No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
Martyred, But Not Silenced Pt. 2 | The Price of Making Jesus Known in a Muslim Country
After a missionary was martyred in Africa, his family chose forgiveness over revenge and everything changed. Their story of grief, grace, and obedience sparked transformation in places no one expected.
In this part two episode, Lewis and Emily share how God brought their two families together through loss and calling, eventually leading them back to the very place of violence and tragedy with a message of hope. You’ll hear powerful accounts of facing the man who killed Emily’s husband and how she chose forgiveness instead of bitterness.
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Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so let's just pick pick right up. Um, so y'all, within 72 hours, you and the kids came home. And I'd like to I'd like to just talk about in this in this episode, let's just talk about what God is doing now, but let's get to that point. Let's get to the point that you two, I'd I'd like to for our folks to hear a little bit of your backstory, Lewis's backstory. Um, because you came out of a different kind of very traumatic experience, losing your first wife. There's so much redemption in y'all's story on so many levels and so many layers. It's one of the most powerful, beautiful testimonies I've ever seen. So why don't we start there? Uh let's let's hit pause, you guys coming home, which is around when we met y'all, not long after that, when we met Emily's family, the four kids, Heidi, Joshua, Ellie, and Piper. Had to do the we've changed everyone's names, and I had to really think through that because I didn't write it down. Um, but you had you y'all had you had worked in the same organization, correct? But in a different, completely different area, different category. And uh, and you had lost your wife sometime before that. Yeah. So why don't you give a little bit of your background?
SPEAKER_05:Uh yeah, well, I um so we are from the same sending organization. Okay. So I was aware of the work that uh Emily and Steven were doing. Uh actually, we were also not only from the same sending organization, but the same department that oversees certain frontier type works. So I was living in a northern city, big city in North America. Um, and but I fell under that department because our work was frontier focused. We were working with immigrants. We were living in a highly concentrated immigrant neighborhood of a northern city and working primarily with Muslims, Hindus, and a lot of other types of unreached people groups in this area. And so I fell under that same department. So I heard a lot of what Emily and Steven were doing because I would get reports and I was aware of them. Um I'd I'd only met them maybe once or twice at a conference. I think when they were on furlough one time, we we met up at one particular conference.
SPEAKER_02:And your wife was living at that point.
SPEAKER_05:And no, okay. I think maybe so my my my wife died in uh uh about six years before Stephen was killed.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Um, and so I had been working in this northern city. Uh, I lived there for 20 years. Uh, and about uh 12 years into that is when my wife died. And we had two small kids. I had a six-year-old boy, a nine-year-old girl when my wife died of cancer. Uh, after 12 years of us as a family working um in cross-cultural ministry with immigrants. And um, so I had connected, I I knew what they were doing, and kind of how kind of how the Lord brought me into this story actually was I got a phone call the day that Stephen was killed. And uh we had a mutual friend that was from this department that we were both working under. Um, and he called me that day, some point later in the day, and uh and he says, you know, he says, man, you know, Lewis, you're not gonna believe this, but uh Stephen was shot. Stephen was killed. And I I remember, you know, asking a few questions about their kids. I knew they had four kids, and I hung up the phone, and it was one of those moments where just you just kind of feel like there's rare moments where it just feels like the Holy Spirit just heavily comes over you emotionally. And of course, by this time, my I've been a single dad for six years. My wife died, and the Lord had to do a lot of applying grace for my family to continue in our calling, because a big thing was how do we do that? How do we finish our calling in ministry now uh through this loss? And I had to raise my two kids in that. And the Lord gave us grace and we figured out how to do it, and I thought, okay, we're gonna do this. And my kids, they did everything with me. We were traveling around the world, we were taking all immigrant teams uh from our city back around the world on mission, and and my kids did everything with me. And so I, you know, I already felt an uh a sensitivity to other people that go through loss, especially in their missional callings, because it it really wreaks havoc to your calling as in mission when uh some kind of tragedy like that happens. And so I hang up the phone and I just start to pray for the family. I start praying for Emily, I start praying for each of the four kids, and the Holy Spirit just came on me like it's only happened to me maybe two or three times in my entire life. And I don't even know how long I was praying. I I got up from the floor and I think it had already been a couple hours. I was I was under so much emotion. I was laying prostrate on the floor, weeping and crying for this family, and just saying, God, no, not another family. Well, this family was working for you in a place that nobody wants to go to. A hard place. Nobody's going there. And why does this have to happen? And I was just praying, I said, God help them, help them finish, help them finish their calling, help those kids get their inheritance. I mean, I was praying for each of the kids. I knew their ages generally, and I was praying for them that they wouldn't lose their inheritance, that that God would do something with this. And I mean, I was sweating and weeping. It was that kind of a prayer time. And I get up from that after a couple hours and just saying, Lord, whatever it takes, you finish this family's story and what that sacrifice was in that country, may it bear fruit. And I, you know, the funny thing, we talk about it now, but I had no idea at that moment that God was going to allow me to become a part of the answer to that prayer. You know, I mean, I was just praying for this family. And by that point, I've been a single dad for, you know, six years, and I had no intention of ever getting remarried. I mean, we just figured out how to do it now as a family. We're gonna finish our calling. And I was not looking to be remarried or searching for that at all. And but I now looking back, I know that in that prayer time, God had already decided that I'm gonna be a part of answering that prayer. And I think it may have been part of the reason why it was such an emotional prayer. And really, Emily, Emily and I met up uh at some conferences after that, over the next couple years following that uh time. Uh, we our paths crossed. Uh, she actually came through our city at one point and because she was visiting some people, and I said, Hey, come over to our let our team just pray with you and minister to you. And so she came, and this was just several months after Stephen was killed. And I could tell her and the kids are still very shell shell-shocked. And but we prayed for them and just tried to love on them. And then we would we would cross paths at conferences and and you know, again, never thought much about it, but always praying for this family. God help them, help them find their way of finishing. And uh, about maybe uh a year and a half or so later, we were at a particular conference and I was there sharing a story because by this time we're part of our work was housing Muslims. We had an apartment, three-story apartment building in in the inner city, and we were housing Muslims. And at any given time with our staff community, because we all lived in the building, we would have seven, eight, or nine Muslims living with us in our apartments. And uh, and so I was sharing stories at this particular conference, which was a frontier-focused conference about these different people that were housing and how God was using that and how Muslims were coming to the Lord by living with us, just sharing life with us and with our staff who were believers and living missionarily. So I was sharing this one story about uh an immigrant kid that was actually from the country that Emily and Stephen were working in.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_05:And he would, and we picked him up off the street in our city, I convinced him to come and live with us. And he was high identity Muslim, very scared. And I was sharing the process of his story of how he came to live with us and how God worked through that and how he came to the Lord. So dramatically came to the Lord that he gave up his visa, he was on a refugee visa to go back home because he couldn't stand that all of his family had never heard the gospel. And and over the phone, when he's trying to tell them, they thought he was crazy. So he's like, I'm gonna go back. And he, and so I'm sharing this story, and Emily is listening to this, and obviously afterwards she tries to corner me. It's like, oh my gosh, I we're here. We're stuck here part of the year, we're going back and forth, but we're stuck trying to figure out how to reach Muslims here. I need, I got questions. So that started this friendship. And we it was pretty much an email friendship because we're a thousand miles away from each other. And over time, this friendship got really deep as we're talking about raising our kids and our callings through loss. And and then over time, there a new conversation was coming, like, you know, hey, hey, Lewis, what what about, you know, what do you think? Would you, and it really was this. It was God saying, if I wanted to bring your two families together, would you let me? And it was the scariest conversation I'd ever had in my life.
SPEAKER_02:So that is awesome.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So we, you know, I I bucked that with the Lord for a while, struggled through it. God was doing the same thing with her. I didn't know it. And over time, the end of that obviously was God pulled us into this new idea of bridging our two families and really doing doing both ministries. We're working in North Africa, but also working with immigrants stateside when we're stateside, and we've been doing that for years now. We've actually, you know, uh been married now for 13 years. And uh, and our all of our kids, we now have eight kids because we've also adopted some twin girls. And they they go back and forth to North Africa with us, and they also work with us with immigrant communities here stateside. And uh so yeah, so it's a joy now because now we see all the fruit of what God's done through Stephen's death and through the sacrifice of this family willing to go back and show love and forgiveness. And it's phenomenal what the Lord's doing with that. And I get to be a part of it, which I never would have thought would have happened. Who would have thought? You know, and I was just praying for this family that God was gonna say, I'm gonna give you the gift of actually being a part of that story. I I would have never, never in my wildest dreams had imagined that. But it's a joy now to see what God's doing with He's doing phenomenal things uh, you know, through that sacrifice.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's amazing. It's like, but seriously though, just for people listening, uh you know, they might be driving down the road or they're on a jog and they got their airpods. Just hit pause and reflect on that. I mean, that's crazy. You know, and I joked, I was like, hey dummy, I'm putting this in front of you. But sometimes we need God to just like spell it out for us, like, hey man, look, just pause for a minute. Look what I'm doing. And this is one of those stories that's just it's it's so redeeming, you know. There's because people no doubt people were asking when Steven died, and you mentioned it you alluded to this, I think it was in the last episode, about what how's good gonna come out of this? I mean, 72 hours later you're on a plane coming home. But a whole lot of good has like a whole lot has come in in terms of redemption that I really want to get into with some people there, even associated with or connected to both in the government but to the killers, like associations to the killers. But then I mean, on another continent, on a different timeline, because this is none of this was outside of the scope of God's sovereign plan. You know, it's just amazing to me. It's just people need to just pause and go, okay, whatever because whatever you're in the middle of right now, the Lord's doing something, you know. It's just it's it's it's amazing, and it's just so incredible that God's plans and his ways, it's not just that they're bigger than our ways, it's that they're so complex and layered, and it's just I just thank you for sharing that. Because I've never gotten to hear so it's the first time I've ever heard from your perspective. Yeah, yeah. And it's just I mean, I'm like, my cup is so full right now, you know, because we were praying too. And we were praying for people we didn't know. You know, we had literally hundred people gathered and prayed in the staff meeting over this family. This is awesome. It's so cool. So yeah, but yes, so so a lot has happened and is ongoing, and I want to get to where y'all are headed. But let's go back to because there's I know a little bit of the story, some from the epilogue in the book, but then also from just knowing y'all and things that you've shared with Little and I. Because Emily and Little are very close, and one of those relationships you don't see each other often, but it's a really natural closeness. And so what are some things that you you can really literally see now in the years since Stephen's death? You can go, man, the Lord has really worked there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You know, I think I think it was John Piper that said something like At any given moment, God is doing about 10,000 things in your life or a hundred thousand things, and you might see three. Right. And so unfortunately, we tend to want to build everything, including our obedience on the three things we see. Sure. Um, and I'm reminded of the scripture, um, you know, a man's heart plans his way, but the Lord orders his steps. And yeah, looking back, both of us, we still to this day, 13 years later, we look back and think, what? Wow. And being able to see is like the diamond, right? With so many facets. It's like there's so many things the Lord was up to. And we had no idea, and we don't have the the intelligence or the creativity to be able to write the story God has for us, and not just us, but any of us, right? When we're obedient. Um But yeah, so we um when the Lord brought us together, which was also a series of miraculous events, um, or I would say series of fortunate events and how he spoke to not only us but our children and confirmed it. And um I I would say at that point though, my heart was still drawn to North Africa. Like I just and just like Kieran Andrews are saying, there's not enough there you didn't say not enough, I say not enough Muslims, you know. But that's how it was where we were when we lived in a bigger city. Um I would be looking for them, you know. And to be honest, I've actually followed a couple of them home. Like I just I wanted to know, like, oh, you're here, like I'm so excited. And but I'm surrounded by people who are like, oh no, they're here, you know. And so it was just really neat how the Lord put our stories together because it did fit, like it just fits. And um we went into this adventure not really knowing exactly what the Lord would do or how things would unfold and are still unfolding as we speak. We just knew that it's undeniably the hand of the Lord on our lives and on our kids and on our ministries. So we've I think we've both learned by now you just kind of buckle up and go with it. You know, just go for the ride, whatever the Lord's doing. And so it was really interesting taking Lewis back with me to North Africa when he visited for the first time. Actually, when I had announced before that I was getting remarried, you know, Steven was so, so dearly loved that I was worried, you know, that it might be awkward or whatever.
SPEAKER_02:How many trips had you and the you and or you and the kids taken back in before you took Lewis and went?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Several.
SPEAKER_01:At least six or seven.
SPEAKER_02:So you've been back a lot interacting with those folks as a single widowed woman. Mm-hmm. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so when I announced that I was getting remarried, it was like an an unbelievable celebration. I had not considered the fact that they were so worried about us. And in that culture, you don't just live your life out as a widow. You need a provider, you need a protector, you need like family means everything. So they were so thrilled, and they immediately, um, for good reason, fell in love with Lewis and and his two kids as well. They've been back with us. Um, and so we knew at that point that our two stories were basically the bookends of the mission, you know, reaching the unreached here and going to the frontiers to reach the unreached. Um and the Lord has used that in so many ways over the years. But every time we go back to North Africa, just the the things we're seeing, the things that we're witnessing that the Lord continues to do, um, it makes me so grateful that I didn't throw in the towel. Not that it was all pinned, you know, contingent on my willingness to go back and forgive, but it it's incredible to see how the Lord has used that. And forgiveness is such a foreign concept for Muslims. Oh, yeah. You know, they have ninety-nine beautiful names of God, and one of those is merciful, but none of them are like God is love or God is forgiving. Though they do believe forgiveness is possible, it's more like a pardon. Um, and it's but it's coming from a God that's really are arbitrary. Like you can follow all the five pillars of faith, do the best you can, die in jihad even. Well, actually, that's the one surety that you'll be able to go to paradise. Otherwise, no matter how good of a Muslim you are, you get there and it's still up to God whether he wants to let you in or not. You know, he weighs your good way works and your bad works, but it's still dependent on how he what mood he's in that day. And so for us to extend forgiveness, my family to f extend forgiveness, was really a powerful catapult forward in the next things that the Lord was doing in people's lives. And in fact, I was at one of my during one of my first visits back, I was staying with some friends because obviously I didn't have a house there anymore, but I was staying with friends, and the director of human rights caught when that I was there and he wanted to come see me. And he's sitting across from me in this home, and he he just goes right into it. He says, I don't understand why on earth your family would want to forgive these guys. Even we in Islam, we think they're dogs for what they did. How can you forgive? And that took me off guard. I wasn't expecting it, but it gave such an opportunity to explain. Well, actually, let me tell you, we follow Jesus, and you know, Jesus teaches us to love our enemies, and um he was not at all satisfied with that conversation. He left that house feeling like so confused. I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02:But at this point, were the the three guys incarcerated?
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm. Yeah, they were all arrested within three weeks of the the um the event.
SPEAKER_02:And what went into that? How did they know who had done it? Did they brag about it in that world of jihad and pretty bold?
SPEAKER_01:But I think not them as individuals, but broadly speaking, Al Qaeda took proud responsibility for it. Um, but thankfully the country's um intelligence, at like the the government works very closely with our central intelligence and our military. So they had, you know, the big guns. I mean, literally the FBI agent for our region our region was at in the place where we were evacuated before the day was over. Wow. And he came from a neighboring country. So they were on top of it, right? So of course, I think they had a lot of intelligence, a lot of help from not just our military, our our government, but other governments to France, other places. But yeah, they narrowed them down to these three men, and the one who had actually shot the gun had strapped himself with explosives and was about to uh commit a suicide bombing right there in front of our training center. And they had been following him, and they they caught him before he did that, shot him a couple times, and left him lying on the ground for a while as a testimony of how they will not tolerate terrorism. Um again, that's not what you're thinking as an American, right? Like they would do something.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh.
SPEAKER_01:He's suffering. He's lying on the ground bleeding out. Okay. Um, he did survive. And I had heard well, okay, so I'll just move forward and say they all three were judged and sentenced within, you know, a few months, and the one that shot the gun got the death penalty, even though in that country they haven't executed in many years. Basically meant he would spend his life in prison. The second guy who was there at the time got 12 years, and then the third guy who was a lookout guy got three years. And so they shipped the one, uh at least the one that shot the gun, I think, was uh located in a prison far in the interior um where they put the most dangerous criminals. Um and I had heard over the years that he was his injuries never really healed, and we were even wondering if he may die or whatever, but he survived. Um and hailed a hero, by the way, by other terrorists. Oh yeah. But um so yeah, so we're going in and out of the country, we realize that these guys may be in the very prison that we're working in. Wow. Right? And so um but they wouldn't allow access to the second guy. The second guy was there, the the the killer was in the far in the interior. And so my son actually, in one of his times there, he would go into the prisons with our our workers and you know, do the project work with them, and he actually asked the prison warden if he could have a an audience with the guy. And because they don't understand forgiveness and don't can't conceive of him actually um offering forgiveness, they just thought there's only one reason this guy, the six foot three dude, broad shouldered, wants to go in and see this guy face to face. And so they just kind of made excuses why it wouldn't be possible. And so um so he he left it at that, but wrote a letter and said, please have this translated clearly for him. And so that all of that was agreed upon. Um and he addressed the letter to all three of the guys, even though the one that had served three years was already released. Um so one of the one of the things we do when we go back all these years is take a medical team. Um in the first year that we took a medical team, I wasn't sure what I was in for. I just knew that there are, I mean, it's a very poor country, very much in need of health care, but the prison systems were like more like a concentration camp, and they were just terribly, tragically medically underserved. And so we decided as a team there, okay, let's just see what we can do and get some some people to join and just come and provide consultations and um health care for these people in the prisons.
SPEAKER_05:And this this first medical team was probably two years after Emily and I got married. So we were we were going together. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And it was just a few months after Joshua was there and tried to see one of the men who was involved in his dad's murder.
SPEAKER_02:And by that point, Joshua was grown.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he was grown. He was maybe 19, 18. I can't remember exactly. Um there's a whole other aspect to that story, too, how the Lord brought him to that point.
SPEAKER_04:Because I was about to say grown. That's still like extremely mature 19 to be able to do that. Yes, or even the courage to go back. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Well, and probably out of all four of the kids, I think he probably struggled the most with the idea of forgiving these men who killed his father. It was a deep struggle for him for a number of years.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So he was 13, you know, and he's the only boy. And I remember when I, you know, took each of the kids aside to tell them about what actually happened. Um, he was already in a room by himself, and I go in and talk to him. You know, all my girls, except for except for the youngest. Piper. Piper was bouncing off the walls, you know, like little seven-year-olds, they don't know how to process this, right? Right. Um, but I had a conversation with Ellie and I had a conversation with Heidi, and we just we prayed, you know, we cried and we prayed to well, they cried. I hadn't even cried at that point. I was still just trying to wrap my head around it. But just comforting them and praying with them and and just seeing the grace of the Lord. Like I saw no animosity at all. Just so much grace. Pain, obviously, but no animosity. But when I got to Joshua, he was sitting on the edge of the bed just not crying either, but just looking like he was like shaking because his fists were so tight. And just I can't imagine him trying to process this either. He already knew by then. He just knew something had happened. And I told him, you know, explain the situation, and he just wouldn't move, he would just sit there, you know. And so I didn't know what else to do except for pray over him. And as I was praying, it was a different kind of thing. I almost felt like I was sort of transferred to the heavenlies where I felt I was in serious spiritual warfare. And so I prayed specifically that God would protect him from the enemy and from bitterness and from so much that would naturally come about, you know, from such a tragedy. So I left him there. He just wanted to be alone. But a little while later, he comes out of the room so proud. Just saying, my dad was a hero. You know, still not crying, just kind of like trying to keep his chin up and a tough face. And but coming back to the US was a challenge. Obviously, for all of my kids, they were re-entering a culture they didn't know a whole lot about. I mean, they loved coming back on furloughs and hanging out with their friends and doing fun stuff, but like this was a different experience. The the reintegration, you know, of coming back and trying to find a place to fit, which is another reason why it's such a blessing that we had Snowbird. I mean, to just embrace them. And I I knew he was struggling, but he was a good kid. You know, he wasn't going off doing really stupid stuff. Well, that's debatable. He was a wild child. But I really didn't have a whole lot of problems with like the misbehavior necessarily. But like the attitude, and I could just tell there was some his heart just wasn't real soft anymore. Um but then fast forward a few years, right before he was there and asked to see the guy, the Lord had done something incredible in his heart. And we had this revivalist that had come through and was preaching and and he had us like draw an imaginary circle around us and ask God to do a revival just to do something miraculous in us in that space. And I didn't know what happened. He told me later what had happened, but he became emotional after. And he just said all he could pray was, God, why I don't know what's wrong. Like my heart is hard. And I you're gonna have to do something. And he immediately had this vision of himself but in Jesus' place on the cross, looking down at the the men who were killing him and saying, Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. That's when he broke, you know. I think that's the moment the Lord gave him a heart of flesh again. And he said at that moment he no longer thought about these guys with hatred, he thought about them with a lot of pity. Like he felt sorry for them. And so this is what led up to him wanting to see the guys, but they wouldn't let him, and then a few months later we're there with our medical team, which don't know why this is. Where are all the men in the world? But the only ones that responded to our medical uh uh mission were women.
SPEAKER_02:All right, I've got to insert here. If you're a dude, you're listening to this, you're a paramedic, EMT, first responder, PA, RN or doctor, you need to use what God's given you. There are opportunities. You don't have to go spend the rest of your life on a mission field, but you need to use, you need to not take your family to Orlando every year and go to Disney. You need to. We did an episode on this where I talked about our family vacations were spent all my kids' growing up years going and serving uh in another country. You need to think about it, because what Emily's saying is something we hit hard here with our young men. There's a deficit. Women are willing to go, men are not. Young men, especially. But we're we're we're working to reverse that. Anyway, all right, there's my rant.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I ha well I have to say here the the dynamic is not the same. You have so many amazing young men. It's refreshing. Every time we come here, everywhere we go, even in our own missions organization, like there's nobody like snowbirds. You're doing a wonderful job.
SPEAKER_02:We're hard on them.
SPEAKER_01:We're hard on these dudes. So, yeah, so I have this team of all women, most of whom are older than me, like grandmother types. Um except for the one medical doctor we had, she is Korean American, and she did like she was a medical doctor, but she also did traditional medicine, so she would do acupuncture. She offered to do it, and I'm thinking, there's no way. Like, that's such a foreign concept in a country like this. And so I was like, okay, bring it on, we'll see what happens. And so here we are, these five lovely women going into the men's prison where there's over a thousand men, and many of which are harmless, kind people who were at the wrong place at the wrong time or falsely accused. Obviously, some criminals too. But these women were amazing. They just went in. I'm sure they were nervous going in, but they just fell in love with these prisoners. And I think it really brought us to the true the depth of what we were doing. It was more than just bringing physical care. It made us the sheep on the day of judgment. He was sick and we came to him. He was in prison and we visited him. And it's like we truly felt in sense like we were not just ministering to these and poor poor and needy and just lost men. We were ministering to Jesus Himself, and it was so powerful. So we had two full exhausting days at that prison, and then our colleague, one of our colleagues who was helping arrange and coordinate each of the prisons, um, also a believer, um, but he came up to me and was like, Well, you know, we're going to the central prison tomorrow. And as you know, that's where they hold the terrorists. And um by then they had actually moved the boys from the juvenile prison over there too, because juvenile prisons sort of fell apart. And so, why in the world? They decided to move them shoulder to shoulder with a bunch of terrorists crazy on me. That is wild. So, but so it's a prison originally for terrorists and political prisoners, and then also the boys were there, and so my colleague came out, he's like, Hey, so tomorrow, you know, we're going to the central prison, but I am gonna talk to the commander and let him know that we're only gonna see the boys. And I thought, I just had to check in my spirit about that. Uh, and it didn't seem right, but I left it with him. He seemed so sure of himself, so I'm like, Well, that's fine, whatever. We get there the next morning, and he comes to me very um shyly and says, Well, I'm sorry. I talked to the commander, he said you're a humanitarian organization, and everyone here are humans, so you have to see them all. And so I was like, Well, that makes perfect sense to me. That's fine. Just let them know we're gonna see all the boys, all the boys, whether they're sick or not. Um, because our intention was really to love on these kids. And so we did. There were about 40, 45 boys at the time.
SPEAKER_04:Why would most of the boys be in prison? Same type of thing, like wrong place, wrong time. Mm-hmm. Petty crimes.
SPEAKER_01:They got in a fight in the street, they sold, you know, they stole a cell phone, a dumb phone. You know, like these are things that they were being but the problem with their justice system is they would they would be incarcerated, but they wouldn't have their day of judgment or be able to see the judge for sometimes two or three years. Wow. And these kids are now away from their mothers, away from their families. And so when these women were ministering to these boys, it was just so precious to see. They were many of them were just weeping. And they were good mamas too. They're like, your blood pressure is too high, and it's because you were too angry, and you know, and they would like preach to them. It was so cute. And um anyway, so yeah, we um saw all the boys, and then they bring in the two or three political prisoners that were there, and I really I mean, this is an in-depth story. I can sort of condense it if you want me to, and just give the overview. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:I'm good with whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:It's not like it's not like I'm bored.
SPEAKER_01:So I am uh translating for one of the ladies that is doing the consultations, and Dr. Kim is overdoing her acupuncture. By then, she's famous. Everybody wanted the needles. And it was so funny how many people were coming out of the woodwork saying, I have so much ache and pain, you know, or whatever, because I just wanted to experience the needles. Um, and so I was translating for a political prisoner, really nice looking guy, and he kept looking at me and smiling. And, you know, I mean, in that culture, prolonged eye contact or touching women is so taboo. Like, that's just not what you do. But he kept staring at me and smiling, and he's like, You don't remember me, do you? And I'm like, You look familiar. And I meant that sincerely because everybody does. But he's like, I was in your home in 2003, and I was like, Oh, okay, great, you know, and I'm just going along. We had people in our home all the time. And Stephen would bring people home that I didn't know. I just stopped asking questions and just provided the hospitality. And um, he just failed to tell me that this guy was actually the the son of one of the presidents that had been ousted. So he was a threat because of being the son of this president. And so I I knew that the president, the former president, was in the prison. I knew that Stephen had ministered to him, gotten to know him.
SPEAKER_02:Is this the coup that you wrote about in the book?
SPEAKER_01:No, this was one before that.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. All right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so anyway, it was just really fun to reconnect. And um, but shortly after our conversation started, everything became quiet. And they cleared out and brought in more guards with their AK-47s, and it just and they brought in the first terrorist. And it's this man comes in, looks really distinguished, and actually kind of nice. He's just scanning the room, you know, has this big beard.
SPEAKER_05:Well, if you back up a minute, we were we were told prior to this that morning, our colleague comes up to us and says, Oh, I need to let you know they've moved the the man who killed Stephen. They moved him here. We thought he was still in the interior. Oh. And at a at a high maximum uh facility, and they said, Well, we just need they've come here for an appeals case. So he's here in the prison, you know. And uh, and and of course, you know, um, this colleague is like, but but it's okay, we'll make sure that you know you don't encounter the guy. But of course, you know, Emily and her kids have been praying for an opportunity to have an audience with this guy, and but we didn't know what the Lord would do with that. So we were aware he was there, and I'm I'm working with uh another nurse at a different uh table in the same room, and Emily's in another one, and we both were aware that at any moment this guy could come in, and we weren't quite sure what he looked like at this point, and so but we just kind of left it up.
SPEAKER_01:Let me clarify though, I I had heard that they had were in the city and that they had just had their appeal and they were appealing to have their sentences reduced. Only his was upheld, and now he doesn't even qualify for a presidential pardon anymore, so he's his chances are over.
SPEAKER_02:And this uh to be clear, this is the shooter. The shooter.
SPEAKER_01:And then the second guy that had gotten 12 years, instead of his being reduced, they increased it to 15. Oh, and then they actually put a warrant out for the guy who had only served three years to have him reincarcerated and trying, and they were appealing to get all of them to have life sentences. Okay, yeah. So um anyway, I had asked our colleague that morning, you know, like I I know that one of the guys is here, you know, is the guy, the main guy here, and he said, No, I don't think so. No, I don't and I don't think you'll see the other guy. We'll make sure of that. And I'm like, it's okay, you know, if I do see the other guy, that's not a problem. But I didn't request to actually have an audience with him or anything. So anyway, I am ignorant of the fact that this guy is there, but he's the first one they bring in. And so I see this the president, former president's son, looks at the guy that walks in and then he looks at me as if he knows something. And he's just watching my face. And so they bring him over to another one of the ladies doing consultations behind us, and I overhear the conversation, and he's trying to explain, okay, yeah, I just have a lot of pain. Um, I was wounded so many years ago and just never really healed. And I'm having, he was like, I was shot in the leg and the hip, and my heart sunk. I'm like, this was the guy. And the one he's talking to didn't have a clue. And she's just like, Well, I'm sorry, there's nothing we can really do for you except, you know, give you Tylenol or ibuprofen, but you can try the needles, you know, the acupuncture if you want. And so he leaves, and a few minutes or almost immediately, um, our colleague comes in and says to me and to Lewis, you know, the commander wants to have a word with you. And so this guy had already gone out, like he didn't stop by the acupuncture at all.
SPEAKER_02:Did you ever like look over and see him? You just heard this. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I wasn't looking while I was, I saw him come in.
SPEAKER_02:When he came in, but at that point you had didn't know.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't know who he was. I just knew he was a terrorist. Was he aware? He didn't know who I was either. Okay. Wow.
SPEAKER_05:But I was at another table, and when he comes in, I looked up and I looked at Emily, and we both made eye contact, and it was this feeling of I think this is the guy. Like we both had that that sense. And the interesting thing up until this point, there were there were a group of terrorists that all came at the same time. They brought all these extra guards in, and they were all super hard. Like they wouldn't talk to the nurses because they're females.
SPEAKER_01:They wouldn't let the nurses touch them. They had to do everything without eye contact and without they were angry.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, they're sitting at the tables just angry. They don't want help. And there was like we're and we were already thinking, man, Lord, you got to do something here. We can't, we can't reach these guys, right? And so there was this was the climate in the room. It was, you know, everybody was hard and angry and resistant. And then this guy comes in and we make eye contact and think, I think this is the dude. But he doesn't want the acupuncture. He looks around the room, he decides to leave. And then it was just a few minutes later, while all the room is still filled with several different terrorists at different triage tables, but none of them want to make eye contact and they're all angry.
SPEAKER_01:They they seem really irritated that we only had women. Yeah, they were so angry. Which felt really good. I don't know.
SPEAKER_05:But then, but then the colleague comes in and says to Emily and I, hey, the warden wants to see you guys. So this is the climate of the room when we when we step out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So they take us out. Uh I at first I'm like, uh-oh, did we do something wrong? Are we in trouble? Yeah. Um, and so they take us around out into the hallway around to this small office where the commander's office was. And our colleague brings us in, introduces us, and says, um, the call, the the commander says, Well, first of all, I want you to know that we really appreciate what you're doing, and we know that you guys are not here to harm anyone, but you probably know that the man who killed your chief is here, and he would like to have the needles done, but we need to just confirm that you're not gonna do anything to harm him, that you're not taking any kind of revenge or anything. And wow. I looked at him, I said, Well, sir, you're the one that helped remind us that everyone here are humans, and we absolutely agree. Of course, we are not gonna do anything to harm anybody. That's not what we're here for.
SPEAKER_05:But this warden doesn't know who it is. He doesn't know who I am. He just knows that we're we're a part of the organization. No, he doesn't know that she's the widow.
SPEAKER_01:He just because he's a he's new. I mean, I'd never I didn't spend a lot of time in that prison anyway. Right. But anyway, so our colleagues like, wait, you don't know who she is? This is the widow of our chief that was killed by that man. And so the commander warden, he's just like, oh. And so he just very kindly goes into a really long condolence. I'm so sorry. I never knew your husband, but I have heard so many wonderful things. I really wish I could have met him. He was an incredible person. And then he remembers, because he had met Joshua, and he had remembered that he had written, you know, wanted to see the guy. And so he's like, you know what? He's right outside if you'd like to have a word with him.
SPEAKER_02:And oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01:I can't describe like what kind of what I feel. I hardly feel anything except for them just gonna fall out right there. Um, I mean, all these years, I again theoretically forgave this guy. Sure. And I fantasized about what it would be like to see him and what I would say. I mean, I thought, yeah, I could say, um, you know, it'd be really anyway. At that point though, I was flooded with like, I didn't know what I was gonna do. And so I was just praying so hard inside. I'm like, yeah, I would like to have a word with him. I was not prepared necessarily. So they bring him in and he, you know, greets me, shakes Lewis's hand.
SPEAKER_05:So let me just set the the visual setting for this. This room, it's the warden's office, which is only about maybe six by eight feet. It's a small room. Yeah. By this time, after he says to Emily, Would you like to see him? The word is spreading. She's about to talk to the guy who killed. And so, because there's a couple guards in the room with with us, they're going out in the hall. Now more guards are coming in and they're trying to cram people. Now we've got like three or four guards in the room.
SPEAKER_01:No, they're not in the room. They were guy like going sticking their head and they're looking in the doorway.
SPEAKER_05:They're looking in the doorway.
SPEAKER_02:Because they're they want to see this or because they want to provide protection.
SPEAKER_05:Well, there was like one guy in there with the warden that's there for protection.
SPEAKER_01:Protection at first, but then it became clear they're curious.
SPEAKER_05:They're leaving and going down the hall and bringing somebody else. Like they're all of a sudden, this word is spreading fast, right? The widow of the man that was killed is about to talk to the guy who killed him. And this room is filling up, and there's people in the hall, and so there's this heightened awareness of what's going on. And so at this point is when this guy comes in, he also doesn't know yet.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, he doesn't know yet.
SPEAKER_05:Nobody's told him. He just thinks he's coming in to address the leaders of the the concern.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:The leaders of the medical team. He wants to be assured they're we're gonna use the same needles, right? So he he doesn't really make eye contact with her. He puts his hand over his heart, which is what you do to females, and he comes to me and shakes my hand, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Very friendly, shakes our colleagues' hand, shakes the commander, the warden's hand, and so we're all really close.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. I mean, we're two, three feet from each other.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my goodness. Yeah. And so it's funny, leading up to that very moment, I felt really weak. Like I felt sick, kind of weak, because I just didn't know like what I was getting. But at that moment, I just felt stable. And so he looks, the guy looks at the warden and says, Well, and the warden said, Do you know who this lady is? And he gives me a brief glance and looks back and says, No, she's one of the doctors, right? And the warden said, Tell him who you are. And I all this is in Arabic. And so I said, Well, I am the widow of the man that you murdered a few years ago. And it immediately his demeanor changed. He was like this proud, poised sort of posture slumped, and he stopped looking at us at all and was just staring at the floor for a bit. And he didn't say anything. And then the warden didn't like that. He's like, Well, why do you do you have anything to say to her? And so he he tries to lift his chin a little bit. He's like, Yeah, I just want to say I really regret the death of your husband. And by the way, they came in to fight this appeal, they had changed their story, right? They were trying to now say, We were framed, I wasn't even there, I was in the hospital sick, trying to get the sentences reduced, right? And anyway, obviously, we know we have the forensics, we have, you know. So he's saying all of that, and you know, passing on his condolences, and he said, Yeah, and unfortunately, you know, I just appealed and it's it was denied, and now I'm just stuck here, and I won't be able to to be out, and my children won't have their father. And I stopped him there and I said, Okay. Well my children very much love their father, and they don't have their father now either. And I think you know why. Yeah. And he just said, Well, you know, I I really wasn't there, and I'm like, Well, God knows whether you're innocent or not. And if you are not, if you are innocent, I pray God gives you freedom. Like, really, that God will provide you freedom from here. But if you're not innocent, I pray that God will have mercy on your soul and give you your soul freedom through forgiveness. And he was just kind of speechless. And I said, dude, there's no way you could have known this man that you you killed. He loved your people, he loved God, and he loved his family, and he taught his children to love God and love your country. And he taught about Jesus because we follow Jesus, and Jesus tells us that we should love our enemies and bless those who curse us. And I didn't really realize I knew that verse, those verses so well in Arabic, but it just kind of flowed spirit, obviously. But and by the end of the conversation, I was like, you know, we harbor no no hatred towards you. And I really am sorry for your family. This is not your children's fault. And if there's anything that we can do, we would love to help them in any way possible. And again, there's a humdrum in the the hallway, you know, these people are these other guards are like listening and it's going, it's going down the hall.
SPEAKER_05:New guards are coming in, then they're leaving, getting a different guard, and they're it's like there's a buzz going on. And the warden, his mouth is just dropped open.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:He's like, and he just keeps saying, That's just amazing. You know, it's amazing. Like they're all shocked.
SPEAKER_01:I did ask him if he ever got the letter that my son had written, and he said, Well, no, I heard about it, but I never got in, and I looked at the warden like so um after it was all over, he went and got on the table for acupuncture and stared at me the whole time.
SPEAKER_02:Stared at you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because I went back to translating.
SPEAKER_02:Because they don't use eye contact.
SPEAKER_01:But he stared at you.
SPEAKER_05:Well, and when we walked back into the room, the it had the news had already gotten back to the room.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was really hoping it wouldn't, because I had just vouched for Dr. Kim, and I was like, I really hope she doesn't know who she's doing acupuncture on.
SPEAKER_05:But it was So all those same men that were scattered around the room at the triage tables who were angry with their fists clenched. We walk back into the room and they all make eye contact with Emily, and there's this different, like it's just the atmosphere was the atmosphere changed. And this guy comes and everybody's quiet. And this guy comes, gets on the table. Emily goes back to translating at her station.
SPEAKER_01:The the back with the son of the former president. And he's just looking at me, and I'm trying not to look at anybody because at that point I was so on the verge of I didn't know, like I could not process the plethora of emotion that I was feeling. Like I felt like I could just crawl in a hole and die. I felt like I could just cry so hard. I felt like I could go hug everybody really hard. I felt like I could just take somebody down. Like it was so weird. Yeah. And I just knew I was, I couldn't do it. Like I couldn't process this right now. So I was just like, I shelfed it until, and I had a pretty good resolve until Dr. Kim finished the acupuncture, and she was walking over towards me, and you know, a good Korean pre-COVID, she had her mask on.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I could see the tears were just rolling down. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Please do not come over here. Nope, nope. And I tried not to make eye contact with her. Like, I did not need that. I guess I did, but like I just wanted to be in the here and now, process that later. And then she just came over and squeezed me really hard and hugged me, and I almost totally broke my resolve. But I cried. I was starting to cry, which I was trying really hard not to do. So I wouldn't look at anybody after that. I'm just trying to to translate. And you know, she goes back to what she was doing, and then all of a sudden, this man, the former president's son, puts his hand on my arm, and I look up and he's weeping. Like he's crying. And he said, We will never forget your husband. He was an amazing man. We will never forget. And it was just crazy. Yeah. The whole atmosphere.
SPEAKER_05:The whole room changed at my table where the guy was so angry and had fists and wouldn't look at the nurse, just out of the blue, after this man reaches over and touches her and says that to her, all of a sudden this guy just breaks down and starts wailing. Like, which they don't show emotion. And remember that within Islam, you're insulting God if you show emotion. And he just throws his head down on the table and just starts loudly crying and wailing. And I'm like, ah, what am I supposed to do? You know, I'm standing there, I'm going, I don't know what to do. So I just go around and I put my hand on him and just start praying. Yeah. And I'm just praying that God would help this man and give him freedom. And then another guy at another table starts wailing, just starts crying. These are like terrorists. And all of a sudden, the whole room is filled with emotion. And it's like the Holy Spirit just came and said, I'm going to change this climate. And from and it and this this whole scenario was spreading through the whole prison like wildfire. And from that day forward, we hear this talked about every time we take a visit there about her encounter that day and what God did in the prison and how you know how much God And we don't know that this guy has ever surrendered his life to Jesus.
SPEAKER_01:In fact, I think he hasn't. I think he's more proud than ever. He's still very celebrated by extremists. He's very well kept. Like even though he's in the prison, he's living high on the high. Oh yeah. But we were noticing that there was still, in spite of that, there was something happening. Yes. And I didn't know like to what extent or anything. I mean, we, you know, every year after that, we would bring a medical team and we would encounter these guys, but it was just different, you know. And so yeah, I wish I had time to explain what happened this year during the medical team.
SPEAKER_05:Well, even just to to piggyback on that, though, because that that story began to be told in different parts of the city. Like we would come in and we would hear people bring it up, you know. And there is there was one situation where the Lord used that just a matter of months after we after we left and came back to the States. We have a colleague that's living there and doing you know long-term work there. And he had befriended this guy, you know, that was doing like tourism, taking people into tours, adventure tours into the desert. And he befriended this guy. Uh, and this guy said, Oh man, you need to come with me out into the desert. I want to show you some of these plates, I want to take you to the oasis and this kind of stuff. And said, Okay, great, yeah. So they go out, and now they're all alone out in the desert for several days. So the guy starts to get really honest with them. And he he he says to our colleague, and this is maybe just a few months after we were there, he said, Listen, man, come on, be honest with me. What are you doing here? You know, this is the armpit of the world. You're an American, you could live anywhere. Why are you living here? Like he just flat out tell, you know, ask him. And our colleague says, Well, let me tell you. He said, The truth is, you know, several years ago I heard a story about a family that lived here. And they had they brought their four kids here, and they lived here and they loved on this country, and uh some people killed the father in the street. And I heard this story back in America, and I thought and I felt God say, Why don't you go? Why don't you go in that place? And he said, so that inspired me. And I thought, well, I'll come here and I'll love these people. Then if that guy was willing to lay in his life, I'll come love these people. These people. And the guy's like shocked. And he goes, Wait, wait, wait, wait. I know that story. You're talking about the American, right? The American that was killed in such and such a date. And he says the date. He says, I was a childhood friend of the guy who killed him. Whoa. And he goes, wait, what do you mean? He says, Yeah, we we grew up in the same village. Our families knew each other. He was my best friend. We were we were friends together. He said, all the way up into early teens. And uh and he was a funny guy, and he gave us the name, he gave the name of the dude, and he says, and then and then we were teenagers, and all of a sudden these people came in from you know from the uh across from the Mali border, and they said, Hey, you know, um they they came in and wanted to recruit us all to come join their movement, and they were trying to radicalize all of us, and I was like, I don't want anything to do with that, but my friend went with them. Wow, and then he came back a while later and he had this big beard and he was angry and he had changed. And it's like I was just like, I don't want anything, I can't do anything with this guy. And he was trying to recruit him also. So our ways kind of parted, and then you know, it was left disillusioned, so and he was left disillusioned with uh with Islam because of this whole experience with his friend. And then he heard a few years later, he was in a taxi somewhere, whatever, heard it on the radio that this someone was just killed. And he said, right away, I knew I knew that's that's my friend. I know he did this because they were talking about doing this kind of stuff. And he said, So I know this guy. And so our colleague goes, Well, that's not the end of the story. So let me tell you, this family still comes back. His widow comes back, they brought their kids back, they still are doing the work, the humanitarian work that they were doing. As a matter of fact, just a few months ago, uh, this widow met your childhood friend in the prison.
SPEAKER_03:Crazy.
SPEAKER_05:You know, and he tells the story about how Emily extended forgiveness and talked about Jesus and about loving enemies. And the guy stops and says, That's it. That's it. That's what I'm talking about. There's nothing in Islam like that. He said, If if if that's what Jesus teaches, I want that. You tell me how I get that, right? And he ends up sharing with him the gospel, and this guy becomes a uh a believer.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_05:Then we find out about this because we're coming back into the country just two months later, right? And so our colleague calls us and says, Listen, man, I've been spending time with this guy around Bible studies. This is his response. He really wants to meet you. And I go, Great, we're coming into the city. You know, um, why don't you have him come and meet with us? So, and at the at the same time, uh Joshua was still hoping to encounter this guy also. But because this warden saw the way Emily dealt with the situation, all of a sudden he has a change of heart. And he goes, Oh, well, if that's what you're gonna do, then yeah, we can grant, we can grant your son the right to, because maybe he's gonna do the same thing. So, yeah, if if you if your son wants to come, he can meet with this guy too. Well, you know, um Joshua is like stateside, and all of a sudden in just last minute goes, okay, there's an opportunity. I'm gonna jump on a plane right now. So he gets a ticket to fly over, right? As we're trying to figure out whether he can meet with this this guy or not. They're gonna they're gonna arrange an opportunity for him to meet with the killer of his dad. Well, while this is going on, this other guy who just became a believer is coming into the Capitol to meet with us while Joshua's flying in. He doesn't even know because we can't get a hold of him. He's on the plane. So this guy, we're telling the story to this new believer. This believer is just shocked. He's like, I want to be baptized. I want to follow, I want, I want to follow the Lord that way. And can you guys, can you arrange for me to be baptized? Which obviously all this has to happen in secret, you know. And and so he's like, would it be possible for you guys to be a part of that? And for uh, you know, your son, the son of the man who was killed, can he be part of baptizing me? So while Joshua's flying over in the plane, you know, this is all sort of being arranged. And then Joshua gets off the plane to find out that he's gonna get to meet with this guy face to face, and we're gonna get to baptize this new believer because of this story.
SPEAKER_02:Who was led to the Lord by a man who was there because he heard Stephen's story?
SPEAKER_05:All of this, all of this piece together. So what you can see is how the Lord's using the story, the story of just the willingness that in spite of evil, we're gonna finish, we're gonna finish following the Lord. This family is willing to keep loving a people who killed the husband, the father, and keep loving, and it showed forgiveness. And that that part of what being a Jesus follower is, is the thing God is using over and over now. That more people are coming to the Lord because of that. So Joshua comes into the country, and then he gets to actually have a one-on-one encounter with this guy who killed his father. And we get to baptize this dude early in the morning when nobody's around out in the ocean, who, by the way, now has gotten married, led his wife to the Lord, and the two of them are trying to uh find ways to uh plant churches underground in the country. And it's just all the things God's building in that scenario.
SPEAKER_02:So I don't even know if you have time to tell the story of how Joshua met the until that, and then yeah, well what because I want to be mindful of y'all's time, but the last thing I want to do is talk about just very briefly what next year's plans are, yeah, and then we'll come do a longer conversation about that. But I would love to hear about Joshua's encounter. Yeah, I keep wanting to call him his real name. Joshua's encounter, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so um they arranged this meeting, and he expected, you know, that he would be able to just go and sit, and then this guy would have a bunch of iron guards around him or whatever for his protection. Again, my son is a big dude, and this guy is not. And so um, they arranged for him to sit in this this small office, and Joshua said that he, you know, he he came in, they brought him into this room, sat him down, and then they they bring in the guy, and then the guy's like looks at Joshua and is like, oh and then he turns around to see all the guards go out of the room and close the door.
SPEAKER_05:Just the two of them. They left him in there. I think they really wanted to test this. Like, yeah, okay, we're gonna give them the opportunity to do what would have been legally right. You can you can take revenge, it's legally right.
SPEAKER_02:In that country.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, but they so it's almost like, okay, we're gonna test this forgiveness thing. We're just gonna step out and see what happens. And they left him in there.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. So he did have he did have one of our other colleagues that we have become very close with. He is actually the one in the end of the book in the epilogue that came over and visited the grave and all of that. He's so close to the kingdom at this point. But the, you know, back when my son had this encounter, he wasn't yet there. But it was so impactful for him to be able to go in. He was just willing to, you know, my son speaks really good French. His Arabic wasn't super, super good, and so he asked him to just come and clarify because the killer had not, like he was fairly uneducated otherwise and didn't know French very well. So, um, so our colleague was there with him during this whole experience, and just even hearing him talk about it, it was very, very impactful for him. But yeah, so this guy comes in and is sitting right across from my son, scared to death. Like Joshua said he was visibly scared for good reason, and was shocked though to hear Joshua express just no hatred, but prayer. Like he just told him, I pray for you. I pity you. You know, there's no way you knew my dad. So um, so that was a wow crazy.
SPEAKER_05:And he said the same thing to him. He said, My my dad taught us to be followers of Jesus, and Jesus taught us to love our enemies, and I have no hatred towards you because I follow Jesus. I mean, he was just straight up, and then we've his the guy translating for him, one of our colleagues who works for our NGO, who's a high-identity Muslim, he's listening to all this and just struck with it. He still talks to us about it. Like I can't believe that Joshua did that, you know. And just to see how God uses that, I think we underestimate that this is one of the most unique things about our faith, that we have hope in suffering.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_05:That when when evil and suffering happens, we exude a different kind of hope than the rest of the world has. And we also we have a capacity to truly love our enemies because of the grace of the Lord Jesus. These two things, I don't think we I don't think we give it enough credence to know that this is our most powerful witness in a world that doesn't know Christ. And this is what we see God continuing to use in this country over and over.
SPEAKER_01:And I think, you know, I don't know if I take this verse out of context. I don't think I do, but I I you know the the scripture where in Psalm 23 where he prepares a table before us in the presence of our enemies, you know, Joshua could have gone in there and just let loose on this guy. But instead he was presenting something this guy had no idea was a result of his crime and his hatred and his like my son's sitting there with a table before him of abundance, and that abundance is he's good. He has peace, he has eternity, he has this feast this guy in front of him knows nothing about. And I feel like that alone is one of the most powerful aspects of being able to forgive somebody that's done something so horrible to you, and you know this guy absolutely meant for harm. And now he's sitting across from this spiritually rich young man who's forgiving him, and he's very well taken care of by his his savior, his God. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That is gold. Yes, I've never known that part of the story. I mean, we literally just posted two episodes about forgiveness and reconciliation. Wow. Yeah, the last two episodes. Yeah, that's what they're about.
SPEAKER_04:And we just interviewed a week ago a former staff who different story, but had a still underlying theme of forgiveness and not harboring bitterness, and that is truly so convicting and just so encouraging. Like that last picture that you just painted of like Joshua sitting with a feast that his enemy has no idea, and like he's able to share that. That is such a beautiful picture, and like praise the Lord for that that we are able to like, and I've never even thought about that of like what a unique aspect are like we have, like that the Lord gives us of forgiveness and like hope and suffering. And yes, that's so clearly talked about in scripture and like even brought up in sermons and everything like that, but truly like just focusing and like dwelling in that of like have joy in that, like rejoice in that. Like that's such a beautiful thing that we have, and need to tap into more, you know, need to like rely on that more. So good.
SPEAKER_02:Thank y'all for coming. Yes. I know, you know, uh asking you to take two days and come here and hopefully it wasn't good to see some folks, but um it's not lost on us the the gift this is to us and to people that are following along the snowbird journey. But we would like to come back, come your way and we could do this a couple more times. This is awesome just to hear what God's doing. And definitely and uh I'd like to get into even some some conversations about opportunities, you know, in terms of missions and mobilization and how to minister at home. We have such a diverse international community within our borders, so many opportunities. We see it through Pinwheel Tutoring with the Hispanic community from about four different countries. And um yeah, that'd be a fun conversation. But y'all are amazing testimony, trophies of grace. You know, the the Lord, you know, that picture. I love the picture of Jesus in Revelation 19 where he's wearing the seven crowns, and I've heard it's you know the crowns of his conquest, and his his uh robe is dipped in blood, and there's debate over what that blood is the blood of his enemies, the blood of the cross, whatever. But there's no doubt you know, the person that you're talking about. I believe I started that interview talking about she's a trophy of God's grace in this ministry. And y'all are trophies of God's grace. He's sometimes he just shows out. He just does stuff that makes you go, wow. Only God could could be capable of a story like this. Yeah. And we're right in the middle of the story. I mean, who knows? What's God gonna do? You know, it's exciting.
SPEAKER_01:Stay tuned. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, we will. Yeah, we'll be on the edge of our seat. So thank y'all.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thank you for having us.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at swoutfitters.com to see all of our programming and resources. And we'll see you next week on No Sanity Required.
