No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
Shroud of Turin: Real, Relic, or Reminder?
In this episode, Brody and Rob dive into the fascinating mystery of the Shroud of Turin—a centuries-old cloth that many believe may have wrapped the body of Jesus after His crucifixion. They explore what the shroud is, some of its history, and the scientific curiosity surrounding the image imprinted on it—an image no one has been able to fully explain.
While the science and history behind it are fascinating, they remind us that our faith isn’t in artifacts, but in the truth of Scripture and the eyewitnesses of Jesus' resurrection.
Still, the shroud could be a “wink from God”—an encouragement for believers or a spark for those seeking truth.
- John 20:6-7
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Hey, in this week's episode of no Sanity Required this is take three, by the way, because somebody forgot to hit record I got Rob Conte back on the podcast and it's because we're going to be talking about the Shroud of Turin. If you're not familiar with what that is, you're going to love this content, this episode. It's going to be awesome. Yesterday we celebrated the resurrection of Jesus. Most people call it Easter. People call it Easter at our church, at Red Oak. We love to call it Resurrection Sunday.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty sure the word Easter is pagan, that's neither here nor there, but yesterday we celebrated the resurrection of Jesus, and so today we want to talk about something that's getting a lot of press right now and that's the Shroud of Turin. Again, if you'reroud of Turin, again, if you're not familiar with this, I think you're going to really enjoy this episode. It's probably going to push you down a rabbit hole of your own research and I. What I would say is just jump on and go for the ride, because it's awesome, it's fascinating stuff and I think you'll be. I think you'll be encouraged, excited, and the the possibilities of what this means are pretty exciting. So thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of no Sanity Required.
Speaker 2:Welcome to no Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters. A podcast about the Bible, culture and stories from around the globe.
Speaker 1:All right, so I the first time. I want to start off by sort of explaining. I basically just want to turn this all over to you, but I do want to intro this by saying you're the person that introduced me to the Shroud of Turin. Do you say Turin?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that was probably 15 years ago.
Speaker 3:Yeah, at least somewhere in there.
Speaker 1:Maybe 20 years ago. I mean, this is it's. I think for a lot of people this is a brand new thing, but it's something we've had a thousand conversations about on road trips or sitting around the fire, right. But it's sort of resurfacing right now and there's some exciting new I don't know what you call it new details that are emerging, new discovery, and so I'm excited to get into this. So why don't you just like hit, play and let's, let's go?
Speaker 3:so, yeah, uh, I think, for for me, um, I had not been a believer long, you know, god save me. I was 18, um, and I think the first time I came across anything about the shroud was, uh, I was I think it was around easter time, around, you know celebrating the resurrection, passion Week and I was flipping around on TV and on the History Channel they were doing a documentary on it and I just stopped to watch it and I was blown away to where it was back in the day when, at the end of the program, they put on a 1-800 number if you wanted to order the cassette or the videotape. So I ordered, I got on there and bought it and because I wanted, you know, other people to see it, I wanted to watch it with my mom at the time and, uh, so I had that VHS tape for a while. I don't know where it ended up, but uh, so that was the first time I was ever introduced to it and I've been fascinated by it since.
Speaker 3:And there's so much information on it which the Shroud of Turin is the most studied artifact in human history, like nothing else ever has been studied as much as it. And which is crazy, because there are there are a lot of people who have never heard about it much as it. And, which is crazy, because there are, there are a lot of people who've never heard about it, I think, especially in the Protestant tradition, I think most Catholics will have heard of it. Uh, and maybe that'll kind of come out during the talk as to why. But, um, but yeah, for most Protestants they've not heard about it, or if they have, it's maybe been more of a negative spin on it. Um, but I've been fascinated by been fascinated by it. Now, granted, the documentary I first watched was definitely more slanted towards a positive view of it.
Speaker 3:And so what the Shroud is, what the Shroud of Tern is. It's a 14-foot long by about 4 foot wide piece of linen cloth that is currently held and kept protected in a church in Turin, italy. So that's where it gets its name the Shroud of Turin. And the reason why it's significant and that people are interested in it is because there appears to be the image of a crucified man on it, as well as bloodstains, and so what some people believe it to be is the actual burial cloth of Christ be is the actual burial cloth of christ.
Speaker 3:Um, so when he's taken down from the cross, taken to the tomb, that he was laid in this burial cloth and that, the instant that the resurrection happens, this image is somehow embedded onto the cloth, and and so again, it's the most studied artifact in human history, over I think they estimate it's over 500,000 hours of not just study, but like being studied by multiple scientists. Cross-disciplinary experts from all different fields have poured a significant part of their career into studying different aspects of the shroud, which, in the end, the big takeaway is no one really believes it's a forgery anymore, but they don't know how the image is on there. Uh, they don't know. There's no known way of producing the image that's on the shroud, um, so that's fascinating.
Speaker 3:In and of itself you know, um and so, uh, yeah, there's just a lot of facets of what they've discovered in the last, really since 1978, the first time it was really studied by scientists.
Speaker 1:So prior to 1978, it was in the possession of this church in Italy. How long had it been in their possession and what was the nature of that possession? Did they have it on display? Was it like a secret thing? My brain automatically goes to those Nicolas Cage movies about the Constitution.
Speaker 3:He's one of the guys that studied it. Yeah, Okay, perfect.
Speaker 1:So I just want to make sure he's involved. Is this Con Air Nicolas Cage with the fake southern accent?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, or is this the guy from the face, nicholas Cage? Okay?
Speaker 1:all right, leaving Graceland, I mean Las Vegas, right, okay so, but in all seriousness, my mind kind of goes to you know the Illuminati movies, the? You know the um, what, what are the guys called in that? Um, the reason I brought that movie up, um, the knights templar right and and all that, like that's where my imagination goes, and there's so much lore and and so much of that is apocryphal. But then some of it is real and historical and you tie in the Masons. Yeah, so prior to 1978, this church had it and what was the nature of their possession and how long had they had it?
Speaker 3:So for most of the documented history of the Shroud, which dates back to 1349. 1349.
Speaker 1:1349.
Speaker 3:And I say documented, because there are. There's appearings of the Shroud before that, paintings, letters going by a different name. Obviously it wasn't. It hasn't always been the Shroud Turin or it hasn't always been at the Church in Turin, but for most of its history it wasn't actually part of the, officially part of the Catholic church. It was in the possession of a French family I forget the family's name, but it was like a family heirloom and so it was sometime in the 80s I believe the 1980s that the Catholic church actually they possess it. Now they own it and I think it's directly under the authority of the Pope himself.
Speaker 3:Throughout its history it's really only gone on display at certain times, like holy days, certain events, but for a lot of its history, yeah, it really was just kept secret or forgotten or it was just being protected. It seemed like the shroud in the, you know, in the the middle ages, was being moved around, a lot like it was just escaping danger, survived a few different fires. It was actually on fire at one point and had to be doused with water, which you can still see when you look at the images of the shroud. You see the damage done by the fire, um, but yeah, it was like always kind of escaping danger until it landed in turin. Um, I don't know what year it got there off the top of my head. I could look up the time.
Speaker 1:What was 1978? What was significant about that? What?
Speaker 3:was significant about 1978 is that the church allowed a group of scientists to study it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:It ended up being like a five-day window it was a certain number of hours they were going to allow them access to study it. And so this group I think there was 33 to 35 scientists, cross-disciplinary that came in and were able to x-ray it, take photographs under different lighting, use sticky tape like a forensic investigator would do at a crime scene, you know, like using tape to capture, uh, whatever microscopic um properties might be on the shroud. And so they did all they. They did all their collecting of data at that time, um, which launched into what still is being studied today.
Speaker 3:What's fascinating, there is that group of scientists, most of whom, from the best I understand at the time, most of them were not believers, and they went into it saying we're going to be able to prove it's a hoax. There's one guy that's his quote comes up a lot that he said give me 15 minutes in the scientific method and I'll prove it's a hoax, it's a forgery. And yeah that they spent five days trying to figure out how, what am I looking at? What is this? How did it get here? Um, and so a lot of those guys. It seemed like I don't want to say a lot, but a number of those guys became believers. Most all of them came to a point where they would say that a lot of these guys have passed away. I learned that and it's kind of sector, I don't know what go I am on getting interested in it and studying stuff again.
Speaker 3:But as I was doing that this go around, you know, found out a lot of them had passed away, but that, yeah, a lot of them came to the place of at least being able to say the probability that it's not the burial cloth of Jesus is astronomically low. Like one mathematician in the group said, it's like one in 200 million that it's not Jesus. So, which is interesting, because you still I mean even in this study like, if you start looking at it, you know it's going to start popping on your algorithm or whatever, and you're going to find plenty of YouTube videos and people saying, ah, it's a forgery, it's a hoax, and I watched a lot of those. There's not a lot of substance to them, but there's still people who just claim some sort of expertise and say things authoritatively that just seem like they're I mean, they're just not true. But I think there's one in Christian circles. Maybe a fear of, oh, that's just too outside the box, like would would cause. That's a.
Speaker 3:I recently taught a group of eighth graders on it in, you know, definitely different teaching than you know. If I'm opening up the Bible, this is very much, at the end of the day, you go. I don't know, maybe, like, do I think it of the day you go? I don't know, maybe, like, do I think it's authentic? I don't know, maybe it's fascinating and the implications of it are ginormous, because it's how I opened with those kids was I said okay, is the Shroud of Turin? Is it a hoax? Is it a forgery from 700 years ago? Or is it a picture of Jesus Christ the instant before he opened his eyes in resurrection? It's fascinating and every time I walk through the evidence, the data, I come away going I think I'm looking at the face of Jesus. I don't know that for sure. I told those kids.
Speaker 3:I joke and say I just make up a percentage. I say I'm like 90%. Sure I'm looking at Jesus, but as far as what the shroud means for my faith, my relationship with the Lord, well, I'd say 0%. Our faith is based on the witness of Scripture. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
Speaker 3:Jesus' conversation with Thomas, I think, is so helpful, where he says, yeah, blessed are you because you've seen and believed, but blessed are those who don't see and believe, right. Or he says you believe because you've seen. Blessed are those who believe and haven't seen, and so I don't. To me, if the shroud is legit, shroud is legit. It's not like oh, now we got the proof and we can take it around the world 100 like you can't argue against it and people are going to flock to christ. Like jesus already said, people won't believe even if I come back from the dead. He already came back from the dead 2,000 years ago and people still don't believe because it's a sin issue, it's not an evidence issue. But I do think that maybe it's like a really cool wink from God and something that we do have and it's just to me. I do get encouraged by it and the thought of what it might really be.
Speaker 1:I want other people to be encouraged by it because it is fun and it's exciting, and we believe in the resurrection of Jesus, not because of the Shroud of Turin. We believe in the resurrection of Jesus because of the proofs that God has provided to us, and faith does come by hearing, and hearing does come through the Word of God, through the Word of Christ, and we have all of those that abandoned Jesus when he was arrested and when he was going through his trials, that then are willing to die for him. Clearly something changed that made them go from abandoning their closest friend and their rabbi, their mentor. You know, I don't have a mentor in my life now. I've had a couple that have gone to be with the Lord, but they're not people that I would have abandoned in their hour of need. Right, you know, we say well, but we're not, we're not mentoring each other. We're brothers in ministry in christ. But I have no doubt that I could call you in my worst hour of need. Or you have no doubt, like there's and that's true of the, the Oak community, the Snowbird community. I'm going to be there. If I've got to die with you, I'm going to die with you. I really believe that. Yeah, I think I can honestly say that those guys were so shook that they wouldn't stick by their friend, and I think we got to give them a little bit of grace, because, to me, if you zoom out, you go.
Speaker 1:What does it take for a person to abandon their closest friend, and for all of them to do it? This was not just they were scared of the Romans. I think it's more than that. I think they were scared of being punished or dying for something that was a hoax. I think their faith wavered. It's not. I don't want to be true to my friend. It's whoa wait. What if he? What if he is crazy? What if he is a madman? What if he is diabolical? What if it is a hoax? Or, you know, maybe for some of them, maybe that's what they're wrestling with. Am I out of line to say that?
Speaker 3:no, to a degree that I don't think you're out of line, you know. I think we can speculate, you know. Yeah, it was for some of them just straight up fear just freaked out, I'm gonna get crucified too yeah like man have I been suckered have I been yeah, was I. Was I deceived by a?
Speaker 1:false messiah. You know'm sure all that was going on, so much that could have been going on in their minds. I mean, it's coming at you so fast, yeah. And the emotion of the upper room and the Last Supper and all that had happened during the Holy Week, the Passion Week, and so all it took for the switch to flip. Something switched the flip for them, boys and girls, to where they're getting crucified upside down or getting run through with spears. One of them I mean multiple of them go to the far ends of the Roman Empire and beyond and ultimately die for their faith. Yeah, what switched was that they were eyewitnesses to the resurrected lord and something happens in acts one, when they're all gathered before jesus's ascension. That stands out to me. It says that his brothers and sisters are there, and five brothers are named and plural sisters is used. So there were at least two sisters. So the Catholics believe that Mary practiced perpetual virginity and so that Jesus' siblings were the offspring of Joseph and another wife Is that correct.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or that they're cousins, or that they're cousins.
Speaker 1:But they're not Mary's children. We believe that mary gave birth to other sons and daughters and that mary and joseph were in a biblical monogamous marriage and that they produced more children and that that there's two monumental moments in jesus's life with his siblings and in relation in regard his siblings One where they want to put him in a straight jacket and lock him in a padded room, basically because he's out preaching and they're like we got to get him, he's lost his mind. These are his siblings. And then another point where there's a point of contention in a public setting, where he sort of has to rebuke his family, but then in the end they're all there willing to die for him. What flipped that switch? It's the resurrection. We believe in the resurrection of Jesus because of the proofs laid out for us in Scripture, the eyewitness accounts, the word of God that's living and active. But the Shroud of Turin is one of the coolest. Yeah, you use the word wink if god's.
Speaker 1:If god has done this, it's. So. I think there's two things that that it can, and so now we're going to get into. We're going to get into what, how we might know if it's authentic or not. We're going to deep dive into that. But I just want to say, for people that are not believers, this could be something that moves the needle. It you know, I think god, god could use anything as long as it's not contrary to the gospel, so it could be an what we would call a tool of apologetics, but then for the believer, it could be a burst of fresh air in your spiritual lungs of just which is what it's been for me so many times Like, this is so cool if this is real. So what makes you think that there's a strong likelihood that this is real?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So to me the evidence for it to be a forgery at this stage is minuscule. The evidence that this is an ancient burial cloth that's from Israel and that all the between the bloodstains and the imaging, the more evidence that comes from it, the more that it's studied and that there's new methods of studying it only tend to lend towards it's legit. Now, to this day, there's still no way of knowing how the image was produced. There can be speculation, but any any man-made uh, there's. No, no, there's no known man-made way to produce the image.
Speaker 3:Uh. So for me, the you know the knock that comes against it where some people still just dismissed, it is so that team in 78 that examined the shroud, they uh were able to actually take samples of it. They they clipped samples off of the shroud and then that those samples were sent to three different labs to be, uh, carbon dated, radiocarbon dating, and so they had them for whatever period of time, and then all three labs released the date, the range that they thought the carbon dating showed, and it put it in the Middle Ages, it put it as 700 years old, give or take, and so that just seemed to be deflating to everybody involved. Uh, but with that, other people still said okay, well, show us the data. Well, they never. All they released was the date, and so they hadn't released the data how they they haven't released how they came to that conclusion uh, just yeah, show your work.
Speaker 3:You know I think if they were in a court of law or whatever and using okay, yeah, we came up with this date. Okay, well, you're just not going to say here's the number, see you later. Like, yeah, share the scientific proof. And so they. Actually, it was a long I think a 20-year battle to get them to release their information and they finally did. I think a 20-year battle to get them to release their information and they finally did.
Speaker 3:And when they did, it seems like most of the community that actually studies the shroud it was almost like our eye roll moment because the they didn't follow strict procedures and guidelines that would be like considered scientific um and they also uh used and from what I understand, they didn't use multiple uh samplings. They all took the same sample and it seems like that was from the edge of the shroud and it seems like they took a part of the shroud that had been repaired. So you know mentioned earlier that the shroud had been in a few fires and that it's you know if it is 2,000 years old, that at some point I don't know, 700 years ago, they decided to actually put a. They sewed a backing onto it, but they also, it seems like maybe they repaired the edges onto it, but they also, it seems like maybe they repaired the edges. Um, and so it's what seems very possible.
Speaker 3:Is they carbon dated? A part of the shroud that is 700 years old, wow, now there's other arguments that are made too that that you know, because their work was so shoddy, what it seems like, and that they didn't, they weren't willing to even release that for 20 years. It calls into question, like some integrity issues, you know also. Okay, did they actually clean it properly? Did they handle you know? Did they do what they were supposed to do to get the best sampling possible? It seems like no. It seems like no. But also taking into consideration that it had damage from the fire, the smoke that it absorbed, all these things that apparently can throw off carbon dating, not an expert.
Speaker 3:I'm just reading and listening to other people talk about these things, so it's dubious at best, if you don't mind me using that term.
Speaker 1:No, I don't mind.
Speaker 3:But and so if again? But that was like the, that was like the one thing that seemed like ah, yeah, maybe, maybe some artists painted it for whatever reason, but but that's where the all the other data points to. Well, there's no paint on it. And that's what those guys thought. They thought they'd be able to walk up. The one guy said I thought I'd be able to walk up, look at the shroud with a magnifying glass or a microscope, see the strokes of a paintbrush and call it a day. They thought they'd find paint, dye, chalk, powder. None of that exists on there. Exist on there.
Speaker 3:And so what you have is, if you're looking at imaging of this online, you know there's what you see with the naked eye when you look at the shroud there's clearly bloodstains and then there's the faint image of an anatomically correct man. They estimate it's somewhere between five feet ten and six foot, which even that's interesting, because initially I was like why is there a range? And what it seems like is because his body. What they can now tell by studying it that the man whose image is on the shroud when that image was made he was in a state of rigor mortis, um, so that he slightly bent forward just a little bit with his head. In that position, one knee is elevated above the other. Um, the way his hands are positioned that that when that moment happened, whatever made the image, he's in a state of rigor mortis. So even that, like so, there's a range for like 5'10 to 6', which is also awesome, like above average.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean average then was 5'5 or something.
Speaker 3:Right, which is when I should have been alive.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:But so if you look at the naked eye, you see it's there and obviously that's all they could do for a long time with it. But they knew it was enough of an image to know like is this Jesus? Because of where the wounds are, how the wounds appear, Could you describe the wounds? On the shroud. To me, that's the biggest part of it, where I often get focused my time. I want to talk about one thing before then.
Speaker 3:If you're familiar at all with the shroud, you know this. What blew the scientist away, beyond just walking away, going we don't know is when a picture was taken of the Shroud. And then, as they're developing that image, you know back when it wasn't just with somebody's phone but it was like film and a camera, and they're developing that film and they saw the negative of the picture that they took. They they literally like, gassed like, because what ends up happening is in the negative of the picture that they took, the details of the shroud become so much more clear. Now I get out of my depth quick. I I'm not a scientist, but we're a photo expert. But apparently what happens is that the shroud itself, the image that's on a linen cloth, like it, behaves as if it's the negative, so that when a photograph of the shroud is taken and you look at the negative of that photograph, that negative now behaves like a positive so it's what's more clear it takes away some of the distortion.
Speaker 3:So they all of a sudden were looking at a much more clear image of the man on the shroud wow and so the wounds become more vivid and and everything else you know, and so is there anything else in history that's like that?
Speaker 3:that's unique that's very unique, and so there's. There's been people who have, for whatever motivations, tried to besides, just like scientific exploration. There's been people who have reproduced images that look like the shroud of turin, but but they're not like it. They can make it look like it to the naked eye and behave in a similar fashion, but scientists could look at what they did and say, oh no, you did this, you used a piece of glass and paint and and bleach the rest of the Like.
Speaker 3:they can explain how it was made. So it's not what the shroud is. So there's things that people can have done to manipulate to get a similar effect, but they can't reproduce what the shroud is, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:It does so with the 1978, the five-day exploration of the Shroud. Has there been another one since then? At one point you said that was the only time it was ever studied, but then in more recent years.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so definitely, people have been able to continue to work off of the data and the things that they collected, things that they collected um. But I, I believe uh, I'm not 100 on this, but I believe that this new dating um tool has been used directly on the shroud. I'm not positive. If it was, that's, all I can think is that they must have had access to the shroud itself. But there's a new method of dating things of the ancient world, um, and so it seems like they use. It's called a let me look at it and get it right it's called a wide angle x-ray imaging uh device. Uh, but so apparently, what it? It measures the rate of decay in an item, and so so I think and this, this was new.
Speaker 3:I've never, I've not heard this. I I'd heard some rumblings about the shroud again, but I didn't what, for whatever reason, didn't go down the rabbit hole. But so when I picked it up here more recently, uh, this has happened in the last couple years that they use this x-ray dating machine, uh on the shroud and it puts it at 2000 years old. Now I think it's got its own, probably ball of wax. As far as the limitations, what could manipulate it or pervert the dating, I think the same as carbon dating. But it just is fascinating because also there's been archaeologists have found a site in Israel where there's plenty of tombs and they found more linen cloths, just like the shroud, the same material, the same weave, the same method of burial, and so they've been able to have other linen cloths that they know are from the region, that they know are from that time, based on the archaeological find, and come up with the same date in measuring it as the Shroud of Turin. So you know, again, it's not like if that stood alone maybe it would be like well, who knows, it's a new technique, but with everything else, go all right so when you compare it to something that archaeologists have found and know is from 2 000 years ago, right it
Speaker 3:matches as far as dating it through a 14-foot long linen cloth and it appears the way that at least the man in the shroud and these other findings that what would happen is they would put the body in. I heard one guy say it feels crude in the moment, but you know, basically like how a pita acts, like you know. But the body, if part of the shroud is laid out this way and the body's laid on it, and then the rest of the shroud would just be folded over, like like a pita, um, and so that the imaging on the shroud is on all 14 feet of it, give or take, uh, because some of it is the imaging of his back, from the top of his head to the heels of his feet. It's the entire backside and then the other side of the shroud is the front, so that when he was in the shroud, like this, whatever caused that image to be embedded on the shroud, it happened in all directions, and so I mentioned earlier there's blood stains on the shroud, those pints of blood that are on the shroud, a lot of blood, and so there's concentrated area.
Speaker 3:The heaviest area of blood on the shroud is a wound on his side, on his right side. That is consistent if the man on the shroud had been pierced between the fifth and sixth rib with the head of a spear or a lance and matches the diameter of spears that have been discovered by archaeology that are. You know, roman, that there's a large quantity of blood on the side, the blood that seems to be shed post-mortem. There's blood on the wrist. There's wounds clearly visible on the wrist and we'll come back to that. There's blood, a lot of blood around the head. But there are over 700 wounds on the man on the shroud. So you have those that are more clearly defined like nails to the wrist nails to the feet would be the speculation a spear in the side. But he, from the neck down on both sides, is covered in wounds and they're little I shouldn't say little, but they're barbell-shaped wounds, if you picture a tiny barbell, and what's fascinating is because if you look at it you go, oh, that's from the scourging.
Speaker 3:But so if a forger was making the shroud 700 years ago and somehow, you know, made this image, and he was like, oh, jesus was scourged. He's looking at the biblical account and trying to copy it on the shroud and he's like, oh, he was scourged. I know I'll use a little barbell piece of metal to make it look like he was whipped with. Well, the Roman phlegm with that specific of uh piece of metal tied to the end wasn't discovered till you know. I mean, archaeology itself is a fairly new discipline. So, like unearthing, the unearthing of a roman phlegrim that's designed with a with the end of it that matches the wounds of the man on the shroud, like it, wasn't found till well later than that. So I mean, there would be. No, they wouldn't have a concept. They'd know that there was a thing called the cat of nine tails or that, what they did scourging, but they didn't have any Roman flagrums to study to try to match it on the shroud with that image, you know, is that make sense?
Speaker 3:yeah and so you know one, it's a that and that, just from that point on, there's so many things that you go what would the, what would the forger have had to have known, uh, to put into this?
Speaker 3:Because it just keeps going deeper and deeper the more that the shroud has been studied, things like that, like where they can match, like, okay, his wounds are consistent with what we know Roman soldiers or professional torturers use at the time, you know, when they were scourging somebody.
Speaker 3:But it is like to pause here and just say I mean, it's overwhelming to look at it. And you know, I've seen the Passion of the Christ and it's brutal, it's brutal, it's brutal and I personally, uh like periodically watch that movie just because it, you know, I feel like it's a personal thing, you know, I think think through what the lord did for us. Uh, you know, but to look at the shroud and to think, okay, this person was whipped, you know, head to toe, essentially, repeatedly, and to the point where he's got this many wounds all over his body, like the amount of pain and the shock that your body would have been in and the trauma he's experiencing like it's, it's unreal over 700 wounds, you said, and uh are a lot of, a lot of the barbell shaped wounds, are, are, are there, and then I guess, lacerations like long stripes.
Speaker 1:You know, I think about uh isaiah saying he was bruised for our transgression, and those metal barbells would have caused great bruising. I always heard it described and I've even taught this, that the, the metal barbells or the metal pieces would create bruising and contusions on on the victim and then the repeated whipping would eventually lacerate and then it would be massive hematomas that would burst. This is just catastrophic blood loss.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's what this is described, that's what we see on it.
Speaker 3:That's what you see. Yep, for sure. Yeah, it's unreal to look at it. And again, some of the imaging now it's so much more clear than even when I first saw it, whatever 20 years ago. There's a lot of. There's multiple, multiple wounds all over the head. You know. It's clear that he's got swelling under one eye, not that his nose isn't broken, right, like we use that terminology. Jesus didn't have any broken bones.
Speaker 3:But it's also technically it wouldn't be a broken bone, right it's a separated uh septum septum, thank you, um, but yeah, and this is where, when I look at it, I go okay, you know what's going on. The guy just have a, you know, rather large nose, well, you know, but somebody, all these people who are dedicated to studying it and they're experts at looking at wounds, they go oh, no, he's, yeah, clearly, his eye swollen, his nose is broken, his lips are split. Um, he's got the middle part of his beard has been ripped out all that shows up in the imprint of the face yeah, when they, when they, when they found that whatever negative, that's apparently really a positive.
Speaker 3:And now the technology we have to make that even more clear. Now they can see that Essentially, they're reading it like an x-ray. They can tell that his right shoulder was heavily bruised. They can tell that his knees were very much wounded, with wounds consistent from falling. Not only that there's blood there, but there's like limestone in his knees. Consistent with Wow, because, again, if this is Jesus and he's carrying the cross that cross being that was maybe 80 pounds, I think, would be the low end to assume and his shoulders being damaged from that, and he's falling repeatedly because of the scourging that he just took and the blood loss and he's falling. What they've recovered from that area would be consistent with rock that he would have been falling on. Things like that, where you're like, okay, so did a forger 700 years ago know that in the future we'd have the capability, with sticky tape, to get things that you can't see with the naked eye off of the shroud to try to place it in in time?
Speaker 1:and where that gravel come from, right.
Speaker 3:And cause. There's more, there's a. Well, I'll stay. I'll stay on the wounds for a minute because the blood itself is fascinating. So it is blood. They've been able to test it. It's human blood. They know that it's human, male blood. It's human male blood. That's type ab, okay. So one of the things and I actually remember thinking this looking at it was when you look at the shroud, just naked eye, the, the blood stains are still red, still as in like.
Speaker 1:Right now they're red and like not brown not brown because I you look at jfk's shirt that's still preserved from his assassination and it looks like brown mud or gravy or sir. It turns brown, blood turns brown yeah, pretty, pretty quickly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, really. I mean, just as it's drying and, um, and I guess, decomposing or but so apparently the only thing that will keep that it is possible for blood to stay red. But in order for it to stay red, it needs to have very high levels of bilirubin in it, which is secreted from your liver. But somebody's liver only secretes high levels of bilirubin if the body is experiencing extreme trauma, and so you go. Okay, well, that's consistent. Again, like, again, like. So now I ask the question if it's a forgery, did somebody torture a male human being with blood type ab in order to get his liver to secrete enough bilirubin to keep the blood red that he was going to put on the shroud? Like, so that?
Speaker 1:is that a likely scenario, so that 700 years later people would know how to study that blood?
Speaker 3:Right. So in order to do that, I think well then, he's a time traveler, you know like Because even that basic, to us most basic technology didn't exist then. Yeah, that's right and so, but it's not done there because they can also, in testing the blood or examining the blood, they can see that it's very, very, very low in oxygen, that the victim, the man on the shroud, was suffocating.
Speaker 1:He was having a hard time breathing well.
Speaker 3:Which we know is consistent with how Roman crucifixion was designed to kill somebody.
Speaker 1:Also, romans did not crucify Roman citizens. So right out of the gate we've got clear evidence that this was probably someone who's crucified by the Romans, because this is Roman crucifixion. All the markings of Roman crucifixion, with the phlegm or the flagellum or whatever, and how, the how the beating occurred, and then the fact that there's a low oxygen level in the blood indicating this person will suffocate all this is roman crucifixion.
Speaker 3:But the romans did not crucify roman citizens, but they would crucify israelis or jewish people yeah, and apparently there's no shortage of shrouds of other people that you know during that time that were crucified, or you know. I guess there is mixed thoughts there, because typically if it really was a criminal, his body, the bodies of crucified people would be Were tossed, were tossed, but there are times when they weren't you know. And whether it was a favor to a rich person, which is christ's story, um, also criminals were crucified and christians you.
Speaker 1:You see, you saw gladiator 2 I haven't yet okay, there's a.
Speaker 1:There's a scene and I'm not endorsing or whatever um, there's a scene in that movie where Denzel Washington's character is speaking to the emperor, trying to tell him don't crucify this person, because this person was a Roman citizen. And he said hey man, crucifixion is for, I think he says for thieves and christians. And it says it and they go on in the scene. Um, and I thought, okay, so thieves are most likely going to be tossed into the landfill, christians, I would imagine there's a higher likelihood that maybe the church is going to take their body and um, that's interesting, that, uh, that there are other shrouds when most thieves, that's more just like an interesting thought to me. Most of those shrouds would belong to Christians, to Christ followers, possibly, potentially.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but then the other set of wounds where this is another part that in this most recent go-around for me personally is studying the shroud that there are a ton of wounds around the head, that bl bleed a lot, um, but there's a bunch of small puncture wounds all over his head. What's interesting, you know and I think anybody's listening, who's a christian, who knows the gospel story you're like, of course, the crown of thorns, but you know, the way the crown is always portrayed is like basically just a headband, like just a you know circle that was put over the head. But the wounds would suggest that the crown of thorns that the soldiers twisted together would have been more like a cap, like that it would have covered the entire scalp, that his head was bleeding from everywhere. And then there's people, again like their area of specialty, that talk about how painful that would have been all over the head and how, especially if it got into the optical nerve.
Speaker 3:But yeah, there's so much blood on the shroud from front and back that you see there, you see there, um, but I'll use that as the segue to the next piece of evidence that is just mind-blowing is there are pollen spores on the shroud that they discovered when they're taking samples. And there's and I I won't be able to recall from the top of my head or even you know I don't want to look through my notes, but but the history of the Shroud, all the different places it stopped along the way, some of which only grow in Israel, some of which grow in Israel and only bloom or blossom in the spring Passover time, and the highest density of pollen spores taken from around the head come from a plant that grows in Jerusalem.
Speaker 1:That has thorns.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, I did not see that coming, and that's the first I've heard that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's crazy Because, you know, go back to our little, you know mocking of the forger story. Like, did he know that? Did he know that we were going to be able to detect? Like, and so he made sure to sprinkle pollen spores or to rub a thorny bush on the?
Speaker 1:yeah, like to make head wounds and then put that you know, you get into like okay, what's more likely?
Speaker 3:now, like clearly there's a place where I think we don't know, we no one was there when the shroud was made, but like what's more likely that it's a forgery or that it's legit you know is where my brain goes and I think how, how would anybody have known that? Like, how would anybody have thought that you know um?
Speaker 1:because the crown the crown being a cap that put puncture holes all in the crown of the head, the sides and back and front and the forehead around the eyes, almost like a beanie or a cap that would have made it that would have been distinct from any other Roman crucifixion victim.
Speaker 1:So you could say well, there's nails, the side, all the lacerations, and a lot of people got crucified. I remember we were doing street interviews that time and the one girl says a lot of people got crucified in that time. I think Jesus was like a lot of people, but a lot of people did not have a crown of thorns pressed onto their head that came from that particular area right, yeah, because even like, if you go well, it doesn't mean it was christ.
Speaker 3:A lot of people are crucified. We don't know how the image got on there, but it's like yes, okay, so some random guy named you know, you know, benny, something, was crucified, and but they also put a crown of thorns on him. Was he claiming to be the Messiah? And something radiant happened while he was laying dead Something yeah, so yeah, the pollen is fascinating to study, the blood is incredible to think about and the wounds are overwhelming.
Speaker 1:And the radiation. Yeah, something, something that created, you said would have been just before he opened his eyes if this is jesus, that there was a burst of something.
Speaker 3:So that's some of the guys. You know that their theory is because they can't themselves reproduce. It is. It's as if some sort of radiant light passed through the body and went out in every direction, so from like within the body and then out of the body, to create that image. And it would have had to, you know, and they've got numbers for it, like you know, but you know, light more intense than the sun, that lasted for just a fraction of a second.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and was powerful enough to leave the imprint without scorching the shroud. And and so okay for the believer, you go, I know a power strong enough to do that, you know, especially if it's intentional, you know. That's where my brain and I start to really get overwhelmed is like I'm looking at all this, thinking like oh, wow, is this real? And then you go well, if it's real, it's not an accident, like God wasn't.
Speaker 3:Like oh, I didn't know that the resurrection was going to leave that imprint, Like if it's real, it's intentional and that's just another layer of like, oh man, something to think about, to meditate on that. God wanted us to have it. If it's real and the there's.
Speaker 1:No. There's also no reason for for there to be possession of this shroud like like and I know there are other shrouds you said that are in people's possession. I would assume those came from bodies that decayed right where this one was not a body that decayed that. That makes it different from all the other shrouds right and so why would they have possession of this? Well, because it was left empty. The stone is rolled back, they go in and they. Why would they not have saved that? They would have they would have.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and and the? You know, the bible makes mention of it, right, that? Uh, I'll read it. And the Bible makes mention of it, right, I'll read it. I mean, we just celebrated the resurrection John 20, 6 and 7.
Speaker 3:Then Simon Peter came, following him and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths plural lying there and the face cloth which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded up in a place by itself. So it's fascinating that the scriptures mention them and I think, you know, probably for a few reasons, it seems like what happens is that they see the linen cloth, specifically the shroud, lying there, as it was, is that they see the linen cloth, specifically the shroud, lying there as it was, and then the head covering lying in a separate place, which we also still have, like that's in a church in Spain. And so what seems like was their practice that when Jesus was taken off the cross, or maybe while he was still up, that that headpiece was put on him, and that headpiece that we still have has human, male blood, with all the same distinctions that we talked about the blood of the shroud.
Speaker 3:It doesn't have the image, because what it seems like is that that was then taken off, so maybe that they put it on his head in transit to the tomb and then the shroud is laid on the the bench inside the tomb. The body's laid in rigor mortis, has started to set in already, so his legs in a position and maybe he's a little bent up from being carried, and then he's uh, but then they would have also taken other cloths. You know, know, until you know rigor mortis lasts somewhere up to four days that his hands would have been bound together, his jaw would have been tied, so his you know mouth wouldn't have been stuck open in rigor mortis, and then, yeah, then folded into the cloth and then that. And then, yeah, then folded into the cloth and then that. But they always they would have kept the head covering, because that was Jewish tradition is that they would get as much of the blood as they could to be buried with the body, and so the head cloth is put in there, the shroud is there, the straps are there.
Speaker 3:That's another thing I didn't mention. I was thinking about it while I was crossing my hands is the wounds on the hand. When you look at the hands on the shroud, you don't see the thumbs. That is, his hands are covering his, like his crotch, and you don't see any thumbs. And it's which is fascinating, because the wound on the man on the shroud is through his wrist, not through the palm, which wouldn't support the weight, but through the wrist. But when the nail is put through the bones in the wrist to be able to support the weight of the body on the cross, it damages the median nerve in your wrist and when that nerve is damaged, the human hand, the thumb, gets pinched down across the palm and these two fingers kind of come in, which is the exact positioning of his hand on the shroud like
Speaker 3:that, yeah, wow, um, again just more. That's like how would anybody 700 years ago even known that, you know, unless they were piercing people to the wrist? But but it just is. Another fascinating thing. Another fascinating level of the shroud is with the idea that the imaging is potentially from some sort of crazy radiation coming out from the body. If you look at that black and white image, you're like okay, what am I seeing on the mouth? Is that like a split lip? What am I looking at? You can actually see some teeth. If you look at the hands, you're like am I seeing like bones? And so it seemed to have some sort of x-ray type nature to it and one of the things that a guy, one of the experts, said in studying at the scientist. He said the look of the teeth is as if they're being x-rayed from inside.
Speaker 3:Like not like x-ray when you go and get it and they put the thing in your mouth and whatever, and you're like that's what I'm going to look like whenever I'm dead, but it looks like it's being taken from the inside, like it's you're seeing the back of the T. It's just wild stuff where you're like and it's so layered and like, okay, well, how did that get there? You know, for the believer, if this is the shroud, I mean we keep saying it because I think there's something could come out and that answers all these questions, you know, and like that's possible, it's within the realm of possibility. I don't think so. I think, man, there's. I feel again, I come back to, I think through these things, listen, try to put my bias aside as much as I'm capable of, and I go the one piece of evidence against. It seems to be garbage, all these crazy details that just seem like they line up. I just think I'm looking at the face of Christ, you know.
Speaker 1:So the x-ray, it's like that burst of whatever. Then boom from the inside out. Put that picture on that cloth.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's crazy, because the image on the shroud is only, it's very superficial, so the blood is soaked through and the imaging is very superficial, like it's not very deep, it's not through the fibers, it doesn't like you know, and so which also? I wouldn't have thought of this at all, but but one guy said well, that means that the image had to be made after the blood had already soaked through, so the blood you know, she had a couple nights to do that.
Speaker 3:Right, like the blood is soaked through and then boom, that image is made and it's just faint. Yeah, there's a lot, there's so much more. I mean, like you said, you can definitely spend a lot of time studying and listening resurrection. And he, he was talking about the shroud. I actually took a class for him and wrote a paper on the shroud when I was in uh, that's actually when I was in seminary and um, there's guys, this guy, uh, gosh, let me look at his name.
Speaker 1:That dude, lee Strobel, the case for Christ guy. You know he he's talking about the shroud a little bit, I just recently saw that, but uh, that guy's considered, you know, very reputable apologist. Yeah, and when he his conversion story habermas, when he interviewed habermas, that was a big piece that's a big part of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, at his conversion.
Speaker 1:He, he went, I think it's before habermas was at liberty. I think maybe he was at wheaton or moody, something like that, because struggle was in chicago, and I think it's before habermas was at liberty.
Speaker 1:I think maybe he was at wheaton or moody, something like that, because struggle was in chicago and I think habermas might have been local, maybe not. Maybe he came to lynchburg because that's this was in the 70s, so liberty was very small then. But um, anyway, he in case for christ, he's like this. When I, when I went and met with this guy like it, it spun me around, you know that's awesome yeah I came across this other guy and his name's jeremiah johnston.
Speaker 3:I'd never heard of him before but he he's written a book called body of proof. And again he's another one who's his scholarship is in the resurrection, and he was interesting to listen to because he started out as a skeptic of the shroud. He was like he said to himself, like I deal with evidence, and he was interested to listen to one because he's not only to become convinced, he's like I mean, he's out there, he tours, does tours, talking about the shroud, like he's, and he, yeah, he's a historian.
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