No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
Beyond the Teaching | Diving Into The Son of Man
In this episode, Brody sits down with Rob, JB, and Zay to recap this year’s Fall Retreats at Snowbird, where the theme was The Son of Man. Together, they follow that title from Daniel’s vision to the Gospel of Mark and on to Revelation, showing how Jesus’ authority, suffering, and glory all come together in one story.
You’ll hear highlights and a behind-the-scenes look at the retreats as they unpack why teaching through one Gospel brings clarity and depth. They also share a simple way to keep studying: read Mark, note every “Son of Man” reference, and connect those threads back to Daniel 7 and forward to Revelation 14.
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Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.
Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.
SPEAKER_06:I'll start off by saying fall retreats are my favorite of the year. And that's a big that's a big thing to say because summer's obviously the summers. You can't really compare summer to everything else. Right. Summer's its own animal. But then during the school year, we have the Christian school retreats, we have fall retreat, we have winter switch, we have spring retreat, we have pure and holy, we have the college retreat, uh multiple adult retreats, including the college retreat and marriage conference, men's be strong events, women's respond events of all those through the year events. I don't know. For me personally, the fall retreat is my the one I look forward to the most. And I think it's because the time of year is fun.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:It's just so it's so nice. Oh, it's so cool.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, the weather all for all three were like perfect.
SPEAKER_05:I was telling Austin it was super cool how it wasn't raining or anything like that. And then it was on the last fall retreat the next Sunday, it started pouring rain. And I was like, that's so cool.
SPEAKER_06:As everybody left. The second one was cold. Like the second one, we sold a pile of hoodies, and there was kids showed up here from like South Alabama, South Mississippi. Oh man. They didn't have you know, they're coming from 90 degrees, right? And it was like in the low 40s, and people were bundled up in the sessions. We had to turn the fans off.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:It's that first little feel of fall. And then and I mean I'm excited about this weekend. I love the marriage conference, and I'm excited about you know the the the leaves are turning, it's supposed to be really nice weather, but yeah, fall retreat, that's is my favorite. It's interesting, there's always groups that come. We had a couple groups do this where they have kids leave after their local high school football game and get here at two in the morning.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Which is kind of crazy because it's already such a short weekend. It's so short. Yeah. So that like that one church, they came from Middle Tennessee, uh, First Baptist Manchester.
SPEAKER_03:Yep.
SPEAKER_06:They arrived, those kids, they were getting here at like three in the morning.
unknown:Dang.
SPEAKER_06:On Friday night, Saturday morning. And it was a pretty good chunk of kids.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Is that the church where the first crew showed up maybe like three in the afternoon? Right. Was that them? Yep. Okay. And then the rest of their church showed up.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they they have their homecoming football game high school homecoming game.
SPEAKER_06:And then we had one group uh in Far Retreat one. We had a group that chose that one because it was their favorite college football teams bye week. Yes. They're teaching. And last year, that that same group, they're the ones I've told y'all this. I won't say who or what team or anything like that, but last year they were I was trying to have a conversation with them. And these are people that have been coming for years. Right. And I just go walking up there to talk to them, and there are about six of them piled around a phone watching a football game. And I was like, I mean, I didn't exist. I'm not in the world. Uh-oh. They ignored me and like brushed me up, and I was like, okay, all right, all right.
SPEAKER_04:Probably, probably Alabama fans. They're the worst.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, you just can't stand those Alabama guys on there. It's a rough year to be a uh Tennessee fan or a Georgia fan with that Alabama tide rolling on it. Yes.
SPEAKER_04:Anyways, let's uh talk about Zay Zay got bragging rights this year.
SPEAKER_06:Yes. Yeah, so that group that was funny. Um I asked them, I said, I said, man, y'all, y'all don't have to I I brought it up. I said last year, when that football game came on, everything, the world stood still. Y'all don't have to worry about this week. They're like, oh yeah, that's why we chose this weekend to survive.
SPEAKER_03:All right.
SPEAKER_06:That's so funny. Yeah. Okay. Um, I do want to we just before we went live, I was uh or started recording, I was telling this. So the teaching focus for Fall Retreat was the Son of Man. Um and we looked at all of that through the Gospel of Mark. It was the Gospel of Mark specifically. And we'll do that a lot of times. Like was it the summer when we did two summers ago when we did Life of Christ and we did it all in Luke, right? Yeah, the authority of what's authority of Christ. Authority of Christ, yep. The authority of Christ, and we did it all in the Gospel of Luke. And the reason we do that, if if people are curious, and and probably most people don't pay attention, but some people I know do. And for those that do, uh the reason behind it I think would be helpful. And for those that don't pay attention, I'd like to draw your attention to it. It it gives a cohesiveness to the teaching that uh is good for that student to follow up. Like they go home and they can spend the next few weeks studying that one gospel and see familiarity in those texts where if you did one out of Matthew, one out of Mark, one out of Luke, uh, some of those don't like there's stories that Luke covers that Mark doesn't, or you know, and so um then if you say we'll go read all the gospels, which we want them to do, but it's kind of a neat they could they could go that next week and work through the I mean I worked through this past week I worked back through the Gospel of Mark just looking for those, you know, Rob's message was in Mark chapter eight, and I I went back through that a couple times. So um that's why we do it that way, but we're gonna get into we'll get into the significance of the title Son of Man, but I I it was the Friday night intro sermon, and I only did this on Fall Retreat three. The first two I didn't do it, but the last one on Friday night I said I was gonna get to the point of Jesus has a bunch of different names he's called in scripture. Um but son of man is the one he prefers and uses the most of himself, and the two jokes I was not jokes, but like the two illustrations I was gonna use, I was gonna talk about nicknames. Do you have a nickname that you prefer? And then the second one, I was gonna kind of make a joke about when people speak in the first person or third person, right? When they reference themselves in the third person, you know, like so. If JB would be talking and she would say, Well, JB's hungry, so she's going to lunch. You know, it it can be funny, but it can be weird. Yeah. But Jesus does it a lot where he says, the son of man, and he'll refer to himself in the third person that way. Um, so I was gonna, I was gonna, I had a little spoof I was gonna do about people that talk about themselves in the third person, but I didn't get to it because the first part of it, I was like, who's got a nickname? I'm thinking in a room with 500 people, between students and staff, 500 people probably in that room. I needed uh give me some nicknames. Which my wife is up there on the drums, and so I'll I'll I'll start. I'll start let's get it rolling. I call my wife Little for 30 some years. Everybody's called her little. That's what she goes by. That's a nickname. Her name is not little, her name, little is not sure, her name is not something with the word little in it. So anyway, so hands start going up, and the first hand goes up, and I'm like, what you got? And this kid is like, My name's Madison, and everyone calls me Maddie. And I was like, Okay, well, in my mind at this point, I'm thinking that's not a nickname. But I guess it is. I don't know what's the definition of a nickname. Maybe I'm the fool.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe I'm the yeah, I don't know strictly, but I would say most people use nickname as yeah, it's not actually your name. Part of your name, yeah, shortened, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, because what's your full name? Uh Robert. And what do we call you? Rob. And no one's going, oh, that's his nickname. Nope. Yeah. He's not really called.
SPEAKER_01:Every once in a while, I'll have somebody walk up to me and say, Oh, so uh, and they blink a lot. Is Rob short for Robert? And like, uh it's everything I can do. Not to be compared. Not just to yeah, make it feel completely stupid, but like, you know what it is? It's I just dropped the Ert sound. Just it's it's that name minus Ert.
SPEAKER_05:Man, it's very creative. Uh my dad, his name's Daryl, and he pronounces it Daryl, but he said his nickname is Darrell. And I was like, he's trying to convince everybody that when he was younger, everybody would call him Darrell as his nickname. And I'm like, you're delusional. That's the same name with a different pronunciation. That's all you do, right? Right.
SPEAKER_06:And I'm like, okay, your name is My name's Xavier. And you go by Zay. Yeah. That's see, that's abbreviated. Is that a nickname? Right. We're just saying. I would even say Joy Elizabeth, abbreviated down to JB. Or Joy Beth. Or Joy Beth. JB, yeah. Yeah, we're just shortness up. Yes. A nickname would be, you guys have heard me talk about all the guys, all the dudes in my family. Right. Yes. Duke, Mooch, Paco, Cobb, Biggie. Those are nicknames. Yeah. Agree? Yes, agreed. So when I said, Hey, uh, any nicknames, you know how many nicknames we got? Zero. You know how many kids raise their all of them. I'm thinking we need to do a breakout session on nicknames. Here's what a nickname is. Here's what qualifies. That was pretty funny. That is funny. The one kid. Finally, I couldn't take it anymore. It was like, it was like the probably the twelve. And I should have just stopped the exercise. I was like, I want to get one nickname and then I'll celebrate it, you know. I want one dude to say, Everybody calls me cornbread, because when I was little, I ate cornbread all the time, you know, or whatever. The one kid goes, and and and they're all pointing at him, and he's going, he's real excited. So I'm like, what you got? And his name was Cameron, and he said, But everybody just calls me Cam. And I was like, man, I was like, I I think I kind of see how they got that.
SPEAKER_01:And they're like, mm-hmm. They had a great time. It it it was such a good opening, maybe not for the point that you heard driving to, but they just all had such a good time. They were into it, they were engaged. Everybody's into it. That's what it's like their buddies.
SPEAKER_06:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:That's funny.
SPEAKER_05:I feel like there might have been one guy. I think he played football. And he said, Everybody on my team calls me this.
SPEAKER_06:It was still the major pain. It was yeah, his last name was Pain. Okay. Everybody called him Major Pain. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:That was a good one, but it's still part of his.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. That one would that one would maybe have passed. And I got real excited when one guy said, My nickname's Link. And I was like, Okay, all right. What's your real name? Lincoln. Lincoln. Never mind. I got my hope so. Okay. Oh man. That's funny. So in the in the introductory message, we looked um on Friday night, we looked into Daniel chapter seven. And then Rob referenced Daniel Seven again on uh well, we referenced it every sermon. I I referenced it again Saturday morning. Rob referenced it Sunday morning. Um I can't remember, Spencer's not here, but I can't remember if he referenced Daniel Seven. I don't think he did.
SPEAKER_01:I did in one of them. I think the first one, and then he kind of changed up uh Okay.
SPEAKER_06:I missed the first one. His his first I heard him weeks two and three. And I didn't think I heard him uh reference it. But the point being, you know, we wanted students to understand the phrase son of man is extremely significant. I mean extremely significant because it is a reference to a vision that Daniel has in Daniel chapter seven, which would have which would have taken place about six centuries before Jesus was on the earth. And one of the things I love, love, love about Daniel's gospel is that it's been authenticated to have been written like like the the timeline has been authenticated through textual criticism. So we know that Daniel was written and not changed. It was written before, so Daniel prophesies about the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, the Roman Empire, and then the coming of Jesus. He prophesies all that stuff, and we can now look back at history and see that it all came to pass. It's a really powerful, it's one of those Daniel and and like the great scroll of Isaiah that you hear people talk about that as that is part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Really strong defense for, man, we have copies of scripture that can be authenticated. So Daniel was written hundreds of years before Christ, but then Jesus comes along and says, Oh, yeah, I'm the guy in Daniel 7, because the prophecy of Daniel 7 is you've got all these kingdoms of the earth that that Daniel sees brought before the throne room of God, who's called the Ancient of Days, and he brings judgment against him. And then Rob, I love the way you explain how Jesus is then brought in on clouds. If you maybe how you did that on Sunday morning was so good.
SPEAKER_01:So, you know, the the first clue is earlier on because it says that you know, it's kind of like you're Daniel's in his bed, but he's having this vision, and it says that thrones are placed, and then the Ancient of Days is seated, but it references another throne. And so even that right there, you know, for us looking back, you know, of course, you know, Jesus is gonna sit next to him, but you know, that original audience who else who else sits in throne next to the ancient of days, you know, the eternal God. Uh but then yeah, then Jesus rides in in the clouds, like the you know, doesn't say cloud chariot there, um, but that's kind of the the imagery you should have. And but yeah, I so I think it was when we were studying Daniel for Red Oak, and I had Daniel 7, that was the chapter I was assigned, or half of it. And, you know, right away, you know, there's all these you've got like these vague memories or scripture that'll come up in your mind, like, man, clouds are a lot, you know, but I didn't think much of it. But then when I got into the study, you know, and I don't necessarily like to use this term all the time, but like it really is a motif. There's there's a theme throughout the entire Bible from beginning to end of God's presence and clouds. And so it's not accidental, and they they all build on each other. Like so uh, you know, you think of Exodus, and you've got the pillar of cloud that is leading Israel by day, and that represents God's presence, his provision, his protection, his guidance. Um, and then you have the same thing, you know, when Moses begins to meet with God in that tent, right, and the cloud would descend. And then when he'd go up into the mountain and the cloud would descend, and he'd he'd meet with Yahweh. Um, and then when he's giving the instruction for the tabernacle, and he tells Moses, like, hey, tell this is actually after Aaron's sons have messed up and the fire comes down and consumes them. And he tells Moses, tell your brother, don't just walk up into the Holy of Holies. Like, and he gives him specific instruction about the Day of Atonement, and he says, My presence in a cloud will rest above the mercy seat. And so the significance of God's presence with the cloud is all the way through. Like, so when Dan, by the time Daniel comes along, that's not like a, oh, clouds, that's cool. Like, it's a fluffy image. It's a picture of divine presence, authority, guidance, illumination, like you know, like revelation. Um, and so when he says, I saw one like a son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, the reason why he says like, because the term son of man had been used before in in scripture just as human being. But the connection of the son of man riding the clouds is like, okay, he looks like a human being, but clearly he's divine. And so then he comes in before the presence of the ancient of days. So you have God the Father, God the Son. We use that language theologically, but it's it's what's happening. And Daniel's, he's putting it into his terminology. Um, and so then when Jesus picks up on it, he's making those claims. But yeah, so but the clouds don't stop there, you know, and this is where I geeked out when we did the Roman the uh Daniel study for Red Oak was okay, when does this take place? Like timeline, and uh the the you know, is it just Daniel looking up into heaven and this is going on in his day? Does that even make sense? You know, talking about okay, what's outside of time, what's inside of time? But what what caught my attention was Jesus is riding the clouds into the throne room. Uh, from where? You know, and that was the the question I had, and and I found awesome resources because it's like okay, my mind went to the Acts 1 scene, Jesus is ascending post-resurrection, he's he gives the disciples final instructions, and he is it says he is taken up in a cloud, okay, out of their sight. Now, whether he continued physically traveling in that cloud or, you know, either however far he traveled, but what I believe is, and because then the angel says, Hey, he's gonna come back in the same way that you saw him go. I believe, and you know, I say I believe it's not my like this, goes all the way back to the church fathers. They made the same conclusions of like Jesus ascends in the clouds, and for him, the next thing that happens is Daniel 7. He's he's going uh into the presence of the ancient of days, having accomplished the atonement, and that's when he receives uh the authority and okay, like dominion over everything, of course, because he's just crushed the head of the serpent, and he's just purchased all the citizens of his kingdom, right? And and then, you know, fast forward time in time from our perspective, you know, then Jesus had already made the promises like in Matthew 24 and um Mark 13. Uh, hey, you're gonna see the Son of Man come in the clouds with glory, you know, and his angels, he's he's coming back, and then you get the Revelation uh 14, which is just uh should I read that?
SPEAKER_06:Uh yeah. Because in that one, he's coming back on the cloud, he's wearing the crown. He's got the crown and he's got a sickle.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yes.
SPEAKER_06:Because he's gonna bring a harvest. Yes. And which goes back to his teaching about like whatever you sow, you're gonna reap. But then also, isn't there a parable where Jesus Yeah Yeah, so the idea when he's coming back with that sickle, he's harvesting those he's gonna bring into his kingdom. Right, but he's also you've got the picture of the grapes of wrath, he's harvesting judgment, those that are coming under judgment, and then it's that vivid picture of the blood flow into the bridle of the horse. Anyway, you want to read it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because okay, so yeah, I love that. He yeah, the first time he came, he's sowing seed, it's his word, it's the gospel, and when he returns, he's harvesting all the elect, uh, which is I think how Matthew he says it in Matthew, like he's gonna come back and gather together from the four winds and the corners of the earth all of his elect. So, yeah, Revelation uh 14, 14. Uh then I looked and behold, a white cloud and seated on the cloud. So, you know, more that picture of a chariot, right? Not like Tom and Jerry cartoons. Um, a white cloud and seated on the cloud, one like a son of man, exact same language as Daniel, with a golden crown on his head. So he's received that authority in the Daniel 7 vision previous to this, with a ground a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, put in your sickle and reap, for your hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe. Exciting. Uh so he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped. So, like, yeah, that your harvest is ripe. Like the picture of the gospel has done its work, like and the church has proclaimed the gospel, and all those who are have received it already, and he's he's reaping, he's bringing in the harvest.
SPEAKER_06:And that picture of him in that scene, he's riding the clouds, yeah, with with the crown, but he doesn't have a sword, he's got that sickle. Yeah. And so kind of timeline the way the way that you're describing this, and what I think makes a lot of sense would be Acts 1, when Jesus is ascending, he's ascending into what Daniel 600 years prior saw, where he's coming into the presence of God, and then Revelation is he's leaving that place to come bring about his harvest.
SPEAKER_01:So then John, yeah, John's looking at it, you know, for him, whatever 60-ish years after he saw Jesus go, ascend into the cloud, now he has this vision of Jesus coming back on the cloud, uh, which I would believe. I know there's different views on this, and I don't fall into a camp, but I believe that's future. That hasn't happened yet. You know, that wasn't I don't I don't think it was when the temple was destroyed. I think this is still pointing forward to the the end of days.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I think so. And uh it's exciting because in all of those well, in the Daniel 7 passage and in the Revelation 14 passage, he's called the Son of Man.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:So then for Jesus to continually refer to himself as the Son of Man, I mean it's a really big statement, and it was a statement that infuriated the religious leaders.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_06:Because we see that progression in the in the Gospel of Mark.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I really appreciate because like looking back to when I was in youth or when I was in high school, I really thought like Old Testament is just like an old book of laws and really old stories and genealogy, but the New Testament is where it's at. Like that's pretty much all I read, which okay, but I appreciate how always in sermons you guys do such a good job of like bridging that gap to make it easy to understand for middle school and high schoolers to be like, oh wait, this is talked about in the old testament, and now we're talking about it in the new testament. And like, one, obviously that's just kind of mind-blowing and like really cool, but I think for me, like in high school, that would have been even more mind-blowing of like, wait, no, they're saying the same thing, like they are agreeing, and it's not just an old book of laws or genealogy, it's like it is referring to what is to come and what will come and stuff. So I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01:That's cool. It's because it's like the New Testament brings that clarity to what was happening in the old testament, but the old testament gives depth to your understanding in the New Testament that you you just wouldn't have without it, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Right. That's a good point.
SPEAKER_06:The uh the Friday morning well I'm uh Friday evening rather message. I did a an exercise with students where we looked at every reference in the Gospel of Mark where Jesus uses the phrase Son of Man. And we said each of these will fall into one category. It's either a reference to his authority or his suffering or his glory. And that was a fun exercise. I got a lot of good feedback from that, and I got a lot of feedback from our small group leaders. They use that to sort of springboard through each share group.
SPEAKER_04:And Spencer and Rob both kind of like use that as well. And I thought it got a lot of like acknowledgement and crowd participation.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, which you know, when we had met previous to the first retreat, like you hadn't that hadn't been part of the conversation. And so the first time I heard it was the first time students heard it, but it just it clicked and it did it, it uh galvanized everything, you know, where it was like, okay, that's that's what's gonna tie everything together so neatly. Where I was like, Oh, I know, I mean, the passage doing Mark chapter eight, yeah, suffering is the heart of it, and then glory is on the back part of it, you know, like his suffering leading to glory.
SPEAKER_06:Well, it was interesting because when we met going into that week or coming uh towards the end of that week as we were going into the weekend, I had not that was I had prepared to speak um at the end of Mark Two, where he says, the Son of Man is Lord even over the Sabbath. Right. I was gonna start right there and then go into the first seven verses of Mark III. That's the end of Mark Two, and then the next passage he goes into the synagogue on the Sabbath and heals a guy's hand. And I was gonna make the point Jesus uses the phrase Son of Man to show that he's Lord over the Sabbath or that he has authority over the law. But when you were breaking down where you were gonna go on Sunday morning, that's what got so I've actually adjusted to I was like, okay, uh because I'm always if I go first, if I can know where y'all are going, I just try to set that up to like if we can link everything together. Because there's times where we do a sermon series and we never quite on the front end get it connected where it's seamless. But when we can, it really does help with the flow. And in the summer, it's not as critical because there's ten sermons and a bunch of breakouts. But in the when we're when we got a retreat with four sessions and a lot of kids are gonna miss one of them, then if we can connect them and and give it one cohesive thought. Yeah. So knowing that you were gonna go to suffering and understanding that the suffering of Jesus is what led to his glory, right? We have to paint that picture.
SPEAKER_05:I think something, and I know I talked to you about this, Rob, but I think throughout the first three, it was really uh easily grasped. I think by staff and students and youth leaders alike, of like, okay, this is when you're talking about how Jesus is Lord over the Sabbath, okay, this is showing Jesus' authority. And then we talked a lot about Jesus' suffering, but I thought something that was really cool. Not only did it come at the end of like it was Rob's final sermon, but it was at the end of your sermon where it talked about glory at the very end, and you kind of explained, okay, what is glory? Because we're talking about riding on the clouds, we're talking about like Jesus is coming from the sky, like these things could be a little bit confusing because if if I'm a little guy in middle school, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm expecting to see like clouds and light and a little flaky dust, you know. So like what is glory? And so I think it was really cool whenever you actually explained what is it and what does that mean? Yeah, that there's glory that's being revealed, you know.
SPEAKER_04:And once again, not even tied into Brody talking about his his conquest didn't come through a violent war, it came through the cross, and like it just all ties together perfectly. It's so good, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, kingdom through the cross, not through conquest. Yeah. And the uh on Saturday morning, we looked at the first two Son of Man statements by Jesus. The first one is when the guy, the paralytic, is healed, and his friends get him up on the roof and they lower him down. And I actually did that, I did that text as a sermon uh during the series on the miracles of Christ.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_06:Um, or the author or the Luke authority of Jesus Hunger. But anyway, yeah, I had done that recently where that that text was the sermon. But so we we looked at we briefly looked at that and keyed in on the Son of Man statement because. They lower this guy. All of the religious leaders are there. And Jesus, before he heals him, says, Your sins are forgiven. And it's just it's a really interesting visual. Like to imagine being there. And these guys have lowered their friend. They've gone to great lengths to get their friend in front of Jesus, including cutting a hole in the roof, getting him down in front of Jesus, and Jesus the first words out of his mouth. I mean, I I picture a pause while they get this hole cut.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_06:You know, the f the the blade of the shovel pops through, but it takes some time. Like, did everyone stop and watch? Did everyone back up and the dust is falling? I picture particles of dirt falling and then the first rays of light come through. And but they got to get it big enough for to shove this guy through. The picture I paint for the kids is it's a tiny hole. They shove him through feet first. Because my my childhood flannel graph image is he's being lowered on a stretcher.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What what would you do? Would you cut one that lower him that way? Or yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Would you cut a six by three hole, six feet long by three feet wide, and lower him on a stretcher, or would you get an 18-inch hole that you could get his little atrophied legs shoved through and just kind of push him through with a rope under his arms and lower him the six feet. There's low ceilings, you know. I mean, by the time the guy's head clears the ceiling, his feet are almost on the floor. It was and just get him down there. What a what a disturbing, di what a disrupting scene to what Jesus is doing. Jesus is sitting there waxing eloquent, answering the scribes' questions. He's he's philosophizing, philosophying, whatever that word would be. He's he's having theological discussion and discourse, and then hole in the roof, and they lower that guy, and Jesus does not heal him. He says, Your sins are forgiven. And those guys, in in the text, Jesus reads their mind. It says he knows their thoughts and he answers the question that's in their mind, which is, Who's he think he is? Right. Forgive sins, which is interesting because they expect him to heal the guy, right? But they don't recognize him as God. So he's so he responds to their thoughts by saying, What do you think is easier? To forgive this guy's sins or to heal him? I'll heal him, rise, take up your bed and walk, boom, he does it. But he says, This is a it goes back to the the series we did on miracles. The miracles are signs pointing to the identity of Christ. And so in that story, what we have is his authority. He says, I have the authority to forgive sin. So he right out of the gate, and we told students, Jesus declared himself to be Lord, he he declared himself to be God in the flesh. Anyone that ever says he didn't is not is not studying the gospels because it's there. Um when he declared himself to be the Son of Man who came to forgive sins, he's saying, I'm the guy in Daniel 7. And this and the work has started. And and so that first and then the the end of chapter two is where he declares himself to be Lord over the Sabbath. So we started with authority, we get to suffering that leads to glory. So I do think it's helpful to understand, and for those that are listening who are teachers, if you can teach the authority of Jesus, too many people only focus on his authority and it becomes sort of heavy-handed, legalistic just do the rules because he's a righteous judge. But more people focus on the love and gentleness because he's gentle and lowly, and they but but you can't do that and cash out on his authority.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:It's both. Yeah. So the authority is established, which makes the suffering so such an a huge theological piece because he has authority to forgive sins, he's Lord of the Sabbath, he has authority over the law, and I'm gonna suffer for my people. Right. Um, which then leads to his glory.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. For for himself being, you know, reunited with the glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the earth, but then the the humbling part for us is so that he can bring many sons to glory. Many sons to glory. Yeah, which is you know, you go back to the cloud uh theme, you know, Jesus is promising us that we'll be caught up into the clouds. Like it's not just, oh, you're gonna travel to the sky, which I hope we do. Right. Because yes, that's gonna be an awesome moment in and of itself. But it but what he's saying is, you're entering into my glory, like you're entering into my very presence. Like that's that's the hope.
SPEAKER_06:Man, what a cool thought. Yeah, that phrase, many sons to glory, bringing many sons to glory.
SPEAKER_04:I know Spencer's not here, but I loved his session this weekend. The like main, I guess, takeaway or like call to action at the end was get away and spend time in prayer. And like Jesus put a lot of emphasis and um intentionality in that. So, like, are you? And I got to work with students that last weekend, follow treat three, and that was really good. They responded really well to that, and all of them were like, Man, I don't even do that. Like, and it just turned into a really cool conversation. Of like, at one point, I think he says a lot of times we'll try to rest and relax by scrolling or like watching something, and that is the opposite of rest, like in our brains, we're like, Oh yeah, I'm resting. Right. Um, so that turned into a really cool conversation. So really grateful for Spencer's session. That was really cool.
SPEAKER_06:So good. And he did uh he looked at Jesus interacting with the demons. Yeah. Um which those are some of my favorite passages in scripture anyway. Um when you talk about authority, he has author because that that's we always try to anytime I'm talking about Satan or demons or devils with students, I try to help them understand. We we as a ministry, we've done this a lot, and from breakouts to sermons to share group conversations to help them understand the devil is not like the counterpart to Jesus, is not yin yin and yang or whatever that thing is, or it's not like um you know, when you think of um Marvel movies or uh Disney f Disney stories from childhood where you've got the the villain, the great villain and the great hero, and they're going at it.
SPEAKER_05:And it's like, oh, who's gonna win? Who's gonna win? You never know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. In those interactions with the demons, um Jesus establishes his authority and something that stood out in Spencer's I want I want to um close by pointing out something from Spencer's sermon and something from Rob's sermon that for me were my big takeaways from those two sermons. Spencer's sermon, my big takeaway was um he he doesn't when Jesus tells the he prohibits the demons from from declaring him to be the son of man. And I've always heard that and I've even taught it like I've always said Jesus is gonna reveal these things in his time. But Spencer made a great point. He said, He said, Jesus is saying, Don't go, I don't want you to be the one who's spreading theology. I'm gonna reveal this the way I'm gonna reveal it. Right. You don't have the authority to go reveal this. Right. So he binds them to silence.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Is a really cool point because I've always thought because you see that where Jesus says, Don't tell anybody, don't tell. And he'll say it to people too. He'll heal a guy, you know, he heals the leper at the end of Mark 1, and he's like, Don't tell anybody. And then the guy's like, goes, he goes and he's screaming and hollering. What's Jesus' motive for that? Well, to maintain order, he's got a he's got a strategy and a plan, and he's moving in a certain way, and it creates chaos anytime this gets, you know, gets spread the wrong way. But there's not there's not this theological framework of Jesus revealing that he is the son of man. So when the demons, when Jesus binds the demons to silence, Spencer made the point he's not allowing them to go say theological things. Yeah, they don't get to go identify, they're not gonna get it right anyway. Yeah, um, I thought that was super interesting. I I talked to Spencer about that. I've never thought of this. And then Rob, from your message, I think I texted you after the last week and just said, uh, I have never thought of this, but when Jesus is hanged on the cross, we know they hung they killed people and they they stripped them naked. That part of the humiliation was that they were naked, completely exposed, and Jesus hanging on the cross, naked under the weight of sin. You drew a parallel to Adam and Eve realizing their nakedness in the garden.
SPEAKER_04:That was good.
SPEAKER_06:Um, I was really good.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And even like that, I guess I just never thought obviously being crucified on the cross is humiliating, but Rob, you always do such a good job of like putting that in to perspective and like bringing that emotion of like, yeah, that is horrible. And like, even kind of said on all the children's books or flannel flannel graphs, it's like he's got a little cloth on or whatever, but it's like, no, he was like that is so humiliating. He was naked, yeah, bearing the weight of our sins, like even that alone. But then drawing, I think you drew another parallel.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it was the uh the the crown of thorns.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, yeah, yeah, that was so good.
SPEAKER_05:I think both of those kind of what you were saying, and if you want to finish up your thought, but I thought between the both of those, it brings like the emotion, the reality of it, not in just terms of like this is humiliating, like you were just saying, JB, it's not just that it's humiliating, like Jesus is bearing the weight, he's becoming the curse. Because in Genesis, which I think this goes back to the point that we were making earlier about the parallels between the Old Testament and the New. Well, you see in Genesis in chapter three, whenever the curse is is starting to take its effect, God says to Adam, Now the ground's gonna bring forth thorns. And you immediately see that effect that's that's happening from his sin. And then you fast forward many, many years later, and Jesus is literally physically wearing a crown of thorns, which is like symbolizing I'm wearing, I'm becoming a curse, right? And I'm taking it on. And so I just think that that point is is so powerful when it really hits home that you're like, okay, this is real. He's really bearing the weight, he's bearing the sin. He's he's in this moment taking on the punishment that all of mankind should have had. So, I mean, just just seeing that it was such a cool point. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, in the garden, the thorns and thistles, the nakedness that is exposed, Jesus on the cross, naked and humiliated, suffering for our sin with the thorn, the the crown of thorns on his head. Yeah, this is a powerful imagery. Right. The only thing I hated was that you did that Sunday morning.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_06:That should have probably been Saturday morning because that needed some share group discussion. And they got it. I mean, they they had they went to share groups, but that was powerful. Yes. Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_01:And it, you know, it it's like the reality of it. For me, it takes it from I mean, I think for sure, I know you feel this way, maybe y'all do too, depending on how you're raised. You know, it's when I first read a story or I'm hearing somebody preach, I'm constantly fighting against flannographs. And and I'm so thankful for that, like at that stage of my life, like it was awesome. Or, you know, uh a cartoon uh version of a Bible story or even a movie that you know, like Jesus of Nazareth, that's I watched that, you know, Easter as long as I can remember. But it you know, visually it was pretty tame, you know, for the I think it was made in the 70s, you know. So I'm always fighting against that and trying to like go to the reality of it. And for some reason, those two things for me make it so vivid and graphic, but like in a in a very realistic way. And but it's also like I love the like master storytelling part of it. Like you know, you know, one of the things we always you know, you say about the Bible, you listen to a guy like Wes Huff and like how everything's tied together and how many different authors, different continents, different languages, but the one story throughout it all, and you're like, Oh, you know, and it's not necessarily an evidence in and of itself, but I stand back and all and go, only God, only God weaving in yeah, the nakedness, what does that represent? The thorns, what does that represent? And then, okay, Jesus on the cross naked with the crown of thorns, you know, and it's just like my and it's why we love stories to begin with. Every culture loves stories, and it's because like that's the that's the construct for us to understand the story, you know. It's just yeah.
SPEAKER_06:There was a guy, I was talking to a guy the other day, he's missionary in the Congo for 70, second generation missionary. Wow, phenomenal storyteller, and he's like I I said the other day, I the other day I was having a conversation with someone about this guy. I talked to this guy probably 10 years ago. But the other day, yesterday, day four, we're having having a conversation. We're we're kind of retelling some stories this guy told, and this guy's still living, he's in his 80s now. But when I met him, he was like 71 years old. He was third generation Congo missionary to the Congo. Wow. So his grandfather went into the Congo in 1918. It was right after World World War I, and it was like the first missionaries to get in there, at least in this area. And then his this guy's father was born in like that's around that time, so was was born in the Congo, or maybe was a little baby when they got there. And then this guy was born in 1950 or 40, I think 1945. So during the during World War II, they're in the Congo, like just they literally three generations of missionary work. So when I got this, when I met this guy in his early 70s, he had just come out of there. And so he, I'm like uh, and I had the opportunity to spend several hours with this guy. And I said, Would you please tell me, take me to your childhood, it's 1955, you're 10 years old, you live in the Congo, and I just got him telling stories.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And it was riveting. He told me stories about because nowadays it's very difficult to like like you can't go hunt wild game in Africa. You gotta pay these massive exorbitant fees and go through these outfitters and professional guide services. So this dude grew up in a time where there was still wildlife that that every year they would do a feast where they would go, these two missionary families in the 50s and 60s, they'd go out and they would hunt for three weeks.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_06:And they had this like off-roading Jeep, World War II era Jeep rig, and they would kill two or three Impala, they'd throw them on the back of this Jeep, drive them the 20 miles back, and they would get them all you know, cut up, and the villagers would start preparing the meat. They go back out and hunt. And like he told me a story about getting stalked by a lion, and I'm just they're they're on a perch overlooking this this uh valley where they're waiting on this herd of black buck or water buck or impala or something to come through, and they and they don't realize a tribe or what do they call it, pride, a pride of lines is coming up the hill behind them, and he they kill the front one. It's like this dude, I mean, I'm just on the edge of my seat listening to this old guy tell stories. He told a funny story about um being in a truck, they're in an old land cruiser chasing this, they're driving one night and they see this. It was like uh some kind of uh an antelope type animal, and they they're chasing this thing across the savannah or whatever, trying to run it down, and they finally they catch, they they hit it with the bumper and roll it, and then one of the dudes jumps out and and gets a knife into its throat. And and uh it was so crazy to listen to this guy tell stories, and I'm like, the word of God, we're we're tuned. Our hearts and imaginations are tuned for storytelling. And if people one of the things we we want to do at Snowbird, and I think we I think we got it right on this Son of Man series, we want to engage that imagination that people have so that they see the story of scripture coming to light in their minds. And what a master storyteller does is they bring you into that moment and they help you to see it play out in real time. I I told somebody recently, I love what they've done with The Chosen. I love that series. It's phenomenal, it's storytelling, and it's most amazing, it's it's done so well. I personally have not enjoyed it as much as a lot of people, not because of because it's not sound, but because I've already painted pictures of all these people in my mind. Right, right. It's like if someone's up what you've yeah, yeah, if someone played y'all in a in a sketch, I'm like, no, no, no, no, you know, or if you've read the book, right, created the images, and then you watch the movie, you know. Right. But and so for me, it my imagination is already so engaged with scripture. But one of the reasons I love what they've done with that series, or with you know, what what Mel Gibson did with the Passion of Christ 20 years ago now, it engages the imagination. And if if students will leave here having these visual images that we've tried to paint through scripture um and go home and become students of the word, it just changes the dynamic of how you see Christ, how you see the word of God.
SPEAKER_05:I think uh in a similar vein to what you're saying, or I guess maybe in in contrast, so you already have these images in your mind of maybe what specific people like what Peter or some of the other disciples might look like and they're portrayed in this in this show, and you're like, oh man, I didn't think they were like that, but that's just a show. And so I think it's really cool for students. Maybe they already have a certain image of what some scripture might look like in their mind, or maybe they might have a certain view of the gospel, and then they come to Snowbird and they're hearing sound teaching and they're hearing the word exposited or taught as it should be, and because they already had a preconceived notion, now they can come in and say, Oh, this is how it actually should be, and it's different because it's the authority of scripture, not a TV series. You know, so if their view might be a little bit skewed or it might be a little bit off, yes, I did have a certain view before I came here, but now I see the scriptures as they should be, and it can completely, like you said, draw them into it and then help them to see it as it truly is, and then uh Jesus, as much as he's revealed himself to us, is then seen by whoever is is uh listening, and I think that's so cool.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Well, got marriage conference coming up this weekend. Yep. We'll maybe maybe we'll do another one of these to wrap that up. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. We got a lot, we got a huge lineup of NSR.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:As we're recording this, we're getting ready to sit down to do parts two and three of an episode with uh a guest that I'm really excited for people to hear from. Um and we're in the middle of an amazing lineup on NSR right now. The feedback I'm getting is crazy. Had somebody talk to me this morning who had dropped by camp and just said, Man, I was weeping listening to the second episode of the Emily and Lewis Emily Foreman. Yeah. Um just powerful, man. That yeah, that episode that would have been not this past Monday, but the Monday before. Everybody I've talked to that's listened to that has just said, Oh my goodness, I'm I'm blown away. Like I I literally had to pull my car over. Or I'd talk to one guy, he said, Man, I was on the tractor, I think he was bush hogging or cutting corn or something, a farmer up in the Midwest that had texted me and or messaged me and said, Hey, I just listened to the part two of Emily Foreman's story, and I literally am weeping in in the cab of my tractor. Yeah. Pretty cool. Um, but we've got a couple more, we've got part two to the Ann Tuttle, which gives gets really intense because it gets into Ann's story.
SPEAKER_04:Story, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And that's coming up um next Monday. And then I'm excited for the next couple of guests we've got that'll take up four or five episodes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, good stuff.
SPEAKER_06:But hopefully this is encouraging and we'll follow up, maybe, maybe do something after the marriage retreat. Yeah. It won't be this long, but um, thank y'all for coming on. I really wanted to unpack all this. Such a go go do a study on the Son of Man. Go dig in. Look at Daniel 7, look at Revelation 14, and look at every time Jesus calls a chance. Everything in between. Everything in between, and you'll cover the basis. Yeah. Uh thank y'all.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at swoutfitters.com to see all of our programming and resources. And we'll see you next week on No Sanity Required.
