No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
Mormonism vs. Christianity | Testimony From an Ex-Mormon
When Josh Haskell left Mormonism, he discovered the true God of the Bible was nothing like the one he'd grown up with. Now a Christian educator, Josh reveals how Mormonism uses Christian terms—like “Jesus,” “grace,” and “God”—but redefines them completely.
He shares the moment Isaiah 6 shattered his view of God: “The God I worship isn’t holy—he’s just an exalted man.” From becoming gods to baptisms for the dead, a works-based salvation, and idolizing Joseph Smith, Josh exposes the key differences between Mormonism and true Christianity.
His story is both a warning about deceptive theology and a powerful testimony of God’s truth. You do not want to miss this two part series!
Please leave a review on Apple or Spotify to help improve No Sanity Required and help others grow in their faith.
Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.
Hey everyone, welcome back to NSR. This will be a two-part series. Me and Brody sat down with Josh Haskell, who now works with a Christian school that is partnered with Snowbird, and they come we offer Christian school retreats. So he was in town this weekend for a retreat and so we sat down with him. But he's also worked on Snowbird Summer Staff and worked with Old School, which is an old program that we used to run for years.
Speaker 1:His last summer was 2021, but we sat down with him because he has such an interesting and encouraging story story. I won't spoil it all, but he grew up very devout Mormon in a Mormon household and so he just kind of shared we just got to pick his brain on you know, what do Mormons believe and major differences between Christianity and Mormonism, and then he just really got into how the Lord's will and God's sovereignty just brought him out and now he is teaching the Bible at a Christian school, which is just so crazy, thank the Lord. I thank the Lord for his story and just for his willingness to share his story on NSR. But yeah, this is going to be a two-part series. I feel like we could have talked for another two hours, so we'll break this up, but thank you guys so much for watching and welcome to NSR.
Speaker 2:Welcome to no Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters. A podcast about the Bible, culture and stories from around the globe.
Speaker 3:So I'd like to start off by just saying Josh doesn't need to be welcomed, because he's one of us. He served here. How long did you serve here in some capacity?
Speaker 4:My first summer was 2012, and then off and on, maybe eight summers.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so eight years, connected to old school, at one point interned, worked, worked in various jobs and so longstanding relationship with Josh and I've wanted to tell Josh's story for a long time on NSR. But I wanted to be able to sit down and do it in an, in an non compressed way, and I didn't want. I don't like doing zoom interviews or I don't like the ear pods, airpods and the camera, and I want to be in the same space in these interviews. I'm not criticizing anybody else that does it, but I need it to be visceral, cerebral and I want to interact with this in person. And so we've waited until now because I wanted it to be right.
Speaker 3:The feedback we got from my interview with John Pollock, who came out of the Catholic church, was the feedback was phenomenal and you get a lot of feedback as well. Both JB and I got a lot of feedback from that. Um, I don't know if you had a chance to listen to that, but I think you would really enjoy it. Um, and I want to get you two together at some point, just because you're both very intelligent, very articulate and um, you have different perspectives on the Christian gospel and so, but same perspective, different background perspectives. You know, um, and and uh, the feedback was so good, I was like now's the time I want to get, I want to get Josh on here.
Speaker 3:So Josh is uh, uh, here this week, uh, with a group from his school where he he he's part of a school that's here this week leads, um, he's now in the education side of Christian ministry, so we're just going to dive in. I've asked JB to prepare some questions and we'll just sort of dialogue through how Josh answers these questions. I just want you to have freedom to run with this and speak candidly. There's going to be some hard conversation where we talk about josh's family, what this has done, his, his leaving the mormon church and entering into a relationship with christ, um, what that's done to family relationships, the strain and stress that's put on those relationships, and so we'll get into all that. So, um, jebby, why't you, why don't you just start us off and uh, and we'll get it rolling that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Josh grew up Mormon and I actually didn't know that. So I'm super excited to just hear your story and hear how the Lord has worked through you. But I kind of wanted to open with some questions for you about, like, the differences between Mormonism and Christianity and one I think Mormon Mormonism, I guess is trending in some ways. Like have you ever heard of the show Secret Life of Mormon Wives?
Speaker 1:I've heard of it, yes, so like there's like random shows and like on TikTok or Instagram, I just see a lot of people like trending who are associated with like LDS and Mormon and stuff like that, and so that kind of brings a lot of questions to me.
Speaker 1:I remember a few months ago I sent Brody a voice message about something about Mormon and he was like we should just do an episode on it. But kind of fast forwarding, we had a couple guys, intern guys, that had a different religion class or something where they had to explore different religions, and they went to the Mormon Church in Murphy and they came back and they were like man, it was kind of weird because it was like fairly normal, like we were kind of expecting some like super cultish experiment, like whatever, but they were like no, it's fairly normal. And like if we didn't know, we would have thought, oh, this is just a Christian church, this is just a regular church. And so for you, I just kind of wanted, if you can, articulate ways that like they might look similar like Christianity and Mormonism and maybe like the major differences if that makes sense In the vein of because they look similar.
Speaker 3:That's why it's so dangerous, yeah.
Speaker 4:Um, let me first say you know the trending thing to say that's totally purposeful on their part. Um, if Brody probably remembers this, but like 16 years ago they had commercials and it was like some girl in Hawaii. He's like just saying, just like going through a normal life, I like surfing, I like hanging out with my friends, I like doing this or that. And then just the last word was I'm Kaylee or whatever, and I'm a Mormon. And that was the whole whole. That was a commercial and it was like normalizing, because they did have a stigma for a long time of being quite strange and so they were trying to normalize. Uh, who normalized their review to the, to average person? And then I think the shows, even though they don't always paint Mormonism in a good light, they are still getting attention.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:And they're a very evangelical group as far as getting their people out, their message out. Even if you go on Facebook Marketplace, I've noticed this. Maybe it's just because I'm Mormon, I'll see it, but I'll see free Bible and free bible with a conversation and it's like they're posting stuff on facebook marketplace. I've seen stuff it's like free cup, just to like, get your attention, and then it's you know, free cup with the with the bible, and then the next picture is them with their you know, lds badge on um. So they're. It's definitely purposeful that if they are trending, they've got young people influences, influencers that are working for them to try to reach the culture very specifically, um, and then, as far as it looking normal, uh, but being dark shouldn't surprise any christian. I mean, john tells us satan poses as an angel of light, like, and that that is so true of every cult they are. They are trying to hide the, the, you know as jesus calls the, the pharisees, whitewashed tombs. They are trying to hide the gross, disgusting things that are actually inside the church. And so you know, for David and and that friend that went, if you went to a church service, if you were raised Baptist, it would probably feel very familiar to you, especially if you were raised in the fundy Baptist, um, the, the pews are the same, no-transcript the 1820s, you'll still notice similar language now. So a very popular phrase, not used as much anymore. It's just like the, uh, the plan of salvation. That phrase is used for people preaching the gospel, not as much anymore. We'll just, you know, say preaching the gospel. I took them down Romans road, but the plan of salvation was a very popular turn of phrase and so they have like this drawing I remember as a kid of, and we were talking beforehand about. You know what happens after death? They'll start with what they call the premortal existence of. We all existed beforehand and we came down to earth to get a body and then we're gonna get one of these kingdoms, um and so, but they'll call it the plan of salvation and we can get into different doctrines, but they're even they're changing it as as, as the, as the years go by, and this is why they always seem normal, and this is, I guess, the beauty of having a made up religion is, you can always change to adapt the culture and so their doctrine. Now, versus even 50 years ago, black people weren't allowed to be in positions of authority and they had a revelation that changed that. Um, and you read the book of mormon from, you know the original edition. Versus now, it's all very different.
Speaker 4:Um, so, as far as what, what enables them to hide in plain sight is that ability and they're really good at it taking all of the language that we use and changing the meaning, using the same words, but changing the meaning of those words. And so, um, cultish talks about this a lot their podcast that words have words have meanings. Um, and that's a very powerful tool of a cult. The most powerful one and this is what pulled me out is what, what? Who is God? What is, what is the nature of God? And specifically, what do Christians mean? What does the Bible mean when it says Jesus is God? Like that, that phrase is theologically rich, it's the basis of our faith as Christians.
Speaker 4:And you ask a Mormon do you think Jesus is God? They will say yes, and in their minds they're not lying through their teeth. Right Now they don't mean the same thing that we mean at all, but they have. The church has changed the meaning of those words and in their plan of, and they changed that plan of salvation to the plan of happiness because salvation there's no concept of salvation in Mormonism, but they have. The plan is we all become gods. The plan is we all become gods. And so they've got no mental block thinking. I'm being dishonest if I'm telling this person Jesus is God. I do believe.
Speaker 1:Jesus is God.
Speaker 4:But so will I. And really all of Mormonism, really all man-made religions, are a undeifying of God. You know, that's straight from Romans, when they knew God, didn't honor him as God, instead worshiped him as the creator. And all these man-made religions are taking God off the throne and putting man there instead, and so they have used tricky language to be able to fit in. You can have a normal if you don't say expressly what you mean. You can have a normal conversation with a Mormon and, for that matter, Seventh-day Adventist Jehovah Witness, you can have a normal conversation.
Speaker 3:And think we're on the same team. We believe the same thing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:If you don't know their buzzwords, then then would you agree if for somebody that's like, okay, I have a friend who's a Mormon and I can never get past them saying we're the same, what are the questions you would? Just that you would ask that would like? Okay, at this point there's a line in the sand for them to answer this question yeah there's no way around.
Speaker 4:There's no way around it yeah me, I'm a I'm a pretty aggressive person as far as when it gets to the gospel. So I mean, there's tons of stuff you could talk about just the bible and like its authority, because they've got the book of mormon and, uh, you could talk about different minor doctrines and they love actually for you to get caught up in that stuff. They've got those answers ready. But I just go straight for jesus being god person of jesus, personhood, christology.
Speaker 3:yeah, has it okay? You say he's god. Do you believe he's always been and always has been, one with the father and always has been, has been God Absolutely? Yeah, that's the question you would ask I go to.
Speaker 4:we need need to define who God is. There's one God, you know there's one guy, cause they really are polytheistic. They they wouldn't. Maybe, depending on the Mormon you talk to, they might say they are or not, but they are polytheistic. They believe in an infinite number of gods, like, even more than the Hindus, because every single human that has lived and has obeyed the laws and ordinances of the gospel that's one of their phrases is going to be a God. And they believe that the God that they worship, that he was once a man on his own planet, just like us, and that he earned his position and so did everyone else that was living on his planet and he had a God, and so it goes on and on forever, and they call it the doctrine of eternal progression. So they believe I mean it's straight, I mean most important doctrine, who is God? And so I go straight for that. There is one God. He's like you said, he's eternal, he's holy, and actually, you know, we can get into this a little bit.
Speaker 4:When I first came to Snowbird as a Mormon with a friend, the one of the big things for me is you preached Isaiah six and and you are a really good storyteller and you can paint a vivid word picture. And I was listening to Isaiah 6, and I saw in my mind's eye for the first time ever, the glory and majesty and holiness of the God of the Bible, and I literally like, said in my head that's not the God I worship. Like. The God I worship is not holy, he's like he's an exalted man. That's the word. Though he's like me, and so I go. I go straight for who God is, and then Jesus is God. So I go straight for who God is, and then Jesus is God. So I go straight to the Trinity. I spend a lot of time in the Gospel of John whenever I'm sharing the gospel with a Mormon, colossians.
Speaker 3:Colossians 1.
Speaker 2:You really get into his and Hebrews 1.
Speaker 3:And Hebrews 1 is really good. Yeah, those characteristics.
Speaker 4:Because, even specifically in Hebrews, when he starts saying and you need to know Mormon doctrine to get why it's so powerful but because they believe that we were all in heaven before, they think we are angels. And some people, even I'd say the Christians, think that too. Where they take that passage where Jesus says that there won't be marriage in heaven, in heaven they are like angels. Some people interpret that to say that we are angels. But the mormons, they think we were angels beforehand. And, uh, angels are either people who are not gotten the body yet or they've died.
Speaker 4:And so when it says in hebrews that he's greater than the angels, that he's greater than the prophets, that he's greater than the angels, that he's greater than the prophets, that he's greater than Moses, they don't want to have a category of Jesus actually being higher than us. They want him to be literally and they call him an elder brother, like he's above us, in the way that an elder brother is above us, he has the same nature as us. If you have a brother, he has the same nature as us. If you have a brother, he has the same nature of you, the same parents, and he might have a, you know, in your family dynamic. He might have a position of authority or honor, but in essence he's not better than you, he's just. He's just got a different role and that's what they want.
Speaker 1:Would they like worship God in the same sense Like do you got, do you? Would you say that Mormons worship like Joseph Smith?
Speaker 4:Um, they definitely wouldn't say that and I don't know if I would say they worship him. Maybe revere that might mean the same thing, but they hold him in a very reverent regard.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it'd kind of be a similar conversation with the catholic stuff. It'd kind of be a you'd have a similar conversation with a mormon about joseph smith, as they might, as a catholic might, have about mary, like they would deny that they worship mary or saints and I mean they don't pray to joseph smith but they, they, have the highest respect for him. Brigham young, I think, is the one who said no man has done more for the church than joseph smith and he he included jesus christ as as like a man that joseph smith did more than for the church, which is just wild.
Speaker 3:Can we rabbit trail for one second? Don't let me get completely off track here. Okay, I watched a documentary and I don't know how accurate it was that Brigham Young was extremely violent and militant. That when they moved because they migrated from Pacific I mean from Eastern Seaboard New England and migrated out west under persecution on this side of the country, went out there to establish some autonomy and that's how they ended up in such a vast expanse of that area is under sort of Mormon rule, but that it was a militant takeover. They fought Native Americans, they fought the army, they fought settlers. Like is that is there?
Speaker 4:is that true? Oh yeah, absolutely they. Brigham Young especially. He gets um. More recently, like when I was being raised, brigham Young was a hero. But when people started doing history into the Mormon church and things are coming to light, um, a lot of. If you talk to maybe not if you talk to like the leaders in the Mormon church, but if you talk to a Mormon, a lot of times they're pretty apologetic about Brigham Young specifically.
Speaker 3:Oh, um, not as an apologetic. Like they, they feel sorry that, like they have they're like, yeah, Brigham Young.
Speaker 3:Okay sorry, but like they have, they're like, yeah, brigham young, okay okay, because I watched this show. I'm not going to name it. People listening that saw it will know what it is. I watched it by myself. It was like a five-part netflix or prime or something like that. I watched it last, uh, spring. It's a dramatization of brigham young.
Speaker 3:Brigham young and the westward expansion and it and it brings sort of three things into play war with the Native Americans and war with the army and settlers and it makes him out. I mean that dude, it was like more violent than Viking lore, you know, like they're butchering people and killing people to claim and establish their lands. And that's when I went into a deep dive because I never heard any of that. I just thought he was kind of a wacko cult leader. But most cult leaders either become very violent and or very sexual. Yes, so it makes sense that they did both. There's always going to be sex, sexual perversion, so polygamy check makes sense and I know mainstream Mormons in the East here don't practice that, but it's always going to be sexually perverse. There's always going to be some degree of violence to grow and expand the brand. And so Brigham Young seemed to have been a guy that really took those to the extremes.
Speaker 4:Yeah, on that, I am always seeing similarities between Mormonism and Islam. And even Brigham Young, joseph Smith, was violent himself, and even there's like one thing that I might go through with a Mormon is the prophet test in the Old Testament where it says um, god is giving the, the israelites, a command, uh and a, and a good word to test a prophet. He says you know, if they, if they say that they are speaking from god and then they foretell a future event and it doesn't come true, stone them, they're false prophet like they're not speaking for god, because god knows everything, he doesn't lie.
Speaker 4:And then also, interestingly enough, he says if they foretell an event, and it comes true, because you know they're demons, that you know the, the demon possessed girl that was following paul, told the future and she, accurately, was talking about paul. If they, if they foretell the future and it comes true, but they say let's go worship a different god, stone them. You know they're, they're not, obviously not from god. And so a very powerful proof is to just look at justice smith's prophecies and they've got a book of them they call the doctrine and covenants, and a lot of them are so vague, or their rules, not really prophecy, it's just saying he's speaking from God and he's saying, oh hey, we're not allowed to drink coffee or smoke tobacco.
Speaker 4:But some of them are absolutely predictions of the future, and one of them, in this aggressive vein this is what made me think of it is he was pretty much at war with the american government and they were taking their land uh, you know, for good reason. And he said if they don't give us back this land I'd have to look up exactly the wording but if they don't give us back this land, then america is going to be destroyed, annihilated. And then they didn't give them back the land and they kept having to move westward. And america's still here today, we're, we're still a nation. So they were definitely at war. Um, they, they, they'll definitely play the victim card for all of everything that went on, with joseph smith and brigham young saying we tried to live here peaceably and they just hated us because we were different. And there there might've been some of that. Um, there's always zeal um there, but there was definitely violence, um, on both sides of wherever they went.
Speaker 4:There's even a famous massacre that the Mormons committed that's what that movie portrayed.
Speaker 3:Okay, that series. It portrays that massacre. Yeah and amen. They portray it brutally, like 125 people or something. There's a big number of women, children, yeah, I didn't know that yeah, and so how like so when you're growing up in the mormon church? Now you're not being taught.
Speaker 3:Everything's being taught through a filter or a lens, I'm assuming whereas let me make the comparison we do not filter when we teach the old testament, the new covenant. The new covenant under christ brings in uh, clarity to the old covenant. If jesus said I didn't come to abolish that, but I came to fulfill it, the law, which is the law, the covenants, that which pre-existed Christ, that God had put in place for Israel. Paul writes about it to the Romans in Romans 10, romans 9, 10, and 11. I can give an answer for the God of the Old Testament.
Speaker 3:I don't hide from that. But there's context to all of it and uh and so we don't shy away from it. There's some hard conversations, but we don't shy away from them. Um and so when, when you're growing up mormon and you're like you're, I'd like for you to talk a little bit about seminary. When you're, I guess, in high school and you're attending your weekly seminary classes, what do they say about that? Or do they just focus on this sort of neo-contemporary form of Mormonism? So maybe there's some history there, but as far as the doctrine and belief, it's neo, it's contemporary, it's what's that? How does all of that fit.
Speaker 4:Well, I think that's a really good point for the bible, you know one, the bible never makes apologies. Some christian try to make apologies for the things that god did, but as far as character wise, like the bible is very careful to let us know the flaws of the people that were trying to serve God. Like David fell, you know, moses was rebuked for hitting the rock with the staff. Um, there's all Abraham when his why and and lying about his wife, all of these things there's. There's a sin for every hero of the faith and it really isn't that for Joseph Smith. They've got. So much of our childhood was hearing these martyr-like stories and Joseph Smith's martyrdom, as Joseph Smith was too good for this world he was like jesus.
Speaker 3:Joseph smith is not like abraham david gideon.
Speaker 4:Joseph smith is like jesus, because there is no flaw with jesus yes, in fact, I remember specifically, um, they portrayed joseph as like this pariah of Is pariah the right word, I don't know this perfect example of like, perfect character, even from a young age, and they'll tell a story of he had to get some of his bone removed, like from his leg, and a doctor had to go in and they didn't have anesthesia and they had to go in and give him this extremely painful surgery. And we're like this isn't the form of a animated movie. We're watching this animated movie of the life of joseph smith and we were watching it over and over as kids and it's like him, him at a young age, he has this bone disease and he's like saying these brave things, like I can do it, papa, and like he's just perfect, even from a young age. And then, when he becomes older, he's all of his and he'll say this in his he'll in his own words all of his family went to different churches. Uh, he had a big family and some of them were going to like baptist or methodist I don't actually know what the actual churches they were going to were, but it was.
Speaker 4:His zeal for the Lord was so great that he diligently sought out and he had to find the truth. He could not settle for the fact that there were multiple churches. He thought it was so terrible and he read James if any of you lack wisdom, and they'll say that passage over and over and over again and they'll just use it as an example. That's what Joseph Smith did. He said if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask God. And the story is he was doing that and went into the woods to pray and was attacked by Satan.
Speaker 4:It's kind of a similar passage in sounding to like when Abraham is about to get the promise and this deep darkness comes upon him. It's kind of a strange passage, but it's they. They use that kind of thing where it's like he's wrestling with Satan and then, uh, two personages appear that's their wording and it's the father and the son. They look exactly the same in the, in all their pictures and and the father comes down and he says this is my son, listen to him. And then that's when he gets this revelation. And actually this specific phrase if we get into me, hearing the gospel is a form of counter evangelism. They, they, all these cults.
Speaker 4:They train their cult members to rebuff our evangelistic efforts okay and one of the phrases that that that the son gave to joseph in that uh revelation was all of the churches have some of the truth, but they do not have the full revelation. And so anytime that you're out and hearing something that's different that's the phrase that would go off in my head is, you'll hear some things that you like and some things you don't, and you're like, oh yeah, that's right, they do have some of the truth, but they don't have all of it. So anytime they start talking about the deity of Christ, about the authority of scripture, that buzz will go off and think oh, that's where they're off. They don't have the full revelation of Christ. So, to answer that question, Joseph Smith is a hero, he is the archetype, he is without error and the story of his martyrdom is, like it's also said, like he knew it was going to happen and he had peace about it and he went to his death willingly, like a brave heart.
Speaker 4:We'll take our lives, we'll never take our freedom, and he walked into it, you know, boldly and and just died um, that he knew um. So they're very careful to portray justice now. Maybe different now, because that was 25 years ago for me, um, and, like I said, there's a lot of stuff history coming out where they're more apologetic. Um, but when I was raised, it was Joseph Smith is the hero he is. He is the best person that ever lived. Um, and then seminary. That was a it's a different part of your question, seminary. I really don't remember if it was once a week or every day, but it was like it would just look like a Bible study.
Speaker 3:It's before school in the morning.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was before school and you didn't have to go, but it was. There's a lot of things that were maybe not required, but like were essentially required, like if you wanted, if you wanted people to respect you in the church, um, and that happened lots of places, but it was was this just for guys, or guys and girls?
Speaker 4:It was guys and girls. So, um, usually this might work different in in places like Utah and Arizonarizona, but I was in, I'm in, I was from georgia near atlanta, and so it's really interesting too, just as a side note, how different these cults will act when they're the majority versus the minority. And so I was in the minority and so we, we probably acted a lot different than the people in utah, where everything was normal. So we were like we were the elect exiles in the as the minority group. Okay, uh, we were the, we were the people who were trampled but, you know, not conquered. Um, that was the mentality, and so it was just the people who went to my high school and all said, for that area, I think there was like 15 to 20.
Speaker 4:I went to a big high school. It was like 260, etowah in Woodstock, georgia, and so it was my graduating class was 260. And I think all the classes were like that. So, and then 20 out of all those grades were Mormon, and so we went to the bishop's house, so we drove to his house every morning and there was like a four-year rotation of scripture memory and it was, I think it was one a week, and so it was like you went through the old Testament and then the new Testament and then the book of Mormon and maybe the doctrine and covenants, um was. You had like 30 or so memory versus, and I still remember a good bit of them.
Speaker 3:Are those verses from the Bible, or from the book of Mormon, or from the Doctrine and Covenant? What were the verses so you have memorized some verses from the King James Bible, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, King.
Speaker 3:James. So you have memorized verses from the King James Bible. You have memorized verses from the Book of Mormon.
Speaker 4:And the Doctrine and Covenant.
Speaker 3:And then the Doctrine and Covenant.
Speaker 4:Okay, yeah, and they were a lot of. The ones in the Bible were ones that were very closely tied, that they had given new interpretations to, but I still remember the one that specifically comes to my mind is Ezekiel, and it's Ezekiel talking he's getting a revelation and there's two scrollss and the two scrolls become one and they will take that and say this first scroll is the bible and the second scroll is the book of mormon, and they became one. And then the other one that's very similar is jesus saying I have other sheep that are not of this fold, which is very clear, talking about gentiles versus jews. But for the mormons they are jews in their mind, they, even if you go to the temple, they'll tell you what tribe you are like. Through revelation, they'll tell you your tribe.
Speaker 4:Um, okay, I've never heard that. Yeah, and if you were not, if you don't have a tribe, then you get adopted essentially into levi, and so, either way, you are, um, you are an israelite, you're not a gentile. What was your tribe? I don't, I never went and did it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like oh, you have to go there yes, it's, it's something that you do.
Speaker 4:A lot of things. Things are like I don't know, tiered to age. So I got out earlier than the mission and it's called like the endowment ceremony and some of it. I'm kind of losing and it's so long ago. But when you turn 16, then if you're a boy, then you get the no, it's 12.
Speaker 4:12 is the Aaronic priesthood and they've got two priesthoods and they'll take that passage in Hebrews you are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek and they'll say there are two priesthoods and they'll ordain young men in the Aaronic priesthood when they're 12, and they'll have different roles that they are allowed to perform within the church. The main one is really just passing out sacrament on Sundays. That's the main role. They're supposed to lead in service projects and different things. That's the main ceremonial thing that you can have once you're 12. When you're 16, you get the Melchizedek priesthood and that still has some tears. Then you're able to bless the sacrament and then you're able to bless people. But there's a ceremony in the temple and there's a couple of them, so I might not get the name right, but there's one where you get a blessing. I think it's called the patriarchal blessing. So you go and there's a patriarch in the temple and he'll bless you. He'll give you uh, your tribe name and a blessing.
Speaker 3:This would be at your local church this is a pilgrimage to, this is a like, a pilgrimage out to Utah.
Speaker 4:No, you would.
Speaker 3:Where's the temple?
Speaker 4:The temple. I mean the temples are all over the place.
Speaker 3:Okay, so your local church is different from the temple?
Speaker 4:Yes, okay, yes, so they've got local church buildings that you'll see them. You know the Church of Jesus Christ the one in Murphy, for example, is you go down that that road. You'll see it on the left after the foot doctor um, and it just looks like a normal church and it's got the big sign right there. The temples are much more ornate and classy, so probably the closest one to here is in atlanta. They have them in most major cities in america by Um and some States like Utah and Arizona. I'm sure there's several um. They've got them in most countries. So on Sunday you would go to your church and then the temple is for ceremonies specifically like the certain rights and and ceremonies that that they would perform. Things like getting that patriarchal blessing, getting baptized for the dead, is a thing that they practice. They think that you can get people into the next kingdom We'll maybe talk about that but if they weren't a mormon in their life, you can get baptized for them and you kind of get them an upgrade after death.
Speaker 1:Okay, so if you like, if I was just born into a mormon family, would I just be considered, I guess, saved, or like is there like a decision that you guys make? What does that look like?
Speaker 4:so there really isn't the word saved. And if we get into my story a little bit, when I was getting saved my friends told me I needed to get saved and I said I don't know what that means okay, I had no concept of salvation. So there really isn't salvation.
Speaker 3:It would be more like you're one of us it's like being born a jew in old testament israel yeah, yeah you're born into you're.
Speaker 4:You're a member of a covenant community yes, and it is a big day when you get baptized okay, um, and what does that look like?
Speaker 1:like a regular baptism?
Speaker 4:it does. It's a. It's a little funny because they they have someone watching to make sure you go all the way under the water, but they're very passionate about it being complete immersion and if you, if you get baptized and like your leg came up or your nose was poking out, they're like baptize them again.
Speaker 3:You didn't go all the way under.
Speaker 4:But most people, if you're raised in church, you get baptized at eight, eight years old and that's borrowing from that whole age of accountability that was big in at that time. Eight was the age of accountability. So and they'll use that phrase, They'll say they'll literally. I remember my parents telling me when I was like seven, up until like ready to turn eight up until now you haven't been responsible for your sins, I have. They're my sins, you're not accountable. And then when I turned eight, I'm suddenly accountable. So now I need that washing. And this is actually not just Mormonism, but this was big Again. All of this stuff is big in the 1820s. There's a lot of misconceptions around that time about what baptism was around that time, about what baptism was, and so the Mormons. There was at least this culture of your sins. From the time you get baptized or washed away, but not after you have to go do all of these things now to be in good standing.
Speaker 4:Like mission or stuff like that Mission serving in the church getting married in the temple, and even to the point where, when I was in high school and starting to rebel and getting sin, my friends and I would talk and we would envy the people who got like. We'd see. There are some people who converted when they're like 60 after being able to live a rough, being able to live a rough life, and we're like man, I wish, wish I hadn't been raised Mormon. I wish I had been able to be really old and so then I'd have more sins washed away when I got baptized. So it was really bad understanding of what baptism is at all, but they still have baptism. That's another thing that makes it seem like oh.
Speaker 4:Christians baptize people and they get baptized. And if you don't know what baptism is, then that's just normal.
Speaker 3:You could show up to that local church and there'd be somebody getting baptized on that Sunday and it would just look like a baptism at an independent, fundamental Baptist church. Yes, okay, yep.
Speaker 1:So I really do want to get into your story, but I'm struggling to understand, like, like, let's say, I just walked into a mormon church and was like hey, like I want to convert. Like what would that process look like? Like you said something about like the dead baptism, like would I be considered like dead, and then no, it's for actual dead people. Oh, it's like that's okay, I did not realize that.
Speaker 4:That's crazy. You are it's baptism through proxy. You are their proxy. So I got baptized for my grandpa. Like my grandpa was not a Mormon, my family became.
Speaker 4:Mormon when I was four, they converted okay so this is why you know, mormons are big for family history and they're known for that. They, you know they're huge family history nerds. The main reason for that is that's how, that for them, that is a mission field, because they're looking up names and figuring out who's related to them. That's how, for them, that is a mission field, because they're looking up names and figuring out who's related to them. That's a Mormon that can get baptized for them. So in their mind, they're doing evangelism, in a sense like they're getting people to better places in heaven by looking up family history and then getting baptized for them. Does that make sense? Yes, for someone who was wanting to convert, they would probably. I was four when we went through it, but it would be mainly with the missionaries.
Speaker 4:That was kind of their job and they would take you through a class, kind of like a new members class at a church, and and really what happened with my family is they came to our door like as, as they do, Really. Uh, they came to our door and my mom um, let's do this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let's take a break. Um, stretch your legs, get a drink of water, and let's come back and start right there and let's roll into Josh's story, cause I'd really like to hear just hear that all in one piece.
Speaker 1:Okay, Y'all, we took a break recording Um. So that's going to wrap up the part one of these two episodes, Um. Make sure you tune in for part two where Josh really gets into his upbringing and just more of his testimony. Super encouraging, super interesting story. I hope you guys enjoyed so far and we'll see you next time for the part two. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening to no Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at SWOutfitterscom to see all of our programming and resources, and we'll see you next week on no Sanity Required.
