infuriating how much of it happens. But if Satan is a god of confusion, right, he's he's a master of confusion and manipulation, um whether it's pagan idolatry or pagan worship or sexual sin, Satan uses sexual deviance and and abuse to disrupt because it is such a spiritual experience.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly. And I feel like for me, each time something had happened or anything like that, it was a blatant, although all of those things were horrible, vicious physical attacks, it was tenfold on how the enemy attacked my identity and tried to separate me from the Lord. And that's just something I was thinking about while I was driving over here from the house. I was like, wow, like my identity is in Christ in Christ alone and what he's done for me on the cross and when he rose, and his spirit lives within me, but for so long, and even as a believer, like I had struggled with where my identity lied because I hated, hated acting or seeming as a victim, even though legally that is on paper, I am a victim of this sexual abuse, but spiritually the Lord has freed me from that, and so that's just not true anymore. And so I think what you're saying is absolutely right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you're a conqueror. Right. When when you know scripture says we overcome the evil one by the word of our testimony and by the blood of the Lamb in Revelation or in Romans 8, where it says through Christ we overwhelmingly conquer. Um, we're more than conquerors. Um Scripture says, Greater is he that's in me than he that's in the world. And these are these are positive biblical truths that declare victory doesn't mean you weren't a victim to an assault.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly. It's not diminishing like what happened to you, but it's exalting your hope and your freedom and your eternity. Yeah, what the Lord has done.
SPEAKER_01:And what we attack here that y'all have ingrained and drilled in your head from working at Snowbird is we're not gonna have a victim mentality.
SPEAKER_06:Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:It's one thing to say, yeah, I was a victim to a sexual assault.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:I do not have a victim mentality. Exactly. I have a conqueror's mentality, I have a winner's mentality, I have a we're gonna win the day and we're gonna do it for God's glory and for our good.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:And that's what we've worked hard on with you, and that you're you're embracing.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I remember now transitioning to the spoken word. I I love poetry and I've am not very creative artistically, um, but I love to write. Um, and even at a very young age I did. And I remember once just writing, I am no longer a victim of these things because Christ is the ultimate victor. And I wrote that in the spoken word this past summer, and it's so true. Like being a victim or playing the victim is not gonna get you anywhere. And something I struggled with that the enemy like used that good truth. Um, he used that truth and kind of distorted it like he does in the garden um or in the wilderness uh when Jesus is being tempted. I was like, Oh, I'm not a victim of this. I don't need to talk about it, I don't need to work through it. And I think you and Little have been like, no, Katie, you're going to be a victim by this if you don't address it and don't confront it with scripture and with good community.
SPEAKER_03:Well, scripture is clear, even like everything that's brought into the light is made whole. Exactly. And so if the devil couldn't get you with all the things, like all the physical things that have been done to you, then he's gonna try to get you with like, well, no, it doesn't matter. Like you know what I mean, like keeping it in the dark.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, exactly. So true. And that is something I am grateful that I just have such strong men and women in my life to point out and be like, no, Katie, like you should talk about this and to work through it and not but not to dwell there. And so that was really encouraging. And yeah, this summer was crazy with this fucking word, probably the hardest thing I've ever done, and spiritually so taxing because I've never shared the gospel with that many people um before. And if you want to give a little bit of context.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so one thing we don't do at Snowbird, we don't give the microphone to to to people to just give like a testimony.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And that's pretty testimony, testifying testimonies is pretty common in a lot of churches. I grew up in a church where we would have like testimony services where uh it might not even end up with a sermon that night. People would get up and testify. And it can be a very charismatic experience, and I'm not throwing off on it, but we learned early on um, okay breather, funny story, quick funny story. Early on, we learned we're not gonna do testimonies, and here is why, ladies.
SPEAKER_06:Oh gosh.
SPEAKER_01:Summer of of uh 2001. So this is our third, our fourth full summer. I mean our third full summer. Fourth summer we had students. Okay, yeah, that's right. So we had this church that said, and back then we, you know, we were doing good to have 30 or 40 people. A week with a hundred students would be a big week. And we this guy calls me, he's a friend of mine, Joe Strange, awesome dude. Love, love that brother. Ann Tuttle, who's been one of our most listened to episodes this year, the the two parts with Ann. Joe was her student pastor. She talked a lot about Joe. Really faithful brother, love him so much. He was the student pastor at this church. The senior pastor of the church said, I don't want you to go back to Snowbird. Um, I want to do like a family camp. And so they were they weren't gonna get to come back. Well, we ended up, crazy long story short, we just said, do your family camp at Snowbird. So the whole church came. Okay. Whole church comes, we're supposed to do like a kids' program. The only time we ever tried this, we realized, okay, you can only be good at one thing.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:We are not a family camp. There are those out there. Yeah. There's people that do it. That's not what we do.
SPEAKER_06:Right, right.
SPEAKER_01:And so uh I remember at the end of that week, we had all their students in a in a room, and I I did the student stuff, and then Kahuna did the parents and adults, and then I don't remember how we managed the little kids, but um, I can't even remember now it's like. Go play in the creek. Go play in the creek, go catch crawled out. But I remember we're sitting in the metal building, which is where we used to do worship services. We would eat in there and do worship services in there. The old coop didn't exist. And this kid, this kid had this crazy testimony, he had shot himself in the head on accident. Not suicidal, but then there was an accident. So what happened was he was and there it was a it was a real suspicious. Ann Tuttle talked about that. Yeah, I remember you guys.
SPEAKER_03:That's wild. Well, she just said it and then we moved on, and I was like, wait. Yeah, so now I'll give some context.
SPEAKER_01:I should have that day probably. So the question was Did the kid try to kill himself or did the gun accidentally go off? And I don't know that it was ever determined. But this kid's at camp. I remember this kid's at camp and he's got like a really bad head scar, and like his eye is like there's you can tell he's been there's something he's been in an accident, and so I find out he's well, this kid got shot. And if I remember right, he was playing with a gun and it and and he shot himself in the in the like in the it went like in the cheekbone and out the top of the head right here. But didn't get up into his brain. He he survived, but it was in yeah, yes, it is good. Thankful for this not to laugh at this kid's horrible plight. But it was just I'd never been hanging out with a kid, and I was like, so tell me about the scar on your head. Because I'm real black and white with stuff like that. I've learned kids, a lot of times people wanted to talk. Yeah, this kid's got this really bad scar, and I said, Tell me what's up with the scar on your head. I want to know what story was is that because in my brain I thought this is from a childhood uh surgery, he was born with something. He said, he goes, I shot myself in the head. No way. And I was like, uh, do you care to elaborate on that? And so we start talking. The Lord had used this in his kid's life. So this kid was gonna stay the next, this is before we had element, before we had servant team. And this kid was gonna stay after that week. This was early in the summer, and we had something like servant team or element, which is our high school uh like kind of like leadership and training. And he was gonna stay the rest of the summer. And uh he had applied for that and got in. So I'm and he had told me about the headshot the summer before. Then he had applied to be on what is now become element. So so we're the last day of camp, we're like, we're gonna I'm gonna have a few kids share. And I used to do this occasionally, I would have a kid share.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:This kid takes the microphone. I had no idea that he was known for being promiscuous with the ladies. He goes, he's like fumbling around and grabs the microphone like he's a boss man like and says and goes into this thug voice, and he's like, a lot of y'all know me from from my accident, but a lot of y'all judge me because you say that I'm a hoe. He said that. Said I'm a hoe. Now, fortunately, it's just their church. Uh-uh. But then he says, and y'all know that I was with uh that I was with um Britney, uh-uh, and then I got with McKenzie, but y'all don't know, and he's and he's naming girls, and he's basically what he's saying is these girls are at fault, not me, because I was with the one and I remember I'm like the mic. I grabbed the mic away from his kidney.
SPEAKER_04:It's so funny.
SPEAKER_01:Well, at this point, girls are squalling and crying. The one girl's going out with her friends, and her mom goes out, and they're trying, and then this girl goes out. It was unreal. And I remember that day saying, We ain't never doing open mic, we ain't giving a kid a microphone.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, never.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so um that's insane. The other thing we've learned is things like drama and skits can be very effective, especially in the day in the in the era of AI, because if you do a video, a lot of times kids are not impressed or entertained by that. But there's been this full circle back to a live stage reaction. Kids are not used to that. People aren't used to that. So when somebody comes up and either acts something out or performs, people are drawn to it. And so what you did this past summer, and we had done a spoken word before, we've done a few of those. And a spoken word is it's it's a poetic uh recitation, a recital, um, but it's not normal poetry. Like you would think of a poem that you like when I was in school, I memorized some poems. Um I memorized a poem um stopping by woods on a snowy evening for for Kilby for her college graduation, and I quoted at her graduation party. I remember learning poems when I was in elementary school, you know, whatever. This is not that kind of poetry that you study in school. It's Um it's expressive, it's telling a story, it's using artistic expression and and sort of uh graphic expression. Right. And we've seen it be very effective, um, but it's also tricky because it can be really corny and hokey and cheesy. And so this past summer, Katie did a spoken word that she wrote and memorized that was to use y'all's terminology.
unknown:Fire.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, it was fire.
SPEAKER_01:It was like it was powerful. The Lord used it in the most powerful way, which it'll be linked to this episode. You'll be able to watch it and see it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I have blonde hair in that. So I promise it's a sweet.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, you did. I forgot about that.
SPEAKER_03:I also think it was kind of a switch up or like a bit of a shock for people who have come to Snurboard because uh most of the times we've done like an all-staff skit, very like um visually stimulating, like everyone's involved, you know, which are great. But this was literally just Katie standing on stage, and I think that was almost more powerful than if we had, you know, more visual effects or anything. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Um, yeah, and I remember so I'm the same way as you, Brady. Like, I'm pretty black and white. I'm not very emotional. I think the Lord is softening my heart in my recent days and where I have become a little bit more emotional, but yeah, you're pretty you're pretty tough. Yeah, yeah. I tried to be when it comes to um I uh remember because I knew what spoken words were, but I was I didn't know a ton about them. And I had watched a few of like Jackie Hill Perry like preparing, and I was like, okay, like I'm not as like theatrical as that. And I kind of was like, I don't want this to be very emotional. Like I want people to know what the Lord has done, and I don't want really want emotions tied to it because I don't want to manipulate anyone, I don't want it to seem as though the camp is trying to manipulate, and so I just simply recited it, and there were a few times where I was emotional saying it, which I think could have been helpful and could resonate to some um students, especially the girls I had, and I'm sure the boys um too. But I remember just kind of wrestling with like, I don't really want to perform this in that way, but I do want to effectively share the gospel to where it can relate to students, and it was crazy. Yeah, and it was very, very different.
SPEAKER_03:And it tied so well with our teaching topic for the whole summer.
SPEAKER_06:Romans eight.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and it just put it into like okay, yeah, we've been going through Romans eight and it's good, but then I'm hearing your testimony aligned with the words of scripture and how that's impacted your life. It was just so good.
SPEAKER_06:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:And the Lord used it even when your home church was here. Yeah, there is a uh a guy who's uh an investigator and a sheriff's deputy, his name's Will. Shout out to Will, he's a good friend. Uh I love that dude. And he said to me uh later that night, we're sitting around the fire, and he said, Man, I'm really impressed with and proud of Katie. Like the courage it's taken. He says, She's been through it, and the courage it took for her to do that. It was just cool to hear, because you've not been back home, you've been up here. And um the Lord even used it in their lives. Evidently, and they know more of the story. But I have people inevitably I would say to somebody, that's you know, that's Katie. Katie wrote that and memorized it, and that's her story, that's her testimony. And people are like, What?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Or they would say, No, who was the young lady that got up and and did the you know, it's funny to hear the poetry or the screen.
SPEAKER_06:Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Um and uh and it was always a really strong reaction when I would explain to somebody that's basically her testimony.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so encouraging. Yeah, um kind of on a smaller scale, too. I'll be careful to protect this girl's identity. Right. But there was a girl that was in my share group when I was a counselor, and she went through pretty much a very similar story as Katie, and then fast forward a couple years, she applied on staff, and then she was in Katie's fire team. And so even that is just such a cool moment.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that was really crazy. I love her so much, and we still keep in touch. I just saw her recently, and the way that I was able to effectively communicate without dwelling on those events through spoken word, through poetry, or however you want to say it, um, was so helpful. And we I would I wouldn't say I counseled her through that, but definitely pointed her to the Lord. And I mean, I learned so much from her through what she had gone through, and she just became one of our dear friends, and so she's great. And the Lord, like the Lord's sovereignty. I met that girl my previous summer when I was on element and JB was like, Hey Katie, you need to talk to this girl who like is in my um small group this week. And I was like, Okay, so then we would keep in touch, and then she applied and was in my fire team, and it was just crazy, yeah, and it was really cool.
SPEAKER_01:Orchestrates and brings those relationships together.
SPEAKER_03:Even now that you're saying that, I'm thinking about it, and it's like that summer, 23, I didn't work at King. Yeah, I had to finish up classes and stuff, but I came back just that week to work with their church to have that share group, to have that conversation, to connect Katie with that girl, even that it's just really cool. Yeah, that was wild God's sovereignty, you know. Yeah, crazy.
SPEAKER_01:And she grew like crazy this summer. Yeah. Um, only had a couple conversations with her, but yeah, she's great. Yeah, the Lord's definitely growing her.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, that's wild.
SPEAKER_01:Man, thanks for doing it. This is great. I when I said Katie the other day. Yeah, like two days ago. Three days ago. Can we interview you? Can I interview you me and JB sit down with you before the break? And I've been very sensitive. I don't I'm always careful not to exploit situations and with the wrong motive, or when there's still sensitivity to things that are ongoing. Yeah, yeah. Just always careful. And so I was just like, Yeah, are you comfortable doing it? Will you are you good with this? And you didn't bat an eye. I think you're at a point where it's like, yeah, you realize how the Lord has used it and will continue to use it, like the girl you're just talking about. Yeah. Um people's lives.
SPEAKER_05:So yeah, I remember you we were literally sitting on the couch and you're like, Hey Katie, when this is all over, do you want to like have me interview you for NSR? I was like, I'll do it tomorrow if you want. And I was like, it's just really something I really in my mind like submit to the Lord when I do like have opportunity to talk about it. I'm like, Lord, let this not be like self-centered or self-focused, but purely gospel driven. Like, don't let me or convict me if I have that motive to let it be self-centered. And so, yeah, it's just really talking about what the Lord's done. And one day I'll be gone and nobody will remember, but the Lord worked and is working.
SPEAKER_01:So Yeah, and and and I'll be gone and nobody will remember, right? Exactly. We're we're we're dust. We're what is man and and but then the question is what is man that you're mindful of? And son of man that you like God is mindful of us and he used our stories, and then the next generation their stories get used, and it's it's an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit through people's lives. And so God's gonna use it even when this is not the specific story he's using.
SPEAKER_04:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:He's gonna be using somebody who was affected by somebody who is affected by this story, and that's gonna go on and on.
SPEAKER_05:And that work will be eternal.
SPEAKER_01:It's eternal. So it it's when everything's burned up, yeah, like hay and stubble, hay wood and stubble, the Bible says, what's refined in the fire will be exactly the thing that has eternal significance, and this does. Yeah. Um, last thing, a fun story. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Um, I'm not gonna.
SPEAKER_01:There's stories I will not tell about y'all's small group.
SPEAKER_03:We would be in trouble.
SPEAKER_01:My daughter Laylee and these two knot heads and the twins.
SPEAKER_06:Love them.
SPEAKER_01:That's egg, right? Yes, that makes up egg. It's the name of their little group. No, there's things I'm not gonna tell. But uh last winter, this girl's from South Florida. Okay.
SPEAKER_06:No, bruh.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm at my house, it had snowed.
SPEAKER_06:This is insane.
SPEAKER_01:It's about 10 degrees outside. And I get a call from the Macon County Sheriff's Dispatch. Now, Macon County is the county west of us, but to get to Macon County, you gotta drive up into this, the Nanahala Mountains, you gotta go past Lake Nanahala Lake, across Warrior, and down into Franklin, and that's Macon over there. And but when you leave my house and you start up, when you turn left on Ginaluska, you lose phone signal. Immediately. Immediately. So three quarters of a mile from my house, you no longer have a phone.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:If you go up that road, you cross into Macon County, but you're only 15 minutes from Andrews and you're 45 minutes to an hour from Franklin. But if you call 911, Franklin is gonna respond. So anyway, I get a call.
SPEAKER_06:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01:And the dispatch, you did good though, because when you called Katie had had a wreck.
SPEAKER_06:Yes in the snow. I wrecked my vehicle.
SPEAKER_01:But when the lady calls me, she says, Hey, uh, is this Brody Holloway? Yes, ma'am. This is Macon County Dispatch. Are you I think she said, Are you responsible for for Miss Katie Hayes? And I said, Yes, ma'am, I am. It depends on what she did. I don't know. Uh maybe. Um she said, Katie's okay. Yes, but there's been an accident, but she's okay. And so that was good. Um but anyway.
SPEAKER_05:I knew to make sure that they told you that. You did because I told her and she said previously that this could be it was Katie and the twins.
SPEAKER_03:Katie and the twins. And I'll dub me and Laley as the responsible ones of the group. Who weren't more responsible. We're not even the moms of the group. But of course they went and did something stupid without me and Laley. Right. And they got themselves in a pickle.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and you went for four years, you were in the in the mountains at when you were in school at Carson Newman. Laley has grown up in these mountains.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Driving in, I taught her to drive in the snow. She grew up playing in the snow. And what it was, we had gotten snow, and they decided to go see the beautiful lake.
SPEAKER_03:That's dried up.
SPEAKER_01:That's dried up because they drained it in the winter. And yeah, anyway. It's so stupid. Oh, by God's grace, y'all could have died in the water. We could have died. That was crazy. Put a tree in the right place. No, literally. Went off the mountain. It was insane. Or you would have started rolling.
SPEAKER_06:It was insane.
SPEAKER_01:But I got up there and it was so cold. Oh, we were freezing. It was like single digits, zero to two degrees, somewhere in there. And they were freezing. Freezing. Cars broke down. It took how long for uh someone to respond.
SPEAKER_05:Like almost an hour.
SPEAKER_01:And then I got there five, ten minutes after the trooper. I got there before the rescue squad.
SPEAKER_06:It was horrible.
SPEAKER_01:By the time they dispatched, and then I got the call and went and I was wild. But I left my truck running, and I was like, y'all sit in a truck in the heat and I'll wait for the wrecker and I don't think I had cried because it was a pretty bad wreck.
SPEAKER_05:I don't think I had cried until I saw you and Laylee, and I broke down.
SPEAKER_03:I was like, please just give me a also the first instinct of you and all the twins is to not call 911, is to not find help. To take pictures and videos. Yeah, too. Which now I'm grateful because it's kind of funny to look at. No, they're wearing these paper thin sweatpants and a t-shirt.
SPEAKER_01:Left my house in her PJs basically to go see the snow.
SPEAKER_06:It was insane.
SPEAKER_01:The Lord protected you there.
SPEAKER_06:Yes. Thank God.
SPEAKER_01:When I called your dad, it was the same thing. I was like, Justin, Katie's good. She ain't hurt. That car is trash. Exactly.
SPEAKER_06:That was wild. Yeah. So funny. All right. Thanks. Love you. I'm proud of you. Appreciate you coming on. Anytime.
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