No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
Martyred, But Not Silenced | The Price of Making Jesus Known in a Muslim Country
In this episode, we sit down with Emily Foreman to hear her story, from a small town in the U.S. to an African city that calls itself 100% Muslim. Emily and her late husband, Stephen, began their mission work in prisons and by giving microloans. Over time, they built strong friendships and quietly shared their faith, even though local laws made it risky and danger was growing.
After militants killed tourists nearby, most aid workers left the country. But Emily and Stephen chose to stay and continue their calling. When tragedy struck, Emily responded with forgiveness that broke down fear and opened new doors. Today, their work continues through family and friends who carry on the torch of love, courage, and faithfulness.
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Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.
Hey, in this week's episode of No Sanity Required, I'm going to sit down with a lady named Emily Foreman and her husband Lewis. Now, that's not their real names, but that's the names we're using because they are doing fairly clandestine work when it comes to gospel work and impact and the places they're going. And they have an incredible story. I mean, one of the most amazing stories I've ever heard and witnessed in real time and been a part of. Um, this is one of those no sanity stories that's going to have you, I think, on the edge of your seat. It'll be two episodes to get all of this uh covered. Um, JB and I sat down with them, and it was just an amazing time. They spent a couple days here at Snowbird. Um, we had a few meals together, just fellowship, little and I, and this couple that is very dear to our hearts. We love them so much. And uh Emily's, I don't want to give too much of it away, but Emily's uh first husband was martyred for the gospel by uh jihadists. They were uh working and they continue to work in a in a deeply Muslim context. Um crazy story. Anyway, the gospel is is gonna continue to to do the work that that God intends for his good dudes to do, and um, and he's using this amazing couple to get that work done. Um excited for y'all to hear from them, and uh, I don't want to talk any more about it. Let's just get into it. Welcome to this week's episode of No Sanity Required.
SPEAKER_04:Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.
SPEAKER_05:I want to start by kind of laying the foundation or the framework for our conversation with Emily and Lewis. Pseudonyms, but those are the names we'll be using. Um in 2000 something, one year, try to try to speak as cryptically as we can and still express the meaning of the story. I remember uh a person, uh, a lady on staff walked up to me. This was in the summer, it was during summer camp, and she had a copy of USA Today. And there was a there was, I don't remember the article, I remember the headline, but it was an article about an aid worker in a in a country in Africa had been killed by Al-Qaeda. And I will say this was during the conflict, you know, the 20-year global war on terror. So it was during during that time frame, that 20-year time frame. And so, you know, Al-Qaeda was a that always was a buzzword to Westerners, just like ISIS or Taliban or and so when I saw that, I remember saying to this lady who still is a uh really um faithful and active member at Red Oak, our church, but she was working at Snowbird with us at the time. And I said, I believe he's probably got a gospel missionary, like probably a missionary worker of some sort if if Al Qaeda killed him. And so we had this conversation where um I asked her to start working to track down this family because and I don't remember if we knew this from the article. I think maybe we did some research and found out later that there was a wife and some children, knowing the country this was in, knew that they would not be able to stay. Like it's not gonna be feasible. They'll they'll come home. So let's find them when they when they get back home. Let's try to track them down, even if it's six months or a year from now. I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of security around them. Let's find them, let's track them down and see how we can just connect with them. And particularly if they're kids, that's our heart, you know, is the next generation, both in terms of discipleship and future mobilization. And and in this conversation, I remember we talked about the fact that if this if this person died for the sake of the gospel, then we wanted to come in quickly behind that. And literally, in that initial conversation off of a USA Today article, you look back, God has foresight. We get to live long enough to have hindsight. We're like, oh, that was totally the Lord orchestrating that, you know. Um, you don't even realize what you're saying. And I just said, We need to minister to this family and we need to raise up someone to go in behind them, you know, like mobile mobilize somebody. For for our listeners that don't know what that word mobilize or mobilization means, it's just in layman's terms, like like sending people to do the work on the mission field, sending them from among us. And and and with that training and equipping and and supporting and so that was where the conversation started. Over the next maybe over the next two or three weeks, we found out through some detective work and asking questions, and we found out that this family only lived a couple states away, not far from us, you know, and had ties in Raleigh, um, had ties in Tennessee, had ties in Texas, all over Southeast, but but that we could get to them pretty easy where they were. So the Lord just beautifully orchestrated um a meeting and a and and a relationship was formed and started, and there were children, there were four kids that all then were able to have a snowbird experience when they were, you know, in in their teenage years, and and then a a relationship was forged with this family and with the snowbird family, and then eventually um Emily and Lewis were brought together by the Lord, married, and then that relationship has continued, and it's just been for me one of the joys of my life following it, tracking it, and seeing how the Lord's worked. We did um mobilize a family and send them right back in there, and I just believe the gospel's gonna saturate that place because that family suffered loss also. Um terrible loss, but uh they lost a child, um, and they're still faithfully serving the Lord and not in that same place, but not not too far, also still in Africa, just in a different country, and w we continue to hold the rope for them. And they were recently here on a visit and spent a month with us, and they'll be back next year for several months. But just the way the stories uh are interwoven in our lives and ministries, even though we don't see y'all a lot, we could not put together a podcast, book, stories of what guys are doing around the world without having y'all's story here. So thank y'all for coming. It means a lot that you'd be here, it means a whole lot. So I'm hoping we can do this in two episodes. Um start by telling uh sort of the first chapter of what y'all were doing, where you were at, Emily, and then how we met after tragedy struck, um, and then how the Lord has used that. And then the second episode, then Lewis comes into the story, and then we'll kind of to current day. And and also I'd like to end the second episode just with family update, uh, because God's continuing to grow and expand y'all's family, which is just cool. Uh yeah. So what what do you what's your first do you have a first memory of when we connected? Or is it more like all of that's a blur and we just seem like we've been friends forever?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I do have a memory. Um so when we first heard from you guys, I we were freshly back, no place to live, no vehicle to drive. We were staying with my in-laws, so my late husband's parents. And um my father-in-law got a call from someone from from here, from Snowbird, and he I guess through your investigators found out where we were staying and how to get in contact with us, and um and got the address and just was very kind, invited us here. Remember the guy's name was Brian. Yeah. Yeah. Um and shortly after that.
SPEAKER_05:Who's a missionary now, by the way? Oh, they're serving full-time in Europe.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's so cool. Um, so yeah, shortly after that, I got a package in the mail there, and it was this bulging package at some point, I can't remember how soon after, but yeah. Um, we were in the process of trying to figure out where are we gonna live? What are we gonna drive? Like, you know, borrowing people's vehicles and things like that. And just really feeling still sort of in the throes of everything, like not feeling like we have landed anywhere or connected. And you know, my first husband and I both we grew up in that area. We had people we knew, we had our church, and they were very supportive. Um, but it was kind of strange. Like that it was difficult to find people to talk to that actually got it, you know, and my kids found that to be the case too. They would just they uh ended up just not even talking about their experience with other kids because they would just give them blank stares. And so we felt supported in a lot of ways, but that there just was something missing. We felt a bit lost at sea. Um, but then in comes this bulging envelope full of the most encouraging and just validating um letters, and it came from a bunch of kids, you know, and so it was just so wonderful to see my kids reading these letters. And I think even though I'm sure most of those kids who wrote those letters had never been overseas, had never experienced that, but because of the type of discipleship Snowbird Snowbird provides, they had a clue. And that was so meaningful to my kids and to me, lots of letters from staff and just and maybe it was mostly staff and some kids, but it I still have that envelope to this day. And not only that, inside was also can't remember if it was a watt of cash or or a check.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I can't remember.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, apparently Snowbird had taken up money to help us purchase a vehicle, and there was absolutely enough in that envelope to buy our vehicle. So that's wild. Yeah. So after that, um you guys invited us up. So we came up with my in-laws and were able to tour and get to know you guys, and it was just there was just an immediate connection. It was unique.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah, special. I remember uh when I talked to the staff, I can still remember we we do staff worship on Mondays in the summer. And I remember just saying to them, Hey, this family has lost their father and husband, and we we have responsibility to make sure these kids know that their father didn't die in vain. And uh and I don't remember the nature of the whole talk, but that Monday that was the charge, that was the whole message I gave. And and then, hey, we're gonna pass the hat essentially. Just when you know, here's so-and-so is assigned with collecting money. Just you can give money. We wanna we wanna show them, we wanna give sacrificially. But I literally thought it'll be awesome if we hit a thousand bucks. I mean a bunch of poor college kids working their summer. Snowbird doesn't pay good. You know, you basically get a stipend. We had kids give their entire summer stipend. Yeah. Where I think, you know, probably they had parents that got on board, they told their parents about they're like, hey, we'll support. I would, you know, like I think as a dad, I hope I would say to my daughter, give it all. We'll we got you. You know, I think that maybe happened. It was cool. They gave sacrificially. They really did. I mean one guy, one guy came up to me and he had his whole summer pay in a watt of cash. And he said, I want to give all my that's the only one I remember specifically, but he gave his entire every dime from the summer.
SPEAKER_01:That's so cool.
SPEAKER_05:So cool. So let's walk, let's back up. So would love to just hear y'all's story. And I we'll we'll link JB'll link the the book. You wrote a book. It's called We Died Before We Came Here, and it tells a story, and I really, really encourage folks to get that.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:And there is an audible version of it, so either get the book or or get the audible book and listen to it or read it. Um it's phenomenal. It's it's incredible. I mean, it's so encouraging. But let's just let's kind of walk through what y'all were doing, how you got there, what that calling looked like, what your work had been like for those few years that you had been in because quite a while. Um you still speak Arabic? A little bit.
SPEAKER_02:None. Should we?
SPEAKER_05:That means yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Okay.
SPEAKER_05:All right. That was when I read the book, I can still remember because it was a what year did the book come out?
SPEAKER_02:2016.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I think I read it in 16 or 17. I think I read it before it went. You had sent us a copy, even. And uh I remember being shocked at how fast y'all learned Arabic. It's crazy. Um, but that's the Lord's provision, no doubt, and a lot of hard work. But yeah, just so walk us through what y'all were doing, how you got there, your family dynamic.
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm. Yeah. So um I grew up in a backwoods Baptist church, taught to love the Lord and love people. And um though my church didn't have a real global vision at that point, we were very, very outreach-oriented. So I was grateful to grow up in an environment like that. Um and there was this point where a traveling missionary came through, and actually actually a doctor who had just been to Kenya or somewhere in East Africa and shared about his ministry and about those he was reaching. And I think I was about 13 at that point. And it absolutely ruined me. I remember going home and crying myself to sleep that night. And I think I cried the next few nights. Just I was so just struck by the need. And I'd been so sheltered. We knew we had needs next door, but there was something that the Lord planted in my heart at that point, and it totally ruined my American dream that I was already constructing in my head, and I was just dissatisfied. And so I it was that at that point where the Lord basically just said, I have something different for you. Um, didn't know what that meant. I went on and became a rebellious and stupid teenager in a lot of ways, and then he redeemed me, and I met Stephen. And yeah, it's Stephen was just a different kind of guy. He loved the Lord and actually warned me when we first started talking. We weren't even at the dating stage. He warned me that he was called to long-term into missions and that I should know that it's not gonna be anywhere easy because all the easy places are taken. It's gonna be a hard place. And I thanked him, you know, and he gave me a book to read. Ironically, Fox's Book of Martyrs. Nope. And and I thought that traveling missionary ruined me. Oh my goodness, reading that book, I felt like I had to get saved all over again. Like I thought I'd given you everything, Lord, but oh my goodness, no, I haven't, you know. So that rocked my world. And um Stephen and I dated briefly. Um, and then the Lord brought us together, and we didn't know when or where, but we knew that we would be going abroad at some point again to a difficult place. And this was, you know, in the 90s, in the 1900s. The last century. Yeah. And so, I mean, we had the Operation World manual we were reading through. Um, so we knew there were a lot of hard places. Um, so we five five years into our marriage, three kids and five years later, um, we decided it's time. So we sold everything and went and did our training with Youth with a Mission. And not knowing again at that point, not knowing where we were gonna land long term, and never even had heard of the country we were going to, that the Lord would eventually send us to. We did our training, we learned a little bit more about different world religions, and I had no idea anything about Islam at that point. I just knew that it had something to do with, you know, those national geographic photos where they have turbans on their heads and they just look alien, like foreign. Never had an interest in that, you know. But then as the Lord made it clear where we would be going, which happened to be a very Islamic country, they brag of being 100% Islamic. Well, we know that's not true today, but um, so a pretty intense place. Um, so we did our training, had a fourth child, and then we were we had settled, the Lord had settled us on the country we would go to. So we started fundraising and getting ready to to go to Quebec for language study. And in that process, literally just a few short months before we would be landing in the desert, um, 9-11 happened. And so suddenly this term Islam took on a whole new meaning. And people who were for us and happy to support what we were doing were now questioning like, why? Why would you want to go and reach those people? And we had people, a couple of our supporters pulled their support because they would say things like, There's no way we can support anything that's helping those people. Um, so Stephen and I prayed hard about it and just felt actually more of an intense urgency and desire to go. And so we did, not knowing what we'd get ourselves into, because we had been seeing all the news everybody else has been seeing, which was Islam equals terrorism. Yeah, we're the infidels, they're out to get us, you know, they're all on jihad. And so we went in kind of with fear and trembling and a lot of prayer, not really knowing what we were getting ourselves into. But once we got there, we were delightfully surprised that these are among the most wonderful, warm, hospitable, and loving people we'd ever meet. And as we were going in trying to sort of break down this preconceived idea that all of us Americans are, you know, warmongers and anti-Muslim and all of that, you know, that were really no no danger, no threat. Um, they were coming at us trying to convince us that they weren't all terrorists. So we made a lot of friends from the get-go.
SPEAKER_01:And did they have any like preconceptions about I guess Western, Westernized American culture?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And actually, um, I think this is a little known fact to most of us in the West who don't really have a lot of experience with Islam or Muslims. But Islam is a it's like a birthright. So to be born in a Muslim country, you're born a Muslim. It's not a choice you make. Whereas in the West, we know that, well, we're born, it we may be born into a Christian family, but ultimately it's our choice to decide to follow Jesus or not. And but they didn't realize that, really. They thought we were all born into a Christian country, therefore we all must be Christian, okay, including everyone that was coming out in media, everyone in Hollywood, all of those rappers who rap some really gross stuff are Christians, quote unquote. Yeah, they're born in a Christian country. So we had our work cut out for us to just live a life that showed a different reality. And so the Lord gave us that opportunity. And I think one of our best tools to do that was living there as a family. You know, we had four kids. We are we were already sort of challenging some preconceived ideas. They thought all Americans hate kids, you know, we want one, maybe one and a half, or a dog, or you know, but here we are with four kids, same husband, same wife. They would say that all the time. Same husband, same wife. They have four kids together. Um, and just being able to live life like we otherwise would have lived our lives here, you know, just living our faith out loud and through how we love each other, how we treat our children, how we treat other people. And so that's that's kind of the challenge we were given up front. We didn't realize, okay, what we're gonna have to come up against isn't terrorism, it's a really messed up, preconceived idea of what Christianity is in the first place. So yeah, we were there um total seven years. It did take us a while initially to get adapted. It was difficult because it is a very restricted country, so we knew we couldn't obviously couldn't come in on a missionary visa, and we had to find creative ways or a creative way to be able to even be there. But then we had to find creative ways to share our faith without getting ourselves kicked out. We did learn early on that it wasn't the government that was our issue. Like the government turns out to be pretty tolerant, they don't mind so much us being there because it is a very impoverished country and they need all the help they can get on in terms of relief and development and the humanitarian type work. So we did discover, though, as we were living there, that the real issue or the bigger threat came from just the extremist and the community, which were the minority. There weren't we really didn't interact with many of those at all. But um, because our work consisted mainly initially of just project work in the prison systems, um we yeah, we were interacting some with people who were extreme. But for the most part, we were greatly appreciated, greatly loved. Um and so we found it easy to be there as far as acceptance. Um but it was challenging, obviously, going from you know, our home, or actually from winter in Quebec, Canada to summer in the Sahara Desert. The Lord decided to stretch us good and yeah hard in the beginning, you know. But the climate was a challenge. The I would die.
SPEAKER_05:You get off the plane, it feels like a wall of hot stifling air just hits you in the face, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Yep, you just enter a furnace, only a really large furnace.
SPEAKER_05:And you gotta be, as a woman, you're covered top to bottom, head to toe. Can't show what your wrists and ankles are about it. You said that yeah, yeah. You said they they thought you were poor because your ankles and wrists were too scrubbing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so the thicker your your ankles and wrists, the more beautiful you are as a woman. So yeah, I was lacking in that. I got a lot of pity from a lot of my female friends. But um, yeah, so it was it went well. I mean, we were it was difficult, but we started seeing more fruit. We started realizing that, you know, our means by which we share the gospel here in the West don't necessarily adapt there very well. You can't go door to door with the flyer, you can't post a bunch on social media about you know turning to Jesus. You have to be a lot more creative, but the enemy really worked on us for a while, making us think that we weren't being productive. Like, what are we doing here? We're not seeing much fruit. And um, and the Lord had by then just convicted us that we were trying too hard to strategize and that we needed to simply just follow the commands and love him and love people around us. So we did that. And it was about that time that we finally just relaxed and stopped looking and assessing our success, you know, based on our fruit that we were seeing. Um, and it was at that point that the Lord started really showing us some fruit that was coming from it. But at that same time, the enemy was not happy about that either. And Al-Qaeda had just started um infiltrating a lot of North Africa, doing um setting up training camps around the country where we were, and they were recruiting these low-hanging fruit, these young men in villages and remote areas, they were completely disconnected from the rest of the world. So it was easy to go and convince their parents that this was an honorable thing if they just come and join jihad. And um, and so that's what they did. They were recruiting these young men, training them, and then sending them out to wreak havoc. And um yeah, a few years after we were there, there was um an attack on some French tourists um by the some of the Al-Qaeda members, and they were they had killed several tourists and gotten away. So there was this chase. I remember we heard they made it to the city and were like fleeing and they were chasing after them, and it was like very close to our house. And just we we started realizing at that point, okay, maybe the risk here is much higher than we realized. Um, and so although there were never really enough missionaries, enough Christian workers there from the beginning after that event, there were uh far fewer. So people were being pulled out or taking voluntary sabbatical or just yeah, fleeing, basically.
SPEAKER_05:What was the there was a story about because the prison ministry was the first real boots on the ground ministry I were doing, right? And there was a guy, I feel like a guy from the book, it's been a while, but that came to faith who was in prison for having shot into the vehicle of some missionaries. Is that right? Am I on track? What was that story?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that story, um there was a man who was director of a pretty well-known humanitarian organization who was just visiting the beach with his 10-year-old daughter, and there was uh a local man there um just wandering around and approached them. And um before they realized he had pulled a gun, pulled a gun out and was shooting into the vehicle as this man was driving away. They survived, thankfully. The man was shot in the arm. Um his daughter got a shot like across her chest, so it did damage, but didn't like infiltrate, like it wasn't yeah, it and so they both survived obviously very traumatic. Um and so yeah, there's a book on that event too, maybe. Yeah, but the man who had shot them, of course, was arrested and put into prison. And um, we had a really great guy that was ended up coming on with us and working very closely with Steven, um, who was a refugee from another African country, but a strong believer. In the Lord, and he was teaching French, you know, it's in a school, but also on the side was doing a taxi business. And before I get there, though, I will say that the man and his family, his daughter and the rest of his family, did visit this man in prison and took them supplies, took him supplies and actually extended forgiveness. Wow. And so it just transformed this man. And so fast forward now, our our he's now our director, but then he was working closely with us. He was driving his taxi in and sees in the front of the central prison this man that looks like a crazy man. I mean, been in prison for a while. His hair was all crazy. It was just he had nothing. And so our colleague pulled over, you know, and offered him a ride only to find out that he was that man. Wow. And that he was completely changed. And so, yeah, so it turns out um he ended up getting to know Steven, and Steven was even able to provide a small loan for him to be able to get back on his feet. Um, and I believe he came to the Lord. Yeah. So that's so cool.
SPEAKER_05:Because the small you might be headed in this direction with the story, but doing those micro loans, small loans, that was a big your platform grew more into that. That became okay, but go go ahead, just continue. Because I know I'm sure you'll get to that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so at by then, whenever we encountered this man, um, Steven, he had actually gone into the directorship of this organization that we went in to work for. He he was taking over directorship, the former director was leaving, and um at that point it was just prison project stuff, like really basic stuff. Wasn't even in the men's prison at that point, it was really pretty much just the women's prison that there was anything going on. And so Stephen expanded all of that, but his his deeper desire was to be able to provide microcredit loans um for people to be able to sort of be able to, you know, create their own little business and be able to provide for their families. Obviously, it's a poor country, you can't just go to the bank and get a business loan. And um so we ended up uh we learned the hard way in a lot of ways, who to fund and who not to fund. And we learned pretty quickly in general, you don't just give a microcredit loan to a man. There had to be women involved as well, and then it sort of developed into or evolved into a much more successful plan, which was funding cooperatives. So, but the cooperative had to have at least three people and at least the majority of needed to be women. And it was it was those projects, those um little enterprises that would pay back their loans so so faithfully.
SPEAKER_01:Which was that pretty controversial? Like I know um cultures like that can be pretty oppressive to women. Was that like a topic of controversy or was it pretty accepted? No, it was very much accepted.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, cool. Yeah, very much accepted. And the women are you know oppressed in a lot of ways. But um yeah, but in that culture, the both parents, all the family, of course, their desire is that they prosper, you know, the kids are able to go to school. And mainly the women, they they really were so good about taking their profits and using it to provide for the family and send their kids to school. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_05:What would the amount of a typical loan be in US dollars? We're talking small money, right?
SPEAKER_02:About$300.
SPEAKER_05:And that they could start a business. Maybe it's one of those I've traveled in a lot of African countries and Asian and South American, like a roadside kiosk type little boutique or kiosk where they're maybe they're selling Coca-Cola products or something like that.
SPEAKER_02:Sugar and rice and yeah, yeah, okay. Or a vegetable stand. Something as simple as that. Or a boutique where um, because we also had training centers where we were teaching uh vocational skills as well. Um, and they would learn sewing there, for example. Most of the women were illiterate, but they could learn to sew. And we had a business class where they could learn how to manage their money, how to understand business and learn how to create a profit margin. You know, like and they they were amazing. Even though they were illiterate, we geared the class to accommodate and they did it, they're intelligent people. They did a very, very good job at um doing that. So yeah, they many of them um went well, we encouraged them initially, you know, you pay back your loan on time, and you will qualify for another loan, like a bigger loan to expand whatever your business is. And that was so motivating. We had several of them that would they worked hard, they paid it back early so they could quit get that second loan and be able to expand their business. So that's so cool. Yeah, by the time we left there, it I think we had about 150 cooperatives in the city.
SPEAKER_05:150.
SPEAKER_01:So, in that um first, I want you to briefly talk about the differences, I guess, in religion. And kind of the second piece to my question is in these trainings and these like vocational things, was it like heavy like gospel-centered, or was that just kind of like you got to crack the door with these like vocational trainings, build up a relationship, and then you know, slowly start to integrate um like the gospel. But first, will you tell us about just like the differences in what they believe?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's hard to know where to start on that one. Um yeah, they're very fatalistic. And so it's really sad to see a very impoverished Muslim family lose a child to malnutrition or some senseless illness, and they're not allowed to cry. Oh wow, in front of anyone because that insults Allah's will. Okay. Um even though you know like deep down they're agonizing over the death of this child. So that was one of the harsher differences that we encountered. Um but it also provided an open door. So we were able to just sit with these people who lost a loved one or you know, a tragedy strikes, and just being able to be the hands and feet of Jesus. And I think they were noticing the difference in the way that we approached suffering and grief than them. And we found that we actually, you know, most people think Muslims are just very like I don't know, radical or not at all open. What we learned though is that they are just very spiritual people. So for them, it is not necessarily their religion only, it's their identity. And so everyone wears their religion on their sleeves, every part of their life.
SPEAKER_05:Um which goes back to the where they identify all Americans as Christian rappers, pop stars, movie stars, because that's how it is in that culture. I assume that's how it is here. We're a Christian society. So it's our identity, even if you're a rapper.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. The five pillars, right? One of which is obviously prayer. Yeah. And they have to pray pray at least the five times a day. And but their perspective of Christianity, or Christians broadly, not even just American Christians, but just broadly, they they saw Christianity as just a very, you know, non-serious religion. We never pray. Yeah, we never fast, which is another pillar of faith in Islam. We never, you know, give alms. We never um we might go to church, you know. But for them, faith was uh everything. For us, it's just sort of an accessory. An accessory, yeah, a category in life that we sort of put on the hat for a minute and then we go on. Which discovering that firsthand was really liberating for us, knowing that, okay, you know, here in the here in the US, we go to church, we can be as spiritual as we want. We walk up to somebody, oh, just let me tell you what the Lord has done in my life today, or you know, oh, but it was just in my prayer time, and you know, and we're excited, like, well, depending on your church, I guess. But, you know, that's when we put on our spiritual hat. Whereas they live it, breathe it, like Luna said, it's everything. And so what we discovered is it's easier to live our Christianity, our spiritual life on the outside there than it is here. If I go up to someone in Walgreens or Walmart and I start saying those kinds of things, they're gonna be like, get away from me. Uh-huh. Like personal space, you know. And in here where it's almost like this unspoken rule that you keep your faith private, it's yours, you know. There, it's not that. Like that, they find that probably one of the most distasteful things about Christianity is that we aren't serious about. We don't pray. We don't say, Praise God, you know, in every breath, every sentence just about it, there you're gonna hear, which is praise God, or mashallah, which is as God has willed, or inshallah, God willing, you know, all these things, all the time. Um, in fact, it's actually really disrespectful, even for Westerners come in and and compliment something like, you know, your child is so beautiful. Without saying mashallah, it's so offensive. Um so we, you know, the Lord showed us that we can actually harness that. Yeah. We learned that we could be open, completely open with our faith everywhere we went. And it increased their level of respect for us and also made them very, very intrigued. Sure.
SPEAKER_05:So at that point then, are they, as you begin to be open with your faith, they're because there's a point in the book where someone says, We know why you're really here. Was there a but was there a gray area where they're going, they're here to do microloans and to help our people, but they're open with their faith. But their faith is not why they're here. Was there so it sounds like there was a point where you had some you had a cushion of, yeah, you can just be speak freely as a Christ follower who's telling others about your faith, and there they didn't get their hackles up, they didn't go, oh, now I know why you're really here. You want to convert us. It was more, oh, you're a Christian, we're Muslims, we have conversation, our faith is our identity, it drives who we are, and we see that you're bringing good to this country, and so there was a a season where there was growth because of that, where they were sort of accepting it, but not suspiciously.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, and yeah, that comment actually came from a government official that Stephen had become close friends with. Okay. And he just basically said, Look at that, look. We know what's up. We know why you're here. Just please be careful because we want you here and we appreciate what you're doing. It was more of a warning for our protection.
SPEAKER_05:I see.
SPEAKER_02:And just also explaining like we're not your problem. Your problem are those that look like everybody else. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um Yeah, I was just gonna say it kind of goes back to your other question about when you're in the when you're running the training centers, are you presenting the gospel through everything that you do, that kind of thing. And so the reality is it is against the law to preach the gospel. You can't dissemble as Christians. There's no church. It's against the law to have a church, to do any form of public worship. Um, and so it would also be against the law to try and convert somebody. And so you were highly being watched about that kind of activity. But you so you're running just your humanitarian work. Everything you're doing is humanitarian and focus. But because you're living out your spirituality as you're building relationships with people and you're having food and tea in people's homes and you're sharing what God is speaking to you, and they start to ask questions because the way you're describing a relationship with God is a very different relationship than the way they would describe theirs with Allah. And they're doing everything they can to make Allah happy, but they don't have a give and take relationship. But as you're being very visible with your spirituality, they're going, wow, that's different. And so what why can you do that? And who is Jesus? And and so they're all supposed to respect this Jesus, but no one's been told what he has what he said or did. So curiosity builds very quickly. So where that gospel conversation takes place is usually in the home. And over time, through those relationships and constant conversation, people are coming to the Lord, but it never happens in a visible setting.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:So this is why the backdrop of that statement of this government official to Stephen is we know what you're doing, but make sure it doesn't become visible. Because at that point, we're gonna have a lot of problems. Yeah. And so, yeah, you had to be careful in that regard.
SPEAKER_05:There's uh, you know, here in southern Appalachia, there's not a lot of Muslims, you know. There's not a lot of, I mean, there's not a lot of people of other faith. Uh, we we recently had a converted evangelical Christian on here who came out of the the Latter-day Saints, the Mormon church. And there's some Mormons. We baptized a a family at our church at Red Oak, um, whose son got killed in a car wreck after that, and I got to preach his funeral last year, and you know, just confident that, hey, this man knows the Lord, you know. And you don't, there's not a lot. It's very difficult, you know. Our big mission field is cultural Bible belt Christianity, you know. But there's a family that runs the meat processing facility here. And the guy that used to run it was a local farmer. He he runs cattle, and then he they had a family business on the side where they processed meat. Take your cow to them, take your goat to them, whatever, you know. A lot of people take deer when they kill them. So I took a hog down there to have it butchered, and there's a new, this is 10 years ago. There's a new guy there, and he's he's dark skinned, he's got an accent, and I said, Hey man, where are you from? He's from he's from India, but he grew up in Africa. And and I said, Who do you worship? And you know, and he he kind of lit up and grinned, and I said, Come on, man, you can tell me. I mean, the first time I ever met this guy, he said, I'm I'm Muslim. And I said, Wait a minute, uh you're gonna butcher my pig for me, you know. So I start instantly started ribbing him like that's awesome. You're the worst Muslim I know, Jacob. You're butchering my pig for me, but you do make really good sausage, you know. So we get we got this relationship. Well, we've become very good friends, like very good friends. So he's one of five brothers. Uh three of them work in the in the company, and his wife is going through cancer right now, and so I just went and visited him two days ago. But uh he has a brother named Said, and uh Rachel Sweezer, now Fletcher, had uh do an assignment for school where she had to. Did you go with us?
SPEAKER_01:No, but I remember you guys talking about it.
SPEAKER_05:She had to interview somebody from a different faith. Well, it's very difficult to find that around here, you know. And so I took her down there and I called Saeed, the brother, and said, I want to bring a young lady to interview you. Just have a conversation. So we go on there, and he, I mean, we talked for a couple hours, and he was really trying to disrupt her belief system, you know, and it was fun. We we laughed and had great interaction. Um and I've I've shared the good news of Jesus with them, with everybody in that family extensively, you know. But Saeed died about two months ago. Um, he was back in India. He he had taken a wife from somewhere in India and he had gone back to get her to bring her. And while he was there, he had a I think he had a heart attack. Wow. We don't know, there's no autopsy. And hit that dude's he's he's my age, yeah, maybe younger than me. But it's really sobering. But also knowing that we had had gospel conversation, I'd shared the good news, you know. It's like I'm so glad we had that conversation. I'm so so glad because I'd shared with the other brother a lot who's who runs the place. But anyway, I bring that story up just to say to people listening, even now, Americans are very suspicious of Muslims. Yeah, but some of the sweetest relationships I have in this community is with this one extended family of Muslims, you know, the best people.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:Went down there. I went down there two days ago, just stopped in to check on Shinny because she's having chemo, and she sent me away with a ribeye steak and some summer sausage for Mo. They know Mo loves their summer sauce. They're just the most hospitable. I try to go by there when I know they're having tea. I love their tea. Oh, yeah. Sit and visit. But anyway, it's it's good. I think it's good for our listeners to hear the real relational component to this because we do have these suspicious sort of we think of the we think of Muhammad Atta, the guy that flew the one airplane into the World Trade Center. That's Muslim, boom, that's where you go. You know, Alzar Karawi, boom, that's where you go. Bin Laden, boom, that's where you go. And there's people, good people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I in college, I had a lot of um ESL classes, English, second language, and a lot of um Islamic Muslim people came to my college to take those classes to then teach English to their family. And so I was like the only white person in all these classes, but I loved them and they were so fun. And I remember I was paired with one of my partners, and he was a dad, had four kids, his wife, they just moved. I can't, I think Saudi Arabia, I think is way where they were from. And I remember him telling me, he was like, Americans have a view of Muslims, but like we could have the same view of Americans. Like, he used the example of the movie American Psycho, and he was like, We don't think every American is uh has a AK 47 and kills people and is crazy. And he was like, So don't think that about us. I was like, Man, that was really well put, but I love them. They so hospitable. I went over and hung out with their kids, and yeah, it was awesome. Love those classes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I think quickly you'd begin to discover there's really like three types of Muslims. There's the the majority of Muslims, I would say probably 80%, I don't know, are just a Muslim who is just trying really hard to make God happy. And they're and they all have different cultures because the Muslim world is all over the world. So they're living within their cultures, most of them very hospitable and living out their culture, but their whole life is governed around, I just want to do the right thing. I just want to make God happy. I just want to, you know, so that they have some hope of God smiling on them. And God is very fickle and you know, hard to know. The other, the other Muslim uh is a smaller percentage, maybe only 10%. And that's the guy who also really wants to make God happy, but is convinced the only way to do that is a very radical, radical form. So they're militant because they think that's also the only way to make God happy. And they look down on all the other Muslims who aren't radical enough. And you could see this in every culture, even in America. We have radicalized people who think the only way, you know, the only form of Christianity is to be militant. But so that's a small percentage, only that's the percentage we typically get portrayed about Islam. There is a growing other percentage of Muslims. The third one is the one that I just call a disillusioned Muslim. He's a Muslim by identity, he was born a Muslim, but he's really becoming secular, he doesn't really know if God even really exists, and he's starting to doubt it. And there's a new form of atheism within Islam. They're high-identity Muslims, but they kind of think probably maybe he's not even really there. And that's a growing number. But the reality is most of them are highly hospitable. Yeah. So it was easy. It's easy to build friendships. It's not always easy to get the gospel sewn into the conversation, but it's easy to move in that direction. And you know, we found that to be the case.
SPEAKER_05:So all right, so then we're in the story, in y'all's story, uh, we're at a point where you're really getting some traction now. Uh with with this incentivized loan program, people are coming really trying to be productive so they can get that second loan to expand their business, and so you're getting a lot of traction. So then from there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and so that was really picking up a lot about the same time that those French tourists were killed. And we found ourselves sort of at a crossroads. Do we go or do we stay? Recognizing that the risk is much higher, really real. You know, when you're at when you've when you sort of make yourself at home in a culture like that, you just it's not something you even consider so much because you're just so warmly welcomed and and they're wonderful hosts. Um but when that happened, yeah, we were we were at a point where it's like, okay, we have children, should we, should we go? Should we also be going? But and we prayed, but we just didn't feel a piece about going. And but we did feel like the Lord gave us the choice. Like we could we felt like we could actually leave and still be on God's good side. Yeah. Still be obedient. Yeah. Um but the alternative just was so much more compelling to stay. And that was reinforced every time the believers were coming to us and saying, Are you gonna leave us too? Are you also leaving? What are we gonna do? And that made us realize, wow, okay, we're passport American passport holding Christians who have a way out, and these guys don't, and they really are counting the cost. And we just did not feel a peace at all about going. Um, and so we just decided to stay. Of course, we were trying to be cautious and not make ourselves too visible, which is so hard when you're among the few white people left. But um, yeah, and at that point, Steven was um we always had a great relationship with the U.S. Embassy. Um, and it by then, I think because there were so few Americans left in the city, they had asked Stephen to consider being a warden. So, in other words, if some crisis happens, our home would be like the safe house, like all Americans would come to us and the embassy would come and get us. Like they would send in our security officers. And so he, but because of that, he was getting fed all the updates all the time, all the intelligence. You know, well, there's this risk, or you know, there's this rumor going around, or you know, these planned threats, these planned um I I don't remember exactly what they were specifically, but the threats were becoming a lot more evident. And so I'm amazed that he just still it didn't push him into any kind of corner of fear. Instead, he like became so bold. He'd always been bold, but he was at the point where he realized if I get out of this taxi and this person never knows Jesus, never has heard the truth, that's on me. Kind of like your your friend Saeed. You know, what if he had gone to India and you hadn't yet shared the gospel with him? That'd be on you. Yeah. And so that's kind of where Stephen was at. Like he was just he's he was overcome by a sense of urgency, but paradoxically an unusual peace as well. And so it was around that time that we realized, you know, the risk is heightened, we're here, we're just gonna pray, you know, but we were in we were in harm's way. Um didn't know exactly how much or how likely. So we were, you know, doing our Bible studies with our kids at night. We would spend time praying and and studying together. And and Stephen would say things like, guys, we have to and he would just reiterate like the importance of living your faith and living it while you can and taking the risk for the sake of the gospel, and that, you know. Um but being cautious, obviously not being you know, ridiculously um uncautious, but to be cautious, but doing the Lord's will at the same time. And we had teammates that were still there that were actually trying to distance themselves from us because yeah, because he was they learned okay, he's giving, you know, back in the 1900s, we still had cassettes. But these taxi drivers were driving these, you know, old, old Mercedes from Europe that had like 600,000 kilometers on them. And it's like they always had a cassette player, so we had our cassettes, and he would just make sure every taximan had that cassette of the Jesus film or the portion of scripture that was translated in their language. Um, and so yeah, that really intimidated a lot of our not a lot. We know we didn't have a lot of teammates left at that point, but yeah, they were really concerned. Um, and so just sort of kept their distance. Yeah, but it was at that point that we started seeing the most fruit. It's like it's amazing when you actually start sowing, things start producing. And so it came to a point though that um I started noticing that Stephen was a little bit preoccupied. And I think he probably received a a threat or a message indicating threat. Um and but he still had such a peace about him. And on that day, you know, he had gone to the training center early. He we had a carpool with some of the other um a couple of other workers. Children went to the French school with our youngest daughter, and he it was his carpool day, so he took off, dropped them off, and um arrived at the training center early. Um so the mosque, the oldest mosque in the city, actually, across the street, had already had. Their morning prayers, so that was vacant, and then the shops in the area weren't open yet, and there was just this butcher there preparing his meat for the day. And um, when Steven arrived, there were a couple of guys sitting in a car waiting for him, and um so from what we understand, they had been following him, even like monitoring our house and movement, and so they were there to kidnap him, but he was a big guy, and these were young, just small young Arab men, and um they weren't able to apprehend him, and so he was just really holding them off when one of them pulled a pistol out of his um his local clothing, which has a really big pocket on the front, and he pulled out the gun and shot him three times. Um and so I get a knock at the door just a little later, and I was there with my kids, the older three, and and it's a teammate of ours who is typically not very an emotional person. She's from Scandinavia. I don't think that's an excuse, but um, she was there, her husband was also named Stephen, and we knew he had been traveling, doing consulting in another part of the country, and we were praying for his safety. So she came to the door and she was crying, and I'm like, what's wrong? you know, and so she just sort of takes me by the arm and takes me into our living area and um tells me that something has happened and Stephen's been shot. And I immediately try to comfort her. And then she just said, No, not my Stephen, your Stephen's been shot, and he's dead. And just I can't describe the amount of grace there is in the shock factor. You know, when we hear that kind of news, there is shock. Like there's literally something physical that happens, but I believe it's the grace of God. I just had clarity of mind, and um, you know, okay, so we gotta do this, we gotta do that. Um I won't go into all those details, those are in the book. Um, but the grace of God was so real and so tangible, not just on me, but on my kids too. And it's crazy, it's something that we knew was possible. We always prayed that it wouldn't have to come to that, but it did, and just yeah. The Lord um the Lord really helped me come to a point of validation, I would say, in losing Stephen like that. Validation in that there's meaning and there's a purpose of why the Lord allowed that to happen. I had no idea what that would be at that point. I forgave the guys theoretically, you know, our family did. When we got back to the US within, you know, 72 hours. We made a public statement knowing that, you know, we all know how new sources are. They start just filling out blanks themselves. We didn't want things to just be misconstrued. So we made a public statement of you know, our forgiveness for these guys, um, our faith in the country's justice system to bring about justice, um, but also our solidarity and our our love for the people. And we didn't know at that point how powerful that would be. But it's still I still see fruit from that today when we go back. So um many things the Lord has done and continues to do through that. I feel very, very humbled to be able to witness things that He has done. Maybe not so much in spite of that sacrifice, but through it, you know. And um yeah, it's just amazing. We've been able to go back. Um initially the kids and I went back um once or twice a year just to see people and be able to continue. We really were wanting to continue the work that we had started and um to see things continue. And the government officials themselves had approached me. I mean, like literally within four hours of being told that my husband had been shot down, they were in that living room of this place we'd have been evacuated to um fighting tears, but actually practically begging me not to allow his work to to die as well. And asked that we would continue coming and serving their people and helping their people. And so, yeah, um now it's been years later, and every time we go back, it's just incredible to see. Like for hear things that we didn't know or didn't see, and just yeah, it's really inspiring. My kids have all, again, they've gone back several times, still love the country. Um, my father-in-law, um, my in-laws, Stephen's parents would come see us a couple of times a year, which was such a blessing. I mean, the kids so enjoyed having the grandparents, I so enjoyed having the peanut butter and you know, chocolate chips and that kind of thing. But um, but they were always just there for our kids and us, you know, just to visit. And we loved that. We were so grateful. But after Stephen's death, my father-in-law picked up a baton and has been amazing at spearheading the continuation and even expanding the legacy that that Stephen left behind. Wow. So he was actually, I think like a year and a half ago, given the highest honor of merit by the president of the country. Wow.
SPEAKER_05:Wow. I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01:That is so cool, yeah. That's also so amazing, like you said, God's grace. Because it it would be so easy to be so bitter and just shut down and even say, I'm not going back ever. And like just the strength that the Lord has given your in-laws and your family and your kids and you, and that's amazing. Like, that's hard for my brain to fathom, you know. Mine too. Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Is it Jimmy? So the oldest daughter, Hadi, was on staff here. She was your counselor, wasn't she?
SPEAKER_01:So she worked with our church, she worked with my sister's court. Okay. She wasn't my counselor, but my mom came as a chaperone and rolled up and saw our counselor had a kid and was like, I think it was like one of the first years we came to Snowbird. My mom was already a little bit skeptical, and she was like, Oh my gosh, what's going on? Where are we right now? And but her and Heidi got very close that week. And um, my mom was blown away. She shared your family story. Um, my mom immediately went home, got your book, read it, and she's still close Facebook friends with Heidi. Bought a cake from her recently. She has a little cake business, but my mom, I told her, I was like, Yeah, we're interviewing Emily. And my mom got so excited. She was like, Oh my goodness. But yeah, even that um has been really cool. Like, you've impacted my family, and we haven't even met. This is our first time meeting, so that's super encouraging.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah. JB was supposed to be on a recruiting trip this week for Snowbird. And I said, uh, we talked last week, and she did she didn't have our dates were crossed up. She said, wait, I'm gonna miss the Emily interview. So anyway, needless to say, she stayed. She didn't go on the trip. So glad you did. So cool. Let's uh let's take a break. Yeah. And I think it's a good place to to pick back up. We'll stop there. We took a break with them and and got some coffee and and uh and and just stretched our legs. It was it's heavy. The stuff that that uh we're working through is heavy, but I'm excited for the next episode because there's some things, everything to this point in the story I was very familiar with. But what has happened in the last few years um in the lives of the people in in that place and specifically with Lewis and Emily, pretty pretty shocking. The the second uh episode of this is is gonna just blow your mind. It's one of the most riveting stories. There, there's a couple of scenes in their story that are so riveting. I mean, I I I've thought about it. It's been a few a couple weeks now since we recorded, and I was just literally so captivated by the story. I've continued to think about it. But anyway, excited for y'all to hear that. Um praise the Lord for his faithfulness in their lives. Talk about putting your hand to the plow and not looking back. They've done it. They have done it. And Lewis, what a humble dude to walk into the shadow in the footsteps of a man like Stephen um, Stephen Foreman. That's a guy. Lewis is a guy that is so secure about who he is in Christ and of his calling. And I'll tell you, as you'll hear in the next uh episode, Lewis has now picked up the mantle of of the work to be done there. He and Emily back doing that work. Um and I I just I'm humbled. I feel like there are going to be times in your life where you're in the presence of people where you think these are giants of the faith. I mean, they're giants. And Lewis and Emily Foreman are uh they're inspiring. They have counted the cost, and they have paid the ultimate cost in the death of loved ones. And the the mission, the mission of the good news reaching the unreached, has cost them dearly, and and they're still laboring. Um Paul says to the Colossians, um, Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone, um with all the and he uses the word toil. I don't remember straining and toiling with all the energy that he works and supplies in us. So it's this hard work and labor to proclaim the gospel and and to get the good news to people, and they're doing it. And I'm just I'm blessed to know them. I love them dearly and excited to spend some time with them over this next year before they're back in in North Africa. So um just a reminder, the the book, Emily's book, is linked um in the in the um show notes. And so check that out, and I think you'll find the book very captivating. Uh, I read it, I've been through it twice now. Um, yeah, it's amazing. So thank you. Hope you're encouraged, hope it encourages you to put your hand to the plow, don't look back, take the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, and do the spiritual battle of um fighting for your own holiness and then uh working to see that others know who Jesus is. And that this story definitely motivates me to do that and to do it better. Um y'all hang in there, have an awesome week, and we'll see you in the next episode.
SPEAKER_04:Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at swoutfitters.com to see all of our programming and resources. And we'll see you next week on No Sanity Required.
