Staying Faithful in the FBI | The Sovereignty of God

Clay Hicks joins us again to talk through the hard-earned lessons that shaped his understanding of God’s sovereignty in the midst of chaos. From active shooter responses to years embedded with special operations, Clay shares how faith and humility kept him grounded when nothing was certain. We explore what it means to trust providence without surrendering responsibility and how Clay made decisions with a conscience anchored in something higher. This episode is a grounded conversation about moral clarity, justice, and the sovereignty of God on the front lines and in everyday life.

Staying Faithful in the FBI | Interview with Clay Hicks

No Sanity Stories | Gospel Hope Through Combat & Trauma pt. 1

25-Day Advent Bible Study

Please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help improve No Sanity Required and help others grow in their faith.

Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.

Chapters

• 0:00 Racing To The Navy Yard
• 2:20 Confusion, Command, And First Entry
• 6:40 Clearing Floors And Constant Breaching
• 12:30 Sensitive Breach And Survivors Found
• 15:10 How Breaching Rounds Actually Work
• 20:30 Processing Horror While Securing Scene
• 25:30 Theology, Empathy, And Coping
• 30:40 Early FBI Years And Hansen Fallout
• 36:30 Building The Military Liaison Model
• 42:00 From Warrants To SSE On Target
• 48:10 Earning Trust With Special Operations
• 54:00 First Missions And Trial By Fire
• 1:00:20 Lessons Brought Home To The FBI
• 1:05:40 Marja: Five Days In A Hot Fight
• 1:12:00 Opium, Heroin, And Explosives Cache
• 1:18:20 Roadside IED Hunters And Overland Ops
• 1:24:00 Preparing Heart And Mind For Combat
• 1:29:40 Romans 13 And Moral Guardrails
• 1:35:10 Providence At A Bullet-Pocked Window
• 1:41:10 Sovereignty, Justice, And Grace

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

So, okay, let's just start right here. Okay. Back up. You're 2013, the Navy Yard shooting. You're not in the Navy now. You're with the FBI. Yeah, so I'd I'd been in the FBI um maybe um maybe what uh 11 years at that point.

SPEAKER_01: 0:18

And so I'd been in the Washington field office for about four or five uh yeah, five years. Um and uh we're we're down quantico training. Actually, we had two groups. One was training in uh Maryland at the day uh on that day, and then the other group was training down at uh Quantico. And so we get the call that uh that the Navy Yard shooting has happened, right? And so this is 2013. Um and we all jump. It's obviously in our in our area of responsibility. Uh and so we go screaming up I-95, right? 110 miles an hour. I remember because my gut the governor on my uh on my suburban was sat at 110, and I kept hitting it and backing off, hitting it and backing off. And uh so we're we're running up there. There's probably 10 suburbans in line, and we're just flying at 110. And uh we get up there, come off the interstate, and uh get down into the Navy Yard, and they had the whole place locked down. And so they they didn't want us driving in, but they let us run in with all of our gear and guns, which is kind of weird, but whatever. A lot of confusion. There's always weird decisions that get made in in scenarios like that, and people just trying to do the best thing they can, but you know, sometimes it just doesn't make sense. So we all throw on all of our gear, everything we think we're gonna need for this, you know, because we're not gonna have our trucks near us. Um, and uh breaching gear, rifles, like the snipers bringing in their long guns and their, you know, and their CQB weapons and all kinds of different stuff. And so I don't remember how long we ran. It felt like forever with all that gear. Uh, but we ran in, got to the building. Um, as is always the case in these scenarios, uh, there's always reports of multiple shooters uh because different people see certain things from different vantage points, different perspectives. Somebody describes the shooter one way, another describes it a different way, and and you um, you know, you it sounds like they're two different people in the end, it's it's one. Um and so at this point, by the time we got there, there was all kinds of confusion as to who should be responding, who, you know, where where the people were coming from. No one at the time uh had really taken control and command of the scene. Uh, and so our senior team leader at the time basically did the you know, back of a trunk of a car type of, you know, command, setup command, began uh communication, uh establishing comms, all that stuff. And they had sent uh four guys from uh a couple of different agencies, which is exactly what you're supposed to do in an active shooter scenario, grab a couple of people and go. And they had finally, they had walked in and they had killed him. Uh, and we were coming in, we were coming in right on the tail end of that. But everybody thought there were multiple shooters based on the fact that he had shot people on at least three different floors. Don't quote me on that. It may have been more, but but it was at least that of the building. So, you know, people were were uh thought that it couldn't just be one guy. Uh so we came in and there had been some people who had already come in to try to clear some stuff. We brought everybody back out to just clean the slate and then methodically assigned uh clearing to to the build or clearing of the building. And so we went in, and unfortunately, one of the security guards on the initial entrance, uh, the shooter had come down and and killed him right there at the front door. And they had eventually, some friends of his had dragged him out. Uh, and so there was, of course, a you know a giant uh blood trail and and everything else. And so we're we're going through all that. We get up to the, I believe it was the third floor where where the initial shootings had taken place, you know, and we're literally having to step over bodies to get into the hallway and and everything. And uh we split our team to to take care of that floor. We were signed this floor, and by by floor, I mean a massive floor of a of an office building. And so this is the this is one of the buildings where there are any number of commands, Navy commands, military commands, different things like that. Um and so it's just office after office after office, door after door after door in this place, hundreds of doors. Uh, and they're all virtually all closed, many of them locked. And so because there was such a strong reporting of multiple shooters, we couldn't leave any space uncleared. And so uh I had brought in, you know, a breaching shotgun with all the all the as many rounds as I could carry. We had rams, we had uh hydraulic breaching equipment, we had all kinds of different things. We spread loaded across the teams or team members um uh and and ran in with all that stuff. And so we just began methodically working through that floor. Uh and um I have never breached so much in my life. Uh training days, I didn't breach that much. I think I breached for five straight hours. Oh my god. Because we cleared not only that floor, we cleared multiple other floors and all kinds of different things, but but we were clearing for about five straight hours. And I I ran out of I ran out ran out of shotgun shells because these these doors were, you know, inch and a half thick solid wood doors. And um our I want to say it was our first, it might have been our second door down the hallway. Um we made entry into an office space, and you can tell it you can tell some it was somebody in Porton's office. It was good size, you know, I don't remember exactly who it belonged to. Um, and there was a door off to the side. So me and a buddy of mine set up on the door, pounded on the door because we didn't want to use, you know, breaching shotguns and everything else. If there was a good guy in there, uh, and pounded on the door, repeatedly kind of announced ourselves, waited for either somebody to shoot at us or say, Hey, we're in here, you know, uh, and um didn't hear a thing. And so we decided I uh I breached the door. My buddy sat up on the door, he began clearing the door or clearing the space from outside the door. And uh all of a sudden he starts giving commands to someone and it kind of spooked me. Um and so I transitioned from breaching shotgun to my regular rifle and uh began calling these people out, and it ended up being, you know, some some members of the of the office there that had taken that hidden under a desk and all that other stuff, and of course was a little freaked out and kind of shocked that they were in there because I just breached this this door. Now, you do it in such a way that you're not gonna frag the whole room, you know, that everything kind of goes down at the floor right there at the at the base of the door, which is all fine, but still, you know, just I didn't like that. Um but anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 7:09

For clarity, when it when you're breaching, what you're talking about is you're using explosive, you're breaching that with explosive, with an explosive, or you're shooting it with a shotgun. Shooting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:19

That that particular case is shooting with a shotgun. So the the shotgun round rounds are filled with uh a mix of ceramic uh powder and everything that comes out as a kind of a solid chunk, but as soon as it hits something, it's designed not to go through walls and doors and everything. As soon as it hits something, it turns into powder. But but because it comes out as a kind of a fused chunk, it carries and dissipates that energy. And so if you've breached correctly, you hit, you know, important components of the door, whether it's hinges or or the latch bolt or whatever it is, and it blows that uh that piece out of the door and out of the door frame so that you can open the door. But it's designed not to like then continue on as a projectile uh type of thing. Uh and so, but if you're right there in front of the door, obviously you're gonna have frag coming through pieces of the door, pieces of metal, whatever, all these different things. So you you don't want people anywhere near it. Um but anyway, so so you know, we we pull them out, get them kind of funneled. You you essentially create these people weren't hostages, obviously, but we're keeping keeping the same kind of concept where you you create a funnel of protection for these people and they get they get moved all the way out the front door to medical and you know people outside resources. And so we spent the rest of the day, multiple teams came in, right? Multiple uh other other components of FBI came in, HRT flew up, um, and so we were working with them on various things and went through and and you know, marshals were there, ATF was there, everybody was on scene. Uh, and so um finished clearing that thing. But as we're clearing, right, I mean you're literally stepping over, you know, dead bodies, and and you felt horribly disrespectful doing that, but it was a job to do, right? And and and the scene was not secure. Again, because we didn't know that there wasn't that second or third or whatever, you know, other shooter. Um but um but yeah, I mean, the the the first person uh that he shot, he he went to the to the uh bathroom. We watched the video of him doing all this after the fact, but yeah, he went to the bathroom, pulled out his shotgun, and and got himself ready, and then walked down the hallway and literally turned hooked to left, and the first guy that he shot was just a guy sitting at his computer, you know, nine, whatever it was in the morning, just doing his thing, and get shot with a 12-gauge shotgun from three feet away, right in the face.

SPEAKER_03: 9:59

So kind of backtracking, obviously active shooter, but was this guy a part of the Navy?

SPEAKER_01: 10:05

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, he was a contractor. Uh so he was a contracted employee um that worked for worked for them. I mean, he he badged in. He didn't like shoot his way in. Yeah. He badged in, and the security guard that he shot um was actually later in his in his shooting. He actually came down and went and shot him. Um so it wasn't like he shot his way in. He was he came through, yeah, badged in and came on in.

SPEAKER_00: 10:29

I remember, you know, most listeners will who were adults at that time or, you know, it was 2013, right? So yeah, I those are that's one of those news things. I remember it happening. I mean, it's like the whole nation is like there's a there is an ongoing shooting at a at a naval base, like at a base of operations for the United States Navy right now. And so you're just kind of on pins and needles. But you're running 110 in a suburban.

SPEAKER_01: 11:02

Talk about pins and needles. Yeah, I mean, and and there were there were a number of there were a number of things that we, you know, we kind of got out of that that whole day. Um a lot of lessons learned, you know. Uh we did, we did a number of things right, and we did some things that we needed to improve on, you know, and it was it was always something where you're you're you're having to, you know, in that in that job, depending on what you're doing, whether it's investigations or tactical work or whatever, you're almost always having to set aside the ugliness of what's in front of you for whatever the mission calls for in that moment, right? Whether and when I say mission, it could be the investigation, could be interviews and interrogation. Um, you know, uh a number of people have had to do this some, but others, you know, did this for their for their full-time job, where you're interviewing and talking to somebody, you know, who has been uh an abuser of children, right? Whether physically or sexually or whatever else, uh, and and they have just destroyed children, but you have to make them think that they are your friend so that that you can eventually get to, you know, them confessing and and and your investigative responsibilities uh demand that you like you're you're it. Nobody else is gonna do it. Like you're the one in front of this person interviewing them, right? And you know, I've got I've got friends who who would do these types of interviews, and the things that you say and to try to get them to think that you're like them, you get done, and guys would literally walk out, they'd have to take a break in the middle of the interview, and they go outside and they'd throw up in a trash can, right? Because they just it's just, you know, I don't want to be saying these things, you know, because this is not me. Yeah. Um, but we're we're working to get to justice for these kids. We're working to get this guy in prison so he doesn't do it to other people, whatever the case may be. And in the same it's not different scenario, uh, it may be uglier on its face, but a lot of this stuff in the, you know, in when you're experiencing these types of things, uh, and it's death and mayhem and chaos, you've still got to do the same thing. You've got to say, okay, that's horrible. I recognize that. And those are people, and I would love to treat them with respect, and I will, but right now we've got we've got other things that are that are more pressing. Um and so that's what a lot of it's what a lot of people struggle with in law enforcement military is is how how do you how do you how do you deal with both sides of that, right? I've got a job to do, I know the job that I need to do, but people are depending on me to do it well and to and to get to some sort of resolution, whatever it is, whether it's a tactical resolution or an investigative resolution or whatever. Um but at the same time, how do I how do I acknowledge the awfulness of what's in front of me without compromising what my responsibilities are? Right. And so it's that it's that fine line of sort of uh walking the middle of being able to compartmentalize those things without compartmentalizing compartmentalizing them so much that you lose your feelings, you lose your emotion, you lose your care, you lose all you know, all that kind of stuff. And that's what a lot of a lot of people have trouble with.

SPEAKER_00: 14:36

I made us I made a comment when we were having breakfast this morning that I think that the only two people, the only two types of people I've ever interacted with that have coped well and moved on in life from situations like the one you just described, or some of the stuff we're gonna get into, uh you know, combat deployments, um, where they've seen terrible the the worst side of humanity are people who are borderline sociopathic and so they don't have a great capacity to empathize, or people who are the most empathetic of all humans, which is people that have a high view of the sovereignty of God. And and uh you know, that's what I want to talk about in this episode is how how critical and I want to walk back, let's go back to to to your early FBI career and then the program that you got involved in early in GWAT, early in the War on Terror, the global war on terror. But um, I want to talk about how critical is it that your theology is intact if you're gonna be working law enforcement or or be in the military and how important that has been for you and then what that what that has equipped you to do so that you're not, like you said, you're not compartmentalizing something as if you're gonna put it in a compartment and suppress it and ignore it. You're putting it in a in a in a compartment that you you look long and hard at often, right, and you consider it. Right. You know, like in Romans 8 18, Paul says, I consider the sufferings of this present life not worth comparing to the glory that's to be revealed. That word consider means to gaze into, to reckon, to contemplate, to evaluate.

SPEAKER_01: 16:26

So it's not for for someone And the follow-on of that is it's an affirmative decision coming out of that consideration. Right? It's not just I think about it, but I I I rightly categorize it.

SPEAKER_00: 16:43

And that affects the rest of my thinking. You have a category to put it in that is that is that category is appropriated through your understanding of scripture, your view of the sovereignty of God. God's still in control, the world is broken and fallen, there's this is not how things are going to end. There's a story of redemption, there's a new creation, a new kingdom where there won't be war, there'll be one final war, and then no more, like Yeah, I think I think that it's such a stark contrast between the person who is empathetic but holds a high view of the sovereignty of God, and so they put what they've seen, dead, you know, the death and darkness of the world, they put it into a compartment that they can look at and and consider, but then or or those people that I mean, I read one time, I was reading it might have been in gr one of Grossman's books, where it's like people that cope well with death and killing and combat and that that seem to be unaffected by it are just one percent away from being in the same vein as a sociopath that's a serial killer. But they but they don't they're not there. They've got the restraint of a conscience, an understanding of right and wrong, uh an adherence to a code of morality, you know, but but the way they're sort of hardwired is almost at a sociopathic level, but it's not there. You know, it's interesting the way that he described that. So let's go back. All right, let's go back to um when when you first were in the FBI, what you were doing and and how you ended up deploying in 09. So you get in the FBI, your initial job, you're you're doing your job. Well, you know, I think you're stationed in the Midwest or Nebraska, Omaha. And so what are you doing there? And then how do you end up in this program? What is the program? How do you end up in it that that gets you deployed?

SPEAKER_04: 18:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 18:42

So um spent four years in Omaha and was working counterterrorism uh for a year. They stood up, this was right after uh post-Robert Hansen in the FBI and his his discovery or the discovery and his arrest and you know all the chaos that sort of ensued from that. Uh they formed counterintelligence squads in every single field office. Bob Mueller decided that that, you know, that was the that was the right answer. You know what, you know who Robert Hansen is. You touch on that briefly. Yeah. So Robert Hansen was a uh was a longtime FBI agent, worked in the in counterintelligence uh field within the FBI, that uh at one point along the way, um, for a whole host of reasons that they've written books about, um decided that he was going to spy for the Russians. And so Cold War. Yeah. So so he uh offered his services. It was actually uh, if you ever hear the phrase a walk-in, it basically means that someone that you didn't know about previously contacts you and says, I want to, you know, spy for you, basically. And so he was offering that to the Russians. Now, for the longest time, they didn't know who he was. So he was smart enough because he came out of this field to not let them know who he was. And there's a whole series, there's long conversation, but there's a whole series of ways that he did that and the ways that they would communicate where he didn't really know their identity, knew generally who they were, obviously, but they didn't know his identity at all, uh, or hardly at all. Um, and so that lasted for a long time, and honestly, that's what sort of allowed him to do it for such a long time. One of the reasons there were other other things. Um But anyway, so he he spied for the Russians over a long period of time, and he gave up some of the most sensitive things because of the positions he held within the FBI, he had a lot of liaison with State Department, with CIA, with various other elements um where he had access to extraordinarily sensitive information.

SPEAKER_03: 20:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 20:57

Yeah, that's actually that's actually what one of the things that got him was that that level of information, there's only so many people that have access to that, right? And so once it took the FBI and CIA and everybody years to figure out that there was a problem. But then once they did figure out it was there was a problem, they it was sort of a steady march kind of to to figure out who the guy was. Uh, but anyway, they arrest him uh as after he's completed a dead drop, which is a dead drop is essentially like, you know, I put uh you know, I don't know, a thumb drive or something in this coffee cup here, and I set it up under uh, you know, the the bridge there on Snowbird's Creek.

SPEAKER_03: 21:42

And then I come and pick it up.

SPEAKER_01: 21:43

And then you come and pick it up later, and we've communicated somehow that I have uh you know filled the dead drop and then you go and retrieve it, right? And basically what that is is it nobody can take a picture or a video of you and I together. Yeah, right. It's a so anyway, he had just done that in a park in uh in uh Virginia, and uh they they were you know FBI was surveilling him the whole time and and they snatched him afterwards. That was sort of his just final proof of of guilt. Um, but anyway, post post that happening, counterintelligence squads uh implemented in all the all the field offices in the FBI. Uh I was in Omaha at at the time, got pulled from counterterrorism to work that uh for a year, um, and then uh got sent back um to to work terrorism uh more because there were just some higher priority things. And then eventually got kind of where I wanted to get, which was which was large-scale violent crime, uh, which is which is what I wanted to do. Um and transferred to the Washington Field Office in 07 and began, got on their team. I'd I'd made the SWAT team in uh in um in Omaha, and there's a funny story about my first SWAT hit. We could hear that. What's that? Go ahead and tell it. So a little context, uh, two of the guys, the the team leader and the assistant team leader were former HRT guys, right? Been on HRT for like a hostage rescue team. Okay. Um, um, you know, nine plus years each. Serious dudes, well accomplished, well known, the whole thing. Uh Nebraska was their home. And so after they had completed their time there, uh they they got a transfer benefit to go where they wanted to go. They both decide to come back home. And so um, you know, go through selection, make the team. Um, we're going on our first actual, you know, go through training and we're going through for our first actual, you know, live operation. Zero six in the morning, like most law enforcement stuff is based on legal reasons. Uh, and we jump out of the vehicle. I'm the breacher, right? And I've got my big metal ram. Um I'm hutt-hutt hutting up the sidewalk, lose my balance, roll forward. This steel ram hits the concrete, and I swear to you, the Liberty Bell is quiet within this thing. It clangs. And of course, it's 0-6 in the middle of the hood, it's quiet, right? There's no noise, and literally I hit the ground, clang, clang, clang, roll, get up, and I look, and these two dudes are just staring at me like you are the biggest idiot we for our listeners, which we were we filmed the first session, but for listeners that don't know, Clay is 6'4, what, 230?

SPEAKER_00: 24:40

At least. At least. I wish I was 230. Okay, yeah, okay. I was being not. I'm 230, and you're healthily larger than me. Like he's a big boy. He don't drop, he don't fall and drop a a ram and not make a scene. Yeah, that's funny.

SPEAKER_01: 24:58

Yeah, I've never that was your first that was the first one. Yeah, so it was it was fantastic, right? If there was any pride in me, it was all gone. Yeah, it was all gone right after that. Um, so yeah. Um, but anyway, you know, after after Omaha transferred to Washington field office um in 07 and um get on Washington field office team. So Washington field office team is significantly larger uh and and involved in, you know, because it's DC, just involved in a lot of different things. Um and one of the things that uh one of the guys that team leaders at the time on our team had been in Kabul in 01. Or I forget whether he was there during the 9-11 attack or sh or shortly thereafter. But anyway, whatever it was. Uh guy's name was Rick. And so Rick was there and was in Kabul, and and over the course of you know, the follow-on months and a year or so uh that he was in and out of that place, he was working with various, uh, we used to have something, I think they've changed the name long ago, but uh it was military liaison unit, M O U, that the FBI had, you know, that was their main job was to liaison with the various elements of the military where the military and FBI operations, you know, overlapped in some fashion. FBI is investigating somebody who's in Africa or whatever, and they they fall under a military, you know, or Afghanistan or Iraq or wherever they fall under some sort of military.

SPEAKER_00: 26:30

And vice versa, if the military is on foreign soil and they find out there's a connection to a stateside cell, then y'all would go. Then that puts it into your jurisdiction.

SPEAKER_01: 26:42

Correct. So whether we would physically go or maybe it's something they've collected and they're, you know, they have certain legal uh um legal limitations, right, as as to what they can do with respect to U.S. persons. Uh so they they run up against whatever that limit is and they say, okay, we now have to hand this to the FBI because you have the legal authority to do, you know, to do the follow-on investigation on U.S. persons. So anyway, that there was a whole lot of you know back and forth there because it wasn't just terrorists overseas, right? They attacked on the U.S. homeland. So there was a criminal, in addition to the war that had kicked off, there was also a criminal investigation for the murders uh of all the people that died on 9-11. So that's there was a strong overlap there, right? And so anyway, he was he was in Kabul uh and began to began to liaison with a lot of the special operations groups, whether it was Green Brays or Rangers or whoever else, uh, and and they would go on Target and they would, you know, grab people or grab electronic devices, notebooks, whatever the case may be, all kinds of different things, put it in a bag, bring it back to their Intel group, dump it on the table, and they they just didn't have this was new for them as well, right? They they didn't have a real strong intelligence cycle built for how to handle all of that stuff, attribute it to certain persons, all that, and so through the relationships, they started talking to Rick and others and uh began to help train them on how to do that better. Because that's what that's what FBI and other law enforcement agencies do. We do search warrants, right? And we are going in there to look for evidence that then is attributed to a person, right? So that we can charge them criminally and whatever else. And and that and whatever we do has to stand up in court. Um so there's gotta be a a fairly rigorous process to do that. Yeah, because it's not, you know, it's not simply about uh retribution and and you know justice in in a military fashion, right? And that certainly obviously was, you know, one massive component of it. But the other component of it was all along the way for the past, you know, 20 years or whatever, uh, or more than that, um, FBI and other and other law enforcement entities uh NYPD for a while on various different things, right? Were were part and parcel of the overall operation in order to cover sort of all ends of the spectrum, right? So you've got you've got Intelligence organizations that are gathering information and creating reports and tracking people down. And then they have certain legal authorities for action, you know, kinetic action. And then there are military organizations, both regular military and special operations under the special operations umbrella, who are doing either same or similar, but with slightly different authorities and capabilities, right? And so if you're talking about uh in a declared war zone in Afghanistan or in Iraq, right, now you have the military as as as your uh lead organization that has that has primary uh authority there, right? They're there under certain legal authorities under the under the idea of war. But if you're talking about another nation that you don't have a declared, it's not an area where you have a declared war. Other elements of the government have primacy, and it's generally going to be a combination of depending on what it is you're trying to do, State Department, maybe the CIA or whatever, right? And they're those legal authorities and who has primacy affect what gets done, how it gets done, when it gets done, all these different things, right?

SPEAKER_00: 31:19

So it's we so it's not just our military is now at work, our federal law enforcement agencies are at work and the two are having to figure out how to do this together.

SPEAKER_01: 31:30

Correct. And so out of that comes kind of fast-forward that component of it, out of that comes an actual program where FBI agents are deployed not only to be at uh the bases and fobs and whatever else to help with interrogation and interviewing uh or or uh evidence processing. Yep, absolutely. Uh I I worked with a girl, uh, she was from the New Jersey field or Newark field office, and she came to Kandahar where I was deployed, and man, she whipped that place right up. It was, she was stellar at evidence gathering. Like she wouldn't have been any good out on target, right? But that's not why she was an FBI. That was not what she brought to the fight, but she brought all this other stuff, and she was she was a killer at it, man. Uh and um, and so anyway, so out of that comes sort of not only embedding at the bases for various purposes, intelligence analysis, whatever it is, but actually embedding with the units, so with SEAL units, SEAL team units or Rangers or um uh Green Berets or or whoever else and and and the tier one guys as well. Uh and so there's a whole program of that that that takes place over the probably uh roughly the following 10 years.

SPEAKER_00: 32:54

Because that first the like when Rick was over there the first like that first year after the um after the 9-11 attacks, we had we had special operations going in on targets. And what you were describing earlier is they're bringing back computers, cell phones, they they killed everybody, grabbed the stuff, brought, and we don't know whose computer is this, and what target did this come from, and who is that person you killed? Do you know? And so it's just you're not getting the information you need to do your job stateside or to protect American people or to prosecute the people responsible for murdering 3,000 people in a tower, and sure, or or even or even just to feed the military intelligence cycle. Okay, right.

SPEAKER_01: 33:38

So whether whether it came back for criminal purposes or not, okay. Even if it was an Afghan guy, an Afghan citizen who would never see the inside of a U.S. courtroom, there's a whole intelligence cycle which eventually turned into as they as they stood the Afghan government sort of back up uh after the initial wave of of war and destruction and everything, there was a whole prosecution uh process inside Afghanistan. Inside. And y'all are teaching them how to do that. And we're yeah, and so we're we're helping with all of that. I mean, they're fast learners, right? But but they're this is just not what they've done, right? Yeah, okay. Uh and so what ended up happening was guys that were deemed by by the program, the FBI program leaders, to be investigatively and tactically uh proficient would then volunte it was an all-volunteer thing, but you would you would sort of make the cut, and then you would go uh be deployed and and embed with these military units uh and go out on target with them. And then as the you know, when they would hit a place, whatever happened happened. Sometimes it was, you know, shoot a lot of times it was you know shooting and and what you would consider warfare, and then other times they would they would we would be able to sneak in quietly and kind of get the get the drop on people and just roll them up. Yeah, there wouldn't be it wouldn't be a shot fired. Um so but what at some point in that you would transition to what at the time we called SSE, they've they've got different names for it now, um, but it was sensitive side exploitation, right? And so uh but essentially what it is, I think they call it um chem now, captured enemy material or something like that. And now what we would do is we would essentially take our search warrant processes and strip out all of the administrative stuff that, you know, if you ever wonder why it takes the FBI to do, you know, five hours to do a search warrant on a house, it's because of all the legal requirements. All you've got to dot all the I's cross you know, cross the Ts. Constitutional protection of I mean what uh most of it has to do with if if this coffee cup here is for whatever reason an item of evidence that we take and it and it's it's deemed to be evidentiary in nature to you know that that's relevant to whatever it is we're investigating. I have to track the the this coffee cup through the entirety of the FBI's possession of it everywhere. Every person I hand it off to, every room it's stored in, every time it gets checked out to then go to the lab and come back, every time it gets checked out to go to court and come back, and all these different things. Because in court, if there is a gap in any of that, then that is an attack vector for the defense to say, how do we know that this was not manipulated in some fashion? Right, whatever, and and my clients being unjustly uh uh accused and they're trying to get the evidence kicked. Okay, right? Yeah. And so so there's a that's just one like the chain of custody piece of it's just one element of the whole deal. Um, but you know, to the point of uh, you know, the processes are take a picture of the cup in place where you found it before you ever move it, ever touch it, right? And then document it along the way. So anyway, all of these things, you didn't need to be that uh tight when you're when you're in Afghanistan. And you couldn't be, right? You don't have four hours on target, right? You're lucky if you've got 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_00: 37:36

So you hit a compound, you need to do in 15 minutes what you need to do.

SPEAKER_01: 37:40

That's it. That's it. And so what what they did, what the guys that you know that were before me uh did were create processes where we get all of the elements, the collection and attribution elements of our search warrant process, but get rid of all of the much longer US legal system sort of pieces, parts of it. Uh you still had your, you could still track, you know, who who had it and where it went, if it ever, if it ever made its way over to U.S. prosecution, that there was still that ability to do that. But we stripped out a lot of the other stuff and got just down to the absolutely most important things. And so if I can attribute this coffee cup to you, and I need to know what room you came out of so that I can attribute the room to you, I need to know where the coffee cup was so I can attribute the coffee cup to you, right? And and obviously I'm using a coffee cup, but whatever it is. Is it an AK? Is it an explosive vest? Is it uh, you know, is it is it a notebook that's got intelligence in it? Because on the back side of this thing, we're gonna interrogate you right there to see what we can get. But if, you know, whether we get something good or not, you're eventually gonna be questioned, you're coming with us, and you're gonna be questioned at a later date by somebody else. And we want that component, we want that whole process to go, okay, we have found this notebook. The notebook, by all you know, uh uh reasonable um, you know, assumptions belongs to Brody, right? And so when we sit down with Brody to conduct an interview or interrogation, we're gonna have studied this and then we're gonna be able to question him on it, right? Now, there's all kinds of different ways. Like, how do you um how do I keep track of what room we found you in? I don't know your name. I don't know, we're just hitting a compound, right? I don't know your name, I don't know anything else. And so we came up just very simple. When I say we, I'm talking about this is dozens and dozens and dozens of people kind of contributing to this process. Um, and you know, came up with various different things, right? Maybe you're writing on them with Sharpie, maybe you got a piece of 100 mile an hour tape, you slap on them, and you write came out of room two bravo, you know, or whatever, you know, building six room two bravo, whatever, whatever. We came up with various designations to do this really, really quickly. Uh because you might own the block, or you may have hit this place with, you know, 15 people, and and you've got to get in and get out. And if you stay too long, the the hordes coming across the valley at you. So uh, and you might be doing it while the firefight's going on. I mean, I've did I did that several times where where, hey, the firefight's happening, we're we're engaged, um, but we got to get this done. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 40:37

And so you've got to get off the gun and go do this while the gunfight's still happening.

SPEAKER_01: 40:43

Either I would make that decision sometimes uh and and and just say, hey, if you're good with it, I'm gonna start this thing. And they they usually they'd be like, yeah, let's get it done, let's go. Or they would say, Hey, we got to get this done, Clay, you know, jump off, go do this. And so I would uh it started out where I would I would um kind of coordinate it, and then it ended up uh so I was embedded with a with an ODA or a Green Beret team, and that was my primary responsibility. I got farmed out during my deployment. Uh we were based out of Kandahar, but I got farmed out during my deployment uh to SEAL teams and other other Green Beret teams and various different things based on need.

SPEAKER_00: 41:22

Um I did ask you when we were sitting around the fire that night uh this past summer, I said, what was that like how open at first were they to having an FBI guy come with and then how long did it take you to sort of earn their respect? What was did you just kind of hey guys, I'll stay in the shadows? Um I think the way you described it was, hey, I'm here, you just tell me what you need me to do. Yeah. What what was that initial introduction to that main team you were assigned to? What was that like? And then what was the first target that you went on with them?

SPEAKER_01: 41:56

Bunch of criminal hooligans is what it was. No, I'm kidding. I'm I'm joking. I love those guys. I still keep in touch with a bunch of them. Um yeah, so so you know, if you're in this world, when I say this world, the special operations world, you know, there there is a there is a time and the place where they're operating sort of in the dark and and doing what they do. Um and then there is, then as things shift, more spotlight, you know, comes on things. You've got Abu Ghraib, you've got all these different things that that are now creating a much greater um emphasis on uh or shining a real spotlight, right? And so the big question for a lot of these guys is why is this FBI agent here? I mean, I get I get the reason on paper, but is he here to basically spy on us and report on us? And so people are just a little taken aback. I mean, all these guys are good dudes. Like I, the whole time I was there, I never saw anybody do anything sideways. They they were solid, solid guys. Um, but they don't know, right? And they don't, if they've never worked with the FBI before, the only thing they know, like everybody else, is TV or stories from other people or whatever, um, which are almost always wrong. Um what? Right, I know criminal minds. Shocking. Oh my gosh. Um but yeah, I mean, initially, look, you can't go into a team of guys or team of people, period. Office space, you know, ministry, whatever. You can't go in and go, all right, I'm here and I'm taking over X part. Good luck, right? That doesn't work. That's just a human thing. It just doesn't work. And so it certainly does not work among a group of guys who have lived together, eaten together, their families know each other, they've supported each other, and and they've trained up for, you know, they've either been part of the same team for multiple years or they've trained up for this deployment, and they are quite literally putting their life their lives in the hands of of their teammates. And so um you don't just walk into that and you know, slap the table and say, here, I'm here, you know. So um, yeah, I I, you know, my initial my initial thing was, hey, I'm here to help with this component, you know. The Bureau is good at uh these types of things, and and I'm here to help with this kind of component. Uh, you know, if you guys want me to do anything else that I am legally allowed to do, I'm happy to help with it. Uh, but if you want me to stand in the rear with a gear until you wave me forward to handle this SSE component, it's your show, right? It's your mission, it's your show. Uh I'm I'm sucking up your oxygen and eating your chow and sleeping in, you know, in the same uh bunkhouse as you guys are. So, you know, you let me know, right? How much how involved you want me to be.

SPEAKER_00: 44:55

And did that immediately did that have an immediately positive response, that posture and attitude that you had? Because I guess they're expecting what what would not go well is if you go in there and try to prove immediately that you're an alpha operator, that ain't gonna work. Yeah, you're probably not gonna last too long at all, period.

SPEAKER_01: 45:16

Right? I mean you're you're coming and yeah, yeah. You're you're coming into their space. This is literally their space, they own it, you know, and um if you come in with really any other attitude, you're you're you're an idiot. Um and so Yeah, so I sat down, you know, with the uh with the ODA team leader and the um team sergeant, and um, you know, I was older. Uh I was I was older than the team leader, and I was, I think, a month younger than the team sergeant. Uh, and so I was an older guy, so I at that point, uh, and I just kind of learned some harder lessons in life already and knew how not, at least in some ways, not to be stupid right out of the gate, right? And so I sat down with them and and they asked me a number of questions, and they're they're basically like, hey, what can you do? And uh look, you can you can approach that question in one of two ways, right? You can approach it and and just give them a laundry list of you know your accomplishments and you're you know, you're basically doing an interview and trying to tell them how awesome you are. Or you can say, Hey, here's where I think I can be of of of help, uh, take some load off you guys' shoulders and and like transition some of the work to me if if that's what you want, uh and if you're good with that. Uh, but you know, all the Hooyah stuff and the Johnny Rambo stuff and all that other junk, you know, you know, you'll you'll either want me to participate in that or you or you won't. Right. And that's fine. And uh, you know, I think that was kind of a tiger trap they were laying out there to see what kind of a guy I was. Um, and um, you know, I answered them and just said, hey, I'm my main job is to help you guys with this SSE piece. Uh, you you put me in the group wherever you want me. And if I can help you in other ways, great. Right. If I can just hold cover on a on a on a uh an empty alleyway or or something, while and that allows you to direct more of your guys to to the fight. If I'm helpful that way, awesome. You know, but if you don't want me to do that, okay. You know, and I think they appreciated that um uh because on the very first mission, uh, you know, they assigned me to the team sergeant to be with him, and I got it. I knew what it was gonna be, right? That was him watching me. Babysitting you. Yeah, he was watching me, and there was gonna be an evaluation, right? I'd I'd passed I'd passed, you know, test number one. Now let's see what it looks like on target. And um, and I got it. I I knew I would do exactly the same thing, right? I felt that was no no insult, no nothing. I'd do exactly the same thing. They hadn't seen me, they didn't know. Um, and so um, yeah, we uh we land in our first first one, and uh we're hutt, hutt, hutting off of the off of the Chinook, you know, off the ramp. And I was coming off last, and I was supposed to be just kind of the last U.S. guy. We had some Afghan guys with us. I was supposed to be the last U.S. guy just to make sure the Afghan dudes didn't get lost, and you know, and uh and got it. I'm I'm in the rear with the gear, I'm bringing up the rear. Understood. I understand my assignment. And we're approaching, we're approaching the first compound, and team sergeant looks at me and he's like, Clay, go take some dudes and clear that place. Take some dudes. Take some dudes. All right, trial by fire. I got it, I got it. And so anyway, you know, uh I guess, I guess whatever I did was okay. And uh, and and from then on it was it was it was game on for the for the rest of the deployment. Um, and um, I'll tell you what, I mean, I I've told you this before. That that deployment was without question the best thing I ever did. I I was very fortunate to be involved in a lot of a lot of interesting things in the FBI, most of it not my doing, just just right place, right time, right squad, whatever. Um but that was the best thing I'd ever gotten to do. And not because of the Hooyah stuff, but because it was I was half a country away from my nearest supervisor. And it was just dudes sitting around a table just like this and having very direct conversation. What are we good at? What are we not good at? How do we need to be better? Clay, what can you help with? You know, and I was able to say, well, of the five things that we listed, you know, uh one, I'm not legally allowed to help with. Two, I I don't have any experience in that, so I'm I'm not gonna be much help there. But these other three, yeah, I can help you with that. Give me 24 hours, I'll come back with a plan. And I'd come back with a plan and talk to the team sergeant and the and the team warrant uh and the you know and the uh team lead. And you know, they'd make decisions whether they liked what the plan was or wasn't. And and we just have very there was no Mother May I. It was it was big boy rules and uh loved it. Absolutely loved it.

SPEAKER_03: 50:29

How long were you with that team, like deployed with them?

SPEAKER_01: 50:32

Four months uh with that one. Um and um yeah, so I was actually about to rotate back. It was time to it was time to to start doing kind of a workup to go back when the FBI canceled the program. They got a guy, they got a guy hurt pretty badly, wasn't killed, yeah. I got hurt pretty badly, and I think they just got spooked. Um and and there were a number of other reasons. Uh that's too simplistic, but but uh they they canceled the program as a whole program that the FBI still deploys with the military, but they canceled sort of that version of the program uh at the time.

SPEAKER_00: 51:11

What uh how many ops did did it take before you saw your first pretty intense uh like activity? Like that first one number two. Okay, yeah. And then for four months it's pretty steady. I mean, you're in the Hornet's nest.

SPEAKER_01: 51:30

Yeah, we were going out all the time, all the time. So they were the the particular ODA I was with was the was the what they call the the the DA team for for RC South, which was direct action team. Um and so the way the military, you know, there was a they'd have a whole target deck, you know, and you know, okay, this this component of the target deck goes to this team and this one to this team, da da da, you know, it kind of gets all split out um based on just what line of of you know of the organization any particular group is sort of targeting. Um and over, you know, we just went out over and over and over again. And um, you know, there it's interesting to kind of get back to what you were talking about in the very beginning. Um did did my did my tactical training, you know, that that I that I gained within the various SWOT elements of the FBI that I've been part of and the various people we had been training with. Um because we had we had some relationships with some special operations groups that we would go train at their facilities and different things. Um they would not train us, right? That's that's not permitted. Um, but but you know, you sit around and you just have conversations. Hey, how how would you guys handle this? You know, it's like, okay, you know, 20 or 30 percent of that we doesn't that doesn't fall without the story of the last episode with Adam Brown.

SPEAKER_00: 53:00

Exactly. The frag grenades.

SPEAKER_01: 53:02

I uh Adam, I can't chuck frag grenades, man. That that's we don't we're not allowed to do that. Uh and uh um but um you know, but maybe 70% of it is is our concepts. We may not do it exactly the way they do it, right? We don't we don't have the right gear, we don't have the right training time to do it maybe as fast or as uh certain ways as they do, but there are pieces of it, there's concepts of it that we can take. Um, because I I was sitting in a team room of a of a um a dev group guy one time. And uh that's SEAL team six. And so um we were having a conversation, just just talking. Uh he and I grew up uh about I don't know, 20 minutes from each other in nowhere northern Arkansas. And uh so we were just talking. He he was I don't think he was probably 10 years younger than me at the time, but um he unfortunately died on the uh extortion 17 uh helicopter crash. So um and um so we're talking and uh and uh you know he said he said something at one point he was like look he's like yes there are all kinds of differences between our organizations and what we do, how we do it, and legal authorities and what our end game is, you know, for for being involved at all. And that's that's obviously true. Uh but at the end of the day, when the bullets start flying, a gunfight's a gunfight. Right? And so you know it doesn't matter whether you're in southeast DC or you're in you're in you know Loitereth Bazaar and in uh in Elman province uh of Afghanistan. Um so you know it's kind of it's kind of same some some of that is same, same. We don't have all the weapons of war and the legal authorities. I can't drop bombs on houses, right? I can't I can't shoot tow missiles or whatever else at it, but uh Carl Gustav's and everything else. But um anyway, so the but what I got out of that deployment uh and brought back was operational efficiencies that we could inject in our team, right? We nothing changed about the way we performed our duties in the FBI. We stayed within the FBI policies, FBI rules, legality, all of that. Not none of that changed. But how did we become more operationally efficient? How were we better prepared? How were we better trained? Uh, down to op plans, right? The structure of our op plans uh was able to help with that conversation. There were a bunch of us deploying at the time. Uh so while I was deployed, there were two other teammates of mine in country, different places, but different uh in country, and they were learning, you know, same and different lessons than I was. And so a lot of that was was a lot of advancement for us in in understanding how to just be sharper, be better when we got back. Um, and um, but yeah, it was it was it was an interesting thing, you know, going back to what you were talking about uh earlier and and God's sovereignty in the whole thing. Um you know, you there are a lot of guys, a lot of questions, you know, a lot of some of the guys that I was there with came back, broke up, right? And had some had some pretty dark times. Um unfortunately none of them were believers. Uh one became one. Uh, and I think I can't remember, I think I told uh tell that story last time. Um anyway, you know, I'd been with these guys at this point three months about a little bit more. Um and you know, we'd had a number of gospel conversations with various individuals. You know, you sit around the team room, you're doing different things, conversations just happen. And uh the team leader kind of started referring to me as the you know, as the the Christian on the team and whatever, you know, or with the team. I wasn't on the team, but with the team. Um, and um um we were in the middle of uh kind of a it was a four-day firefight. There was a couple of five days, sorry, five days, uh, there. We we took over a town that was a hub of of activity where they were making foreign fighters were coming in as well as uh Afghans were making um suicide vests. Like I found a whole stack of vests that were, you know, along with a bunch of explosives they were harvesting, they were bringing in Iranian C4 and all kinds of different things, right? And I forget, it was like 2,000 feet of Pakistani debt cord and a bunch of caps and all kinds of stuff that I was doing SSE on uh for this documenting it, documenting all the details and everything else. And of course, we're not gonna take that stuff and put it on a hilo and fly it back for quote unquote evidence, right? That junk just be stupid to put that stuff. Uh, but you know, we blow that in place. But do you document it all before you do that, right? And so uh I'm doing SSE every day. So the firefight generally would ramp up mid-morning and lull middle of the day because it was about 115 during the day, and then would ramp back up late afternoon, you know, early evening. And so in that middle, I would I would come off, you know, coordinate it, but I would come off where I was covering down, somebody would take that responsibility, and then I'll uh went and did SSE type stuff. And we had a bunch of DEA guys with us as well. Um, and so that was super helpful because they they knew exactly how to run, you know, uh uh a search warrant and and didn't have to train anybody to do anything. It was just, hey, we're doing this, yep, got it. Um and and they were very good dudes. That was because of the opium production. Yep, they had DEA had a had a pretty significant uh um presence in Afghanistan for a good while. DEA drug enforcement agency. Yep. Or administration, I'm sorry, administration. Um and um they uh and I'd worked with DEA guys, you know, back home for years. Um so anyway, um for that particular one, uh Marja, you can read the battle of or you can look at the Battle of Marja when the Marines went in in man, was it August or September of 09? I can't remember the exact date. Um and it was a it was a fight. I mean it was a it was a heck of a fight, and it's well documented. So Marja's M-A-R-J-E-H. Um and um we went in about four ish, five-ish months before they went in. And so we brought uh uh I say we, and obviously the guys, the ODA that I was with were the were the main guys planning it, but there was an ODA, an ODB, or sorry, two ODAs, an ODB uh and a SEAL task unit. That had come in. It was part of uh SEAL Team 7 was there. Um, and we all we we brought in whole we created this giant task force basically, but at the ground level, right? And um hit this place because it was a huge logistics hub for creating suicide vests, roadside bombs, uh, all kinds of different things. And it was a money-making place. This was a hub of opium uh activity that then turned into heroin and all these other things. And so um we we went in there, you know, middle of the night, and um funny story on that. So we're we're moving in and we've we've gotten a foothold and we're starting to really take over certain places, and uh we're gonna move down this long corridor of it's hard to describe because long corridor of like um storage, you know, roll-up storage units. And so we're clearing each one as we go because they're not locked and we don't we don't know what's in there. We certainly don't want to drive a group through it, and there might be an ID or whatever, because they had IDs all over the place. So anyway, we're just methodically working our way down this thing. And a vehicle, a little oh, little van-looking thing, like a little miniature van, comes driving down the road straight at us. And so clearly that's a problem. And um, so a couple of the guys, you know, put some rounds across the road in front of it, try to get him to stop. I mean, they didn't want to kill a guy in case he was just didn't know what was going on. They do that a couple of times, he doesn't stop. And so they're like, all right, fine, so we're gonna put a couple of rounds through the radiator. He doesn't stop. And he's getting closer and closer and closer. And so finally, uh, you know, they they they had already told one of the SEAL snipers to jump up on a up on a building and uh start getting ready. And uh so he got you know, got a bead on him, and they said, all right, you know, he he's gotta go because he won't stop. And, you know, our obviously our big concern was it was vehicle-borne IED, and he was gonna drive right in the middle of us. We weren't gonna allow that. Uh, and so he puts, I forget what he was shooting, but he puts, I want to say it was 308, but he puts three rounds in this nice tight circle right through the windshield, uh, face high. And uh the guy veers off, hits something, and and just kind of crashes right there. So, you know, we obviously kind of assumed what had happened. And uh so we were making our way up methodically, you know, guys get up on rooftops to kind of look down in the vehicle as much as possible, keep as much distance as possible. We didn't know what was in the vehicle. And they're like, hey, I we don't really see anything in the back of this vehicle. Can't tell for sure, but we don't really see anything. So me and a couple other guys, we began to move up. And so I'm clearing the left side of the vehicle, and I look, and there's nobody in the so I'm expecting to see a guy with his you know head split apart. I don't see anybody. I see blood, but I don't see anybody. And I'm like, what happened? And there's these nice three holes right through the windshield, and I look and it's wrong side drive. Steering wheels on the opposite side, but I still don't see a guy. So I finished clear, clearing the area and I'm looking around. I don't see anything. I look in the back, there's nothing in the back, and I look down and I'm like, ah, and there's a guy that had rolled out. I guess when he hit something, we couldn't see that side. He had rolled out, rolled down in the creek, and was just laying there. It was just some old dude. Wow. But because it was a wrong side drive, he lived. It saved his life. And the guy, the sniper couldn't see it because there was a glare on the windshield, right? He couldn't see into the vehicle. Um, so he couldn't tell for sure. Um, and uh, so anyway, we grabbed the guy, gave him medical treatment because he had a bunch of frag that did get him in the leg. And he didn't have a terrible wound, but it was it was enough he needed some attention. So anyway, yeah, we uh we uh that's how it started. And um we uh we got out and you know, kind of pushed out as far as we were gonna push, and it was an it was a five-day fight from there. And uh them trying to take it back over and come back in. And um we ended up with uh 20, if I remember the number right, 22,147 kilograms of opium, 201 kilos of processed heroin, 90 kilograms of m of morphine paste, which is kind of an intermediary product on the way to heroin, um hundreds of thousands of pounds of of opium seed that we eventually got rid of uh because that was next year's crop, right? Which would have been next year's money to fight to buy weapons to fight against you know defensive. So yeah, I mean it was it was uh that was by far the largest, you know, drug thing that I was ever involved in. And we didn't we didn't know it was gonna be that size. We knew there was gonna be a a good amount. We didn't know it was gonna be that size.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:35

Um, but and that five days did they put up a pretty good fight because they're they know what's at stake from their perspective, so they're fighting for that. Sure. I mean, that's that's livelihood. It's they've got their they've you know, whatever their religious zeal uh contributes, but then also just this is their livelihood. This is how they're gonna not only fund the war but keep people busy and occupied.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:04

And so I had a conversation with a guy one time, Afghan dude, through an interpreter uh that we we met up with in the valley. I mean, he's just way out in the middle of nowhere. And uh, and and he he really kind of helped me with my thinking. And he's like, look, he's like, this is a land that has always been at war in some way or another, right? And everybody's been trying to occupy and take over this place forever, all the way back to Alexander the Great. Like we, you could drive by one of Alexander the Great's old set of ruins in in Afghanistan. And um, and he's like, you know, he's like, just in my life, he said it was, you know, it was various elements within Afghanistan, then it was the Russians, right? Then it was various other elements in Afghanistan, now it's Americans, and you guys will eventually leave and it'll be somebody else, you know, all these different things. He's like, at the end of the day, I don't care. He said, see that, did you see that ridge line right there? He's like, I've never been past it. He's like, this is my valley, this is where I was born, this is where I will die, and the only thing I care about is growing whatever makes me money to feed my family. He's like, if it's wheat, if that if that's what makes me the most money, fine. He said, if it's poppy, fine. And he's like, I don't care what happens to it. He's like, I'm just I'm feeding my family. And he was no terrorist, he was no Talbon guy, he was no no anything, he was just a guy in a valley, you know, and because we asked him about the elections and did he like Karzai or any of the opponents or whatever. And his basic answer was I don't care.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:43

I don't care. Is that the guy that was clearing the road in front of y'all?

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:48

No, that dude. So, so I got farmed out to a different ODA uh up uh in the Aruzgan province, and we were gonna go on a uh, I think it was two weeks, might have been a day or two short of that. But anyway, it was roughly two weeks, uh, overland movement down to a town called Kajaki. And there was a they had taken it over, and they're they were again, they were making, you know, roadside bombs and suicide vests and all kinds of different things. And um, so we were gonna do an overland down there, and I got, or they were gonna do it, I got called in to help them because they didn't have an FBI guy assigned to them. So anyway, I fly up, uh, you know, meet them, work with them for I don't know, it was three or four days, five days, something like that, before we actually went. And we spent four days or something doing overland to get there. And as we're going, uh there was a uh there was a drone operator uh flying a little, I don't remember whether it was a fixed wing or it was a little uh you know quadcopter or something like that, but whatever it was. He was flying it out in front of us and he was just observing the road as we're moving along, right? Seeing if anybody's putting anything in the ground, block blockage to the road, whatever it was. And so as we're moving along, he would report back, hey, you know, I see three guys, they're putting something in the road, uh, and then they would decide whether they wanted to, you know, request an airstrike on it or whatever. Um, but as we're moving down this road, referencing the guy you you're talking about, there were three Afghan dudes walking in front of our convoy with metal detectors. And they were just like beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep on the road. And uh one of the guys told me that they hit those three guys had been working together since almost the very beginning of the war uh for the Americans. And he said that they had found uh approximately 5,500 IEDs in their time. And this is 09. Eight years, right? So so roughly eight years, probably a little less. And these guys, man, they had no fear. They would just walk up, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, raise a hand, hey, found one. Thank goodness. And then the the guys that would, you know, the demolition guys on the team for the you know, for for a um for an ODA is an 18 Charlie, right? He would come in and he would put a, you know, he'd do his examination or whatever, and then then usually they put some C4 on top of it. Back up, back up and cook it off. And uh, you know, and you you're sitting, you're sitting in a in a Hum V. I'm sitting in a Hum V and all of a sudden you see this IED go off ahead of you, you know, and and you hear it on the radio, it's been found, it's a controlled thing, so I mean there's no there's no fear involved or whatever, but because you know somebody's just they're taking care of it, um, and you hear the countdown. But um, but that happened a number of times, you know. But these guys, that guy, that there was one particular guy that I mean uh if you uh I forget the name of the movie, but if you see the movie and it's about the ODA guys early in the war um with some of the Afghan um Northern Alliance leaders, uh, and something the horsemen, the 12 horsemen.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:11

I think it's called um Yeah, I read the book.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:15

It's like I I forget what the movie's called, but it was that first group that that use horses in battle. It was crazy. Um but uh there's a line in the movie where one of the uh the Northern Alliance guy looks at everybody and and he's he's essentially evaluating them as to whether they have kind of gotten that steely-eyed attitude because they've been in combat. And he was in at least in his mind, he's like, I can see it in your eyes. And uh so he's like, you know, that guy, yes, that guy, yes, that guy no, whatever. Well, this guy had it. Man, he was just cold. But he was on the side of Americans, and and nothing phased this guy. Uh, we were with him for a while and nothing phased him at all. He carried a machete, and I didn't dare ask how much blood was on that machete. Um, but uh But him and the other guys, they would just walk out metal detectors for ears. He's just walking along with the metal detector. And I have no reason to think that, you know, as long as something bad didn't happen to him, he didn't continue to do it for years after.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:24

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:25

But um, you know, but he he he was on the side of the Americans, whether it was for cause or money or a combination of both, you know, I don't know. But uh but anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:37

So there's a point. Um I'd like I'd like to talk about two things. One, how did you prepare yourself? How did you prepare think how to how to ask this? How did you prepare yourself? You talked about the importance of preparation on the front end, and then how you didn't you didn't struggle in the same ways that a lot of people struggle, and you attributed that to the way you prepared yourself before you went. And I think that's I think that's very valuable to Christians that are going to go into law enforcement or the military. I talked to a lot of young dudes that come through here that want to talk about is it okay for me to do this? And is this an acceptable career path for a believer? And and I always encourage that and and try to give them solid biblical answers. Um, but then there was a point, I don't I don't know if you remember telling me the story, there was a point where you realized there was an aha moment where the Lord really made it clear you're gonna die when he's ready for you to die. And where you had moved from your spot. I think y'all are on Overwatch or you were you tell that story, you got up and left, and when you came back. That story, I've I've thought of that story, Clay. You told me that last when we were here, June. I've thought of that story 50 times if I've thought of it once. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:02

Yeah. So I mean, more more broadly, um, you know, I I knew because this this program had, you know, we were in 2009, right? So the war had been going on for seven, eight years at that point. Um, and um I knew what we were, I'd known guys who had gone over, so I knew that we were not what I was volunteering for was not to go over and live on a fob for, you know, four months and do analysis or whatever else. Yeah, Ford operating base. And so I knew I was, I knew what we were, what I was signing up for, right? There was no there was no sort of allusions to it. Um and so, you know, like we talked about, I I'd read a number of the number of the books by by Colonel Grossman um and had really worked on preparing my mind. And and not only preparing my mind, but in a in a tactical way or or whatever, but getting your mind right before you go into an operation. Certainly that, but in a in a scriptural way, in a theological way, right? And so I I am, as we talked about last time, you know, I wasn't an FBI agent, I didn't get to do these things, I wasn't in, you know, didn't drive subs in the Navy before because of any great thing in me. There's nothing great in me, right? I I'm I'm uh along with everyone else who will talk about the depravity of man, I am no different than anyone else, right? Nor is anyone who does any of this stuff. Um and God is not impressed in any way with our achievements as as men. Um and so I knew that what I wanted to do coming out of this deployment was know that going into it, during it, and after it that I had honored the Lord in my behavior, in my actions, my decisions, all these different things, right? So, you know, you can you can it's a fairly straightforward conversation as to whether you um, you know, find some deployment girlfriend or not, right? Which lots of guys do. That's an easy conversation, right? No. Straightforward. So avoid all those things. Got it. Um and and that was kind of alluding to what you mentioned earlier about marriage through all of this, right? Um that that I was not on deployment to be a, you know, to be anything other than what God has called us to be, which is obedient servants of his, right? Or as Paul talks about slaves of his. Um and so nothing changes because you go to war. Nothing changes because you're in law enforcement, nothing changes because you're in the military. Is it a different environment? Yes, it is. Do you, do you, are you required to do different things, make different decisions? Yes, you are. At the end of the day, though, whether you're an accountant in a business or or you're, you know, some super, super uh high-flying special ops guy, um we will all stand before the Lord and give an account, right? It's one man wants to die and then the judgment. It doesn't say, and a special judgment for these types of people, or it's it's one. Um, and so I wanted to get my mind right scripturally on, I had already done that from a law enforcement perspective, but you can law enforcement guys can easily slip into the, you know, I might have to use my weapon during my career. Maybe, right? And the vast, vast majority, huge percentage, uh don't have to. They never fire shot in in, you know, in aggression or or anger or whatever phrase you want to use for that operationally, you know, that's not on a in a training scenario. Um and you can slip into a place of comfort and and and not really have at the forefront of your mind why we're all here, right? I'm not wearing a plate carrier because I'm gonna go talk to a guy, right? Wearing a plate carrier because of what might happen, right? And now when you go to a war zone and you're not just going to a fob or a base or whatever, but you're actually gonna be on target with guys that are at the absolute front edge of this whole thing, you're gonna get shot at. Just like just absolute fact. And maybe you need to return fire, right? Some guys I knew deployed on these things and didn't and didn't have to use their weapons, right? Just the scenario, the way things happened, where they were, when any firefight started, they weren't in a position, whatever, whatever it was. Um, you know, that that wasn't my experience. Um and so what, but before going there, I wanted to ensure that I was on solid footing theologically before I deployed. And so I studied a lot about the life of David. Uh, I studied a lot in Romans 13, right? I studied a lot about the warrior kings and what God said about them. I knew, I knew that, you know, the nation of Israel at the time and you know, old covenant, new covenant, you know, there's some differences there, but the one thing that doesn't change is God. The character of God. The character of God. Same, yeah. And so what about the character of God did I need to be concerned about with respect to making decisions in these environments? And so, you know, I leaned heavily on, like I said, all those different things, but certainly one of the things that that just you just can't get around it if you read Romans 13, right? And and and there's there's a particular line in it, I'm I'm not gonna get exactly right, but where where he talks about um, do you think that they bear the sword for no reason? Talking about government, right? And then he's mentioning that that the government authorities have been placed in position by God for his purposes, right? Recognizing who is he writing to? He's writing to the Romans. So, so if there is a contextual topic, it's the Roman government that he's talking about, right? And certainly it's it applies more broadly. Um so the question then becomes how do you work for a non-Christian government, which our government certainly is, yet function within the boundaries God has set up in such a way that you are part of that Romans 13, right? Where it says that they they they exact wrath for a reason, right? And so in my mind, I I worked through that process of okay, if I am in a right place at the right time for the right reasons, that falls within the understanding of Romans 13, but also uh all of the you know, God's commandments all throughout scripture. It's not just that one thing. We're not cherry-picking here, right? You get all of the sum total of scripture uh weighing in on this. And I am required to use whatever it is, bodily weapons, carried weapons, you know, firearms, explosives, whatever, in such a way that it harms, injures, or takes a life, then then biblically I'm supported in that as long as I am doing it for a reason that that God is part and parcel of God's character and what he has said in scripture. And so that put me in a mindset of being where we were and all the operations we did, right? There was no sketchy operation. Every single one we did, there was a val of a super valid reason for us to be there, right, and do what we were doing. And you know it walking through that ahead of time and being not only on sort of getting my mind right humanly, but getting my mind right scripturally and theologically, I was able to just function with freedom over there. Knowing the guardrails, knowing what scripture says about you know what I should or shouldn't be doing, and function with freedom. But then come out of that without something weighing on my conscience, right? Now, for all you know, for anybody who might be listening to this that that that didn't prepare that way, or maybe was involved in something that you know that that might have been a little sideways, right? The forgiveness of God is no different in this arena than it is in any other arena. I'm glad you just said that. Yeah, right? That's important. It's it's it's his grace, you know, as as as we talk about in the hymns, his grace is new every morning. And it doesn't say his grace is new for the you know the grandma who you know had a slightly angry thought. His grace is new all the way to the end for the law enforcement individual or the private individual or the military member or whoever it is, anybody who has something weighing heavy on their conscience, right? Um God's laws written on man's heart, we know. And that is what that is what you know, back to your earlier point or your earlier, yeah, your earlier point of the sovereignty of God and all these different things. I've seen a number of these guys come to Christ since then. And it's rocky and it's messy and it's ugly. You know, you're talking about guys that you disciple uh who came out of that world. Um but you know, me saying what I said earlier about God not being impressed with the fact that you're part of XYZ team, super cool, you know, team they make movies about. The flip side of that is also really true. His grace is for you as well, right? Just because you're part of this unit that that did some really crazy things that that some of it's weighing heavy on you, whether you did something that that your questioning was right or wrong, or or it's just the nature, you did right things, but it's the nature of it was just dark, right? You took lives, you took lots of lives, you had to do it in a way that was violent. Healing of God, the grace of God, the the power of God. God wasn't surprised by any of that either, right? We we the humans have been at war for pretty much the entire time. I mean, we didn't get one generation into the human race before somebody got murdered. Yep. Right? Yep. That of course speaks to the fact it's not your environment that makes you a murderer. It's it's you know the depraved nature of man from the very beginning. And that's really when you were talking about the the kind of the sovereignty of God, man is depraved. And depraved men eventually lead to killing each other. That that that's the story of our history. Some of it is utilized by God, right? Romans 13. Because that wrath that they're talking about, like the Romans, we weren't talking about, you know, you got a knight in jail, right? Wrath was wrath. There's a reason Paul uses that word. And understanding that what was necessary for someone to do as part of the government or military fell to you that day. And you you need to come to a point where you understand, if you're a believer, you understand that you didn't surprise God there. And that there is there is that is utilized by God for different for different things. It's part and parcel of how he has set up government and military and all these different things. And if you are not a believer, then there's forgiveness at the foot of the cross. And it's not special for, you know, we look at uh I use this all the time when I was in Afghanistan. I was talking to one guy, uh, we're in the middle of a firefight, right? And it's been going on for a while, and we we've kind of kept them back. They're they're just they're trying to run in and they're just not making any progress, you know. And he and I got pulled off the front uh just to rotate people in and out, you know, refresh ammo, whatever, all this stuff. And uh I'm sitting there talking to him. I've told you this before, but I'm sitting there talking to him, and this dude is like, I mean, he's tatted up, right? He is he is he's got the full sleeves, he is yoked up. I mean, the guy is a stud. He is he is the absolute picture of what you look at of an operator, like like in on the video games and all that junk. Big man beard, right? And um we had had gospel conversations, sorry, leading up to this, previous to this. Sorry, just punched the microphone. Um and uh um I'm sitting there and and and we're talking and uh we're just getting hydrated. Like I said, it was like 100 and something degrees and all that kind of stuff. We're just getting hydrated. And I'm talking to him, and and I asked him, I said, hey man, you know, people always ask this, but just like if if either of us dies right now, how do you how do you meet God? And right about that time an RPG went over. And uh I was like, if that RPG right there lands right in between us, and we both are killed instantly, not so much, not so much as a time for even a thought. We're both killed instantly. How do you meet God? Do you meet him as friend or enemy? Do you meet him as a child of the kingdom or is or as his enemy? And um, you know, you're often heard the phrase, you know, no atheists and foxholes. There there are, you know, but um, but it was a it was a it was a time where I really saw the sovereignty of God really on display, right? We believe in the sovereignty of God, we have a high view of the sovereignty of God, high view of his word, high view of his role in in salvation. Um, but I but it but sometimes it's just on display right in front of you, right? And that opportunity for me was was one of those. And to your point, that's literally, I don't know, I can't remember the amount of time, two, three hours before the story you want me to tell.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:42

Oh, oh wow, and so I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:45

And so, you know, I knew that I was on this deployment for many reasons, right? Many reasons only God knows I'll never see some of them I get a slight glimpse into. Um, but I knew. I knew at that moment I was at minimum on deployment for this reason to talk to this guy in this moment under these circumstances. And so we finished our conversation, and the long and the short of it is he eventually becomes a believer. Um but um I I I think it was a couple hours later. I details kind of a little fuzzy, but um I'm sitting inside of a of a you know in uh structure and there's a window in front of me. And I've um punched out the top part of the window so I can get access and kind of they're trying to push in from this direction, so so we're making efforts to prevent that. And I get a call that some of the guys had found a whole huge actually, they had found it was the SEALs, they had found uh that explosives stash that I mentioned earlier with a stack of suicide vests and rows and rows of Iranian C4 and all kinds of stuff. And so they wanted somebody to do the SSE on it. So they called over radio. Uh, I responded, said, yep, okay, you know, we've got a little bit of a lull in the fight right now, so you know, got another guy to take care of my sort of direction. Uh he was in a different spot, but anyway, so coordinated that, went off, did my thing, came back. I don't know, it was probably, it was probably an hour later, something like that, um, and and took my position back up. And I looked down at the glass that's on the bottom part of the window, and right chest high where I was, there is what looks to be, I don't know for sure, but what looks to be a 762 round. So whether it was an AK or a hole, I should say, that an AK, either an AK or PKM round had come to, right? 762 round had come through. It was a nice, pretty hole. Glass was, I mean, glass was a little cracked, but it wasn't, it wasn't like shattered. It was a bullet hole right. The bullet hole right through it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:32:10

And you had been sitting there for a while. Oh, yeah. As soon as you walked away for that short time. Yep. And that's when Brody mentioned you realized the Lord will take me when the Lord wants to take me.

SPEAKER_01: 1:32:22

And that's really, that's really what where my head was going into it. And again, the reason to not not just study like you and I were talking about earlier. Stop studying just devotionals. Get your face into the depth of scripture. Ask the hard questions and go find the answers. They're there, not all of them, right? We we run up against the wall on various things. Brendan and I have been talking about um a lot of things lately, especially with respect to spiritual warfare. And there's just some questions that just aren't answered in scripture. And that's fine. You got to be okay with that, right? God has told us what He's told us and no more. And it is what it is, right? Bow your knee and keep moving. Um, but um I I understood it, but that became super real in that moment. That if you are living in the middle of the will of God and you're walking with, I don't mean you've got the right job or you got the right school or you got the right whatever. I mean you're walking with him, right? And you're doing what you need to be doing minute by minute, hour by hour, not perfectly. We all stumble, we all fail and got to go to the cross for forgiveness. You are virtually invincible until he says otherwise. Your life is his in the first place, and whether you admit it or not, it's still his.

SPEAKER_03: 1:33:46

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33:47

It's it's like it's like saying, you know, I made him the Lord of my life. No, you didn't make him anything, right? You fought in it, you submitted to it. You just submitted to his lordship, right? Um, and over the years, my view of the the high the high view of the sovereignty of God has really only grown higher. Um the more I see in scripture, the more I see in life, the more I see in all these different things, it's only grown higher. And um, you know, that was just one moment. You know, you could certainly, you know, for people who who who um don't um, you know, are not disciples of Christ or not following the Lord, you know, they're gonna chalk that up to, dude. I I got a million stories of luck just like that, right? It went through my helmet, it went through you hit my plate carrier, whatever. We got a million stories. And that's fine. That's fine. But I know differently.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:49

When you know what you know, and you know that you know, right. There's no there's no luck.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:55

Yeah, there's no such thing as luck.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:57

The proverbs even speak to it. The the lot is cast, yeah, but the Lord determines how it falls.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35:03

Exactly. And I'll I'll you know, I love Miss Marcy Sproul. Um, and I loved when the way he describes it, that there is no, there are no maverick molecules in the universe. Not one atom, molecule, subatomic particle, uh, physical element, spiritual element, element of energy doing anything outside of the solid sovereignty of God, right? Because God is either sovereign over all or he's not sovereign at all, because that's the very definition of sovereignty. Of sovereign.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35:41

Colossians 1, in him, literally the phrase is all things hold together.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35:46

Without question. And on that, complete rabbit trail, but I can't have I I can't hear you quote that with not saying this. For those out there that you know that might be saying, God can't forgive me because uh, you know, I've done X, Y, or Z, whatever X, Y, or Z happens to be. See if I can get through this without when he was arrested, he held together the torches and the bindings. When he was beaten and flogged, Christ held together the whips. When he was spat upon, he held together the people and the spit that was on him. The purple cloak, the crown of thorns, all held together affirmatively by his power. When he walked up the hill, the cross that he was bearing, the cross that was carried for him, the nails, the hammer, the very dirt he's laying on, all held together by the word of his power. And finally the cross and the spear in his side, tomb he was buried, on and on and on and on. Christ did that in obedience to the Father's will to accomplish salvation for us. All of that held together by the word of his power.

SPEAKER_03: 1:37:09

Yeah, I've never thought about that. That's rich. That's so good.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:13

I mean, it gives new, it gives new, at least for me, it gave new life to the understanding. Yeah. When Jesus said, No one takes my life from me. I lay it down of my own accord. He meant all of that. Yeah. And so these understandings, these theological things that are that are not new, right? I didn't come up with any of this. I'm just I'm just a doofus study in the Bible like everybody else. Uh allowed me to walk out of a lot of this stuff, whether it was Navy Art or it was the deployment or it was any number of things, standing in the hallway of a of a pill dealer's house and just kind of holding security on the house while other guys that were doing investigation were doing their thing and interviewing a guy. And and and the little girl who's five or six comes and is is just talking to me and showing me her her room and uh you know, kind of showing me her toys, and cutest little girl, and and she's got her little princess dress on and she's twirling around and she just wants compliments. And you know, I'm talking to her, that's great, it's beautiful, whatever. And then I get the look from my buddy in the living room after the guy just confessed to molesting this little girl for years. How do you process that? How do you what do you do with that? Right? My flesh says, go put a bullet in a dude's head. Right? Be done with it. Immediate justice. But I can't. Right? Legally can't, but but vengeance is mine, says the Lord, right? I will repay. I will and one of the ways he repays is is that that three-letter acronym that was on my chest standing in that house is FBI. That I was there as an administer of justice with our system, that he was going to get hooked up and go away and and face the justice system. Now you can certainly have a conversation about whether our justice system functions correctly, is broken, you know, administers right punishments for certain things, uh, legitimate conversations. But all of this is answered in scripture.

unknown: 1:39:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39:33

And so that's that's that that knowledge and understanding is what allowed me to rest, and maybe that's the right word, to rest on the sovereignty of God. I don't have to shoulder this. I don't have to answer all the hard questions. I rest on his sovereignty, knowing that I'm responsible to be his slave, be his servant, do what, do whatever I'm supposed to do, knowing that the greater answers and the greater power is his, not mine. I don't have to perform in that way. I don't have to have all the right answers.

SPEAKER_00: 1:40:16

Yeah, and I I think one thing that stands out, we before we started recording today, we were talking about JB was saying, you know, there's there's the the veggie tales theology, the veggie tails lens of looking at this the great stories of God's sovereignty and Israelite history. And we do a series on here called Beyond the Flannel Graph. And I've I've spoken a lot on on David here. I think it might be fun for us to do a follow-up episode. Uh, years ago, one of the early seasons, I did a thing on this. But when David, when David brings supplies to his brothers in the battle, there's three brothers in the battle, and there's there's questions about why we're only three of them there. There was a conscription limit for one family, or was there for whatever reason, for whatever reason, three of his brothers are there, nobody else is there. David gets tasked with bringing cheese and resupplies and bread to his brothers, and so he gets the donkey ready early in the morning, travels by foot, leaves his donkey, shows up at the battlefield. There's this misconception in people's minds that David's this little kid that shows up and it's just he's overwhelmed by the moment, excited and big-eyed, and whoa, there's the army, and man, these guys are awesome. My brothers are awesome. And there's a battle in that when he goes down there on the battlefield, he's just a little guy with big faith, and God blesses it. But people, I think something dawned on me about 10 years ago studying this. And it was in the moment when David, you remember David goes into Saul's tent. So David shows up at the here's the chain of events. David shows up and he's bringing supplies, and he hears, he goes down to talk to his brothers, and he hears Goliath come out and chat make his challenge, and he gets angry. I mean, pissed. He is wholly righteous indignation, and he's like, What is this? You see, the concept that had always been given to me was David is like this little kid, but in that moment he is an angry warrior because if you back up one chapter in the Bible, that's in 1 Samuel 17. If you back up one chapter, David is described prior to this event. David is described as a man of valor, a man of courage. He's proven and accomplished in battle. And those battles would have probably been when he was fighting lions and bears and possibly marauding or raiding tribes from the south that are trying to take their sheep. He's a seasoned guy. He's 17, 18 years old, say 17 years old, and he's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go kill him. David does not have to process what is my view of the sovereignty of God. In that moment, he just lets his indignation go. And he's like, I'm going to take action right now. I'm gonna go kill this guy. And so he ends up in Saul's tent, and Saul says, Okay, you're gonna go kill this guy. He said, I'm gonna go kill this guy. Saul lets him go. Do you remember what happens if David loses? What does it mean for Saul? The rule was if David had gone down there and lost, Saul would have to become a slave to the Philistine king. So when Saul sends David down there, he's not just sending a kid, he has, he's hanging the hope of Israel on this kid's shoulders. And he believes he's the best, uh he's the best option for Israel to go fight this guy. And the the moment I go into in my mind right there is you can't prepare for that moment in that moment. David showed up that day having walked with God, written psalms to God, worshiped Yahweh, prayed to Yahweh, lived by faith in Yahweh's provision. David already had developed a high view of the sovereignty of God. So when it came time to put a bullet in Goliath's head, it was there was no there was no hesitation. And then the other thing is when he cut his head off, this is gonna sound very gruesome, but yesterday I cut the head off of a three and a half-year-old buck that I shot with my bow. Two evenings ago, I shot a buck with my bow. Yesterday I cut that deer up, I cut its head off right below the jaws just to skin out the skull. It'll go in my barn with the 100 other ones. It is not, that is not a clean endeavor. Taking that head, and that's a that's an animal, that's a 150-pound animal. Not a that dude's head was massive. That was a violent post-mortem act of him removing that guy's head. And I say all that to say uh David did not get in that moment and then have to figure out what's my theology of the sovereignty of God. He acted on it. And so the word to dudes that are in the military or in law enforcement, it is critical that you develop your theology before you ever pull the trigger. And I think that's one of the things that stood out to me in listening to you explain all that is you knew who God was before you got there. Now, there's also a really cool, we've had Garboseman on here and other veterans who their story is they got home, they're a wreck, they're turned to drugs, they're they're they've they're they're they've committed adultery, their their life is off the rails, and then God saves them. That's a different testimony, different story. But for the guy listening that's considering this, this is what you gotta think about. And and uh so anyway, uh that's I appreciate that a lot. We're gonna take a break.