No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
What Makes a Healthy Church?
Brody kicks off this episode by celebrating the 250th episode of No Sanity Required and reflecting on the growth of the podcast. He expresses gratitude for the support and listeners who’ve been part of the journey.
In this episode, Brody answers questions from Blake, a former SWO staffer and avid NSR listener, about church leadership. Sparked by a recent episode, Blake asks about some pastoral models within the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) and how they compare to biblical principles of church structure. Brody discusses the importance of pastors staying long-term at a church and why leadership should focus on a team of elders, not just one "CEO" pastor. He also shares wisdom from 1 Timothy 5 on how churches should support, protect, and care for their leaders.
Brody wraps up with exciting updates on new cabins and projects at Snowbird. Tune in for an insightful conversation about church leadership, pastoral integrity, and how we can build healthier churches.
1 Timothy 5:17-25
Faithful Leadership in the Midst of Failure NSR Episode
SWO1 Fund
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Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.
Welcome to this week's episode of no Sanity Required. We're getting it out a little late midweek, that's okay. I'm still recovering from Thanksgiving. Lots of food, zero exercise, lots of laying around. I definitely made the most of my Thanksgiving and I hope you did too. So grateful to be able to spend time with family and people that I love and that means so much to me. And then getting back into work this week just a little bit behind on getting an episode out, so I apologize for that. But thanks for tuning in and listening.
Speaker 1:Let me give you a quick preview of what's coming today. We're going to do some Q&A, we're going to tackle some questions that we got after the November 19th episode and we are celebrating NSR episode 250. We just celebrated our 250th episode. Big deal around here, we're all excited, and so we're going to talk a little bit about that and what we have planned and what's in store, what's next for NSR and for SWO and all of the acrostics that mean the most to me, all of the three letter agencies in my world, and uh, and so I'm excited to get into today's content. I'm going to answer three or four questions, uh, some Q and a, and that's always fun. It helps kind of keep, keep things spiced up a little bit and uh, and then I'll I'll give you an update on some exciting things that are happening at swo and a couple of other very important things worth celebrating, and it's just going to be kind of a hodgepodge episode and I'm excited for bringing you this content.
Speaker 2:So thanks for joining us again welcome to no sanity required from the ministry of snowbird wilderness outfitters. A podcast about the bible culture and stories from around the globe well, we recently celebrated our 250th episode, it's so.
Speaker 1:It was such a nice. Uh, it was so great. Uh, jb, she texted me I was leaving town. I don't remember now I was leaving town, I had to. Oh, I know it was when I was traveling out to to north kona state to speak out there and that morning we were supposed to meet up to go over a couple things um podcast related. And then she wasn't at the 8 o'clock meeting at SWO and we meet Tuesday, wednesday, thursday mornings. We meet as a team. Except for this week I'm not doing those meetings because it's the opening week of rifle season and it's super cold here and I'm trying to kill a big buck. But anyway, we meet.
Speaker 1:And so she wasn't at the meeting and she had told me she needed to talk to me. I texted her and said hey, I got to get on the road. I just just holler at me. Later we can talk by phone. We're on catch up. Will you want to get back? If it's urgent, just call me. And she called right then and said hey, don't have you left. And I said no, and she said we need you to swing by the office. So I swung by the media office. I went in and our entire media team was in there with a cookie cake and a bunch of balloons and almost like a surprise birthday party feel, um, to announce that we had just posted our 250th episode. So that was so cool.
Speaker 1:I love our. I love being surrounded by young people. Um, you know it just, I mean, I a lot of my day is spent around people in their early twenties and it's just revitalizing every day is just uh, it just creates a lot of energy. And so, anyway, love JB and Issa and that team in there is just phenomenal. Chris is crushing it. I'm so thankful he's here. Sam's doing a good job. Just love our media team, austin Scott heading that team up, doing a phenomenal job. Austin Scott is, if you're not familiar with the SWO structure and you haven't been to SWO or you haven't been in a long time Austin oversees all things media and so, um, just love our team.
Speaker 1:So we celebrated at 8 15 in the morning. People were eating cookie cake, or you know what I'm talking about those chocolate chip, those big cookies like, uh, with the with the whip or not whipped cream, but like the cake icing all over it. I passed because I was getting on the road I was like I cannot go in a sugar coma before I drive six hours. But anyway, just excited, thankful, thank you all for making this such a successful endeavor. We felt like God was calling us to enter into this realm and we just tried to be faithful. That's all we'll ever try to do is be faithful and let the mission of SWO and the mission statement of SWO guide us.
Speaker 1:So here we are, four years in and this thing's just blowing almost five years in. Yeah, we're coming up. It'll be five years first, of 2025. We started in the early part of 2020. So hard to believe. Of 2025. We started in the early part of 2020. So hard to believe. Um, we're now, uh, seeing just volume and growth Like I never imagined. So pretty awesome.
Speaker 1:Uh, one of the things I want to do we you know this is a pretty stripped down, bare bones format for our podcast. Um, nowadays it really is true that almost every everywhere you turn, somebody's you know putting out a podcast. There's so many of them and so many people just kind of come up with an idea and start a podcast from their own home, from their home office or their kitchen table or whatever, and a lot of guys find a niche and they're able to make a run of it. A lot of folks that I've talked to who are interested in starting a podcast. One of the things I always tell them is you've got to have enough content that this thing doesn't die on the runway. I mean, you can fire it up and it's not hard to put out a handful of episodes. You can fire the thing up, get a few episodes out. You could even, you know, just a single person monologue type episode. It wouldn't be hard to put out a few episodes. Uh, if you're going to do an interview format, it wouldn't be hard to line up eight or 10 interesting people to interview.
Speaker 1:But if you're going to build a podcast for longevity, my, you know, what I say to folks is get a long-term plan and then understand the why. Why are you doing this? Are you doing it just because you want to be, you know, current with the times? Because everybody's doing podcasts? I can tell you that is not why I do this. I'll tell you why I do this.
Speaker 1:The reason I do this first is because the Lord we really feel like the Lord put this before us and said hey, here's a way that you can take the mission of SWO and engage um culture and people within the culture and the church within the culture and the people within the church within the culture. And so we we've got a good why um? But NSR is not, um is not the main thing and it's not the main thing at SWO and it's not the main thing in my life, but it is something that we're very passionate about and we feel like the Lord's given us a platform and so our, the mission statement of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters is that Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters exists to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. So there's the first thing. I'm going to walk through the mission statement here real quick. And all of this is coming not from a question I said we're going to do Q and a, but from some conversation with folks that were interested in starting their own podcast. And then a comment I heard a guy make uh, I've heard a couple of people make. This is kind of a sarcastic joke of everybody's got a podcast, um, and, and that's true, and I was not offended. But I heard a guy say that recently at an event and he didn't know me, didn't know that I was part of a podcast, but he was, he was making a true statement, but he's kind of poking fun. Everybody's got a podcast and so out of that conversation, uh, out of that, uh, those comments and the conversation I've had with people that are interested in starting podcasts, um, that that's why this is kind of the first Q and a um topic for this episode. But the why for us is we exist to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ and so the podcast NSR podcast is another platform or tool that we can use. It's a microphone into people's lives to proclaim the gospel of Jesus. So the mission statement goes snowboard outfitters exist to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ through the exposition of scripture, and you'll notice that we unpack passages of scripture on this podcast. Oftentimes that is all that an episode is.
Speaker 1:We have two main lines of of Bible teaching on the podcast. One is called tailgate theology, the other is called beyond the flannel graph, and those two categories, beyond the flannel graph, is where we take narratives, main stories with ideas that we've grown up with those of us that grew up in the church, and we look a little deeper and we go a little further than maybe what we've ever gone before with those stories, those childhood stories on before, with those stories, those childhood stories, and then tailgate theology is where we take theological ideas, doctrinal issues, and we try to break those down in a way that laymen and laywomen can understand them, folks that have not been to seminary or are not real academically and don't just love doctrine, they love Jesus, but they're not sure really how to approach growing in their knowledge and understanding of doctrine and the authority of scripture and inspiration of scripture and sufficiency of scripture, and so tailgate theology so that that fits into the mission statement. So snowbird wilderness outfitters exist to proclaim the gospel of Jesusesus christ. We do that through the exposition of scripture. We do that um and personal relationships. And so we we are often told that this podcast feels very relational. In fact, that last episode where I was in a deer stand, as so many people say to me that they really enjoyed that, the tone and the feel of that, um, that that it just felt so, so casual, comfortable, just like hey, we're sitting, you know, we're leaning over the bedrail of a truck or we're driving down the road just having a conversation.
Speaker 1:There is a relational component to everything we do at SWO and I'd say there's a relational component to this podcast, which is why we don't polish it up. There's not a lot of, we don't put a lot of effort into, um, music and dynamic, you know, commercials and and a lot of background stuff. It's just kind of turn the mic on and we start talking, and so, um, we want it to be very relational, uh, in order to equip the church in this generation. And so, um, that last component to our mission statement is that we would equip the church, and so this podcast exists to to help folks that are Christ followers in the church of Jesus Christ, to build on a deeper knowledge and understanding of God's word, but then also to practically engage culture and to cultivate healthy and godly relationships, and so to understand what is our mission and what is our purpose and what does God expect out of us as Christians. And so that's the why of NSR. It helps us meet.
Speaker 1:The mission of SWO. Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters exists to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ through the exposition of Scripture and personal relationships, in order to equip the church in this generation. God has given us a platform, a mission, a vision, and we want to be faithful with that platform, a mission, a vision, and we want to be faithful with that, um, so with that, which just want to say thanks and help us celebrate 250 episodes, um, by sharing this episode with your friends, or sharing the podcast in general with your friends, and like it, comment on it, push it around the social media world. Um, go on the Apple or iTunes, uh, spotify, rather, um, and, you know, do do the thing where you, where you give it five stars and you leave us a review on there, where you talk about what the podcast means to you or why you would you know, why you'd want somebody else to listen to it. Um, it'd be helpful. So, help us celebrate, and you already have helped us just by being here and making this thing a success.
Speaker 1:If we would have, you know, I don't know if we would have launched this and only a hundred people would have been listening, I don't know that we would have continued to put the energy into it, not that a hundred people is not enough to matter, but we would maybe look at how we might use the resources differently, because a lot of time and energy and effort goes into doing it each week and, um, I don't want to make it out to be something that it's not, but we it's, it's a small team, it's really just me and jb that work on it, and, uh, she's got other responsibilities at swo.
Speaker 1:Uh, she, she edits and manages most of our teaching podcast as well, and then I've got a ton of other responsibilities, and so we usually touch base once or twice a week and just a brief touch base in the media office, and then we go our separate ways and do everything else that we got going on, and so I don't know that we would keep doing it if it wasn't for the incredible support and feedback we've gotten support and and uh, feedback we've gotten. Um gosh, it's just amazing to think that that we're getting the tens of thousands of downloads that we're getting.
Speaker 1:So thank y'all. All right, the next thing. Uh, I want to address a question that came in from blake. Blake asked this and she's a faithful listener to nsr and uh, she said this brody, listen to the latest NSR today and this is from the November 19th episode. This came in on November 20th.
Speaker 1:Listen to your latest NSR today and it made me wonder if maybe one episode you could share more thoughts on ecclesiology from scripture compared to the traditional SBC church setup. So what she's asking in the first part of this is that November 19th episode where we talked about pastors and churches and I used the term ecclesiology, which, if that's not a familiar word to you, so ecclesia is a word in scripture in the original languages that referred to the community, the body of Christ within the local church. That's one facet of that. So ecclesiology is the study of, or the practice and study of, the local church. Share some thoughts on that from scripture. What does the scripture teach about the function of the local church compared to the traditional SPC church set up? Spc is Southern Baptist, so SPC stands for Southern Baptist Convention and I know not all of our listeners are part of that denomination, but a lot are.
Speaker 1:Personally, I think the popular set up of one senior pastor whom all the other pastors on staff answer to, creates a lot of room for moral failure and I would agree with that. So like saying, when you've got a model where one senior pastor is the boss pastor and then everyone else sort of um submits to him, it creates a lot of opportunity for moral failure and I would agree with that, the primary categories being power, abuse of power, sexual or or relational infidelity. So it could be that he has a, an extramarital affair. It could be, and we, we, we talked about that, you know. It could be that he has an emotional affair or whatever. Just it creates a lack of accountability. Maybe is another way to look at that. And then the third way that there tends to be failure is so power infidelity. And then I think financial Guys either become dishonest or they capitalize or profit that's the word I was looking for financially in a way that maybe is not above. Approach is lacking integrity.
Speaker 1:It seems like those churches are run more like businesses with one CEO and less like a plurality of leadership. Again, that word plurality is the word that we use to describe a team of pastors that lead together. So you might have a senior or lead pastor, but he doesn't have more authority or power. It's a team of folks leading, a team of men that are leading that church together. Also, I was wondering if you had any thoughts on kind of the church hopping culture in the SBC, where it's really uncommon for pastors to stay anywhere more than five years. It seemed like that also creates room for moral failure. Thanks for the podcast. It's been great that last part of the question pastors bouncing around, um and just um, not staying put in one place for more than just a few years, and I think there is a more than just a few years and I think there is a. I see that a lot and I don't want to. I don't want to be critical. Um, I think maybe sometimes a pastor needs to move on. It's not a good fit, but I do think it would be that the churches that seem to be the strongest are the ones where pastors stay a long time. Um, and I don't know what a long time would be defined by day, a long time, um, and I don't know what a long time would be defined by, but I heard an older pastor one time. He was retiring. He was in his late seventies and he had they had trained and prepared his successor Um, no, I'm sorry, predecessor, yeah, successor, he was the predecessor and he told that young man and the young man was in his thirties, but he said he said, marry yourself to this church and the point he's making is commit to it for life, and that that man had served faithfully at that church for like 40 something years. Listen, this is crazy. The pastor before him had served at that church for 40 something years. So the the new guy's been there like 10 years now this was about 10 years ago. So for for like starting in like 2000 safe, say, 2015 from 2015 you had to go all the way back to like 2000, I mean 1946 or something like that. So from like 1946 to 2016, there had only had two pastors at that church. Isn't that crazy? But awesome, really cool.
Speaker 1:And I attended that church and went there and you could feel it, man. It felt like a big family and that pastor wasn't a dictator. He had elders that were strong men, deacons that were strong men, a strong team of leaders around him, and so let me elaborate on that just a little bit. So anyway, sorry, I just had to step away, I got sidetracked, um, but but that I use that church as an example just to say it was healthy, it was strong.
Speaker 1:But I also know there's there's there's a time where there there are situations where I think after five years it's time for a guy to move on, or I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't want to be critical, I don't want to be critical without substance and I don't want to be critical in an unbiblical way.
Speaker 1:So I would just say, to that part of Blake's question I would say I think the ideal and healthiest model would be that a pastor and a team of pastors and elders, um are are in one place for a long time, for a long time, and I don't mean five years five years could be a long time depending on how you look at it but I mean for a long time, and I can say from my own experience the strength of here we've got, uh, at red Oak church, you know we're we're over a decade old now, and five of the elders. We have seven elders and five of those elders have been together for that entirety. And then we've had two more come into the. You know our lead pastor, joseph Tucker. He's been with us for three years now, but there's, I do get you know, I do get frustrated with how quick guys jump ship, especially especially when they're looking to go to a bigger church or bigger congregation, like kind of what college football coaches do or something like that.
Speaker 1:But anyway so I don't want to be critical for no reason, but I think ideally you build a team and you stick together and you work together. So I want to go through. This is from 1 Timothy 5. I want to give you some thoughts from 1 Timothy 5. And I hope this will be helpful. I'll be reading from 1 Timothy 5. Also, let me say, while I'm turning over here, that in 2 Peter 2, say, while I'm turning over here, that in second Peter, chapter two, um, paul addresses that, I'm sorry, paul, uh, peter addresses. In second Peter, chapter two. It's the first five verses.
Speaker 1:He addresses false teachers, and so he says but false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the master who brought them, bringing upon himself swift destruction, and many will follow their sensuality and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed and in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle and their destruction is not asleep. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until judgment, if he did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until judgment. If he did not spare the ancient world but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly. If, by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes, he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what's going to happen to the ungodly and rescued righteous Lot, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. So, anyway, he keeps going. But there's a warning for false prophets and false teachers he goes into. He's like, they're like irrational animals, creatures of instinct. He uses these strong, strong analogies, he said. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. So there's some strong words for false teachers.
Speaker 1:So, first and foremost, uh, I want to go back to something we talked about in that November 19 episode, which is the the one of the things that that we have to make sure we're protecting, for pastors and teachers is the platform for them to preach and teach a hot and fiery gospel, the faithful exposition of scripture. Your pastor may not be the most relational guy and you. He may not ask you to play golf, go play golf. He may not, um, ask you over to his house for supper. He may be a a socially awkward guy. He I don't probably not Like. When you look at the qualifications, most pastors are going to be pretty solid relationally, but some are not. Some struggle with that. The bottom line is, if he's faithful to preach and teach the word of God with fidelity and strength and authority that doesn't come from him but that comes from the scripture then he's doing his job, job and I would rather have that than the most personable guy who's friendly and inviting and has folks come into his home and, you know, is super engaged socially but doesn't teach faithful exposition. Now you got a problem.
Speaker 1:I'm thankful for Joseph Tucker, our pastor, because our lead guy, because he he does both of those. He's faithful when he preaches but then he also doesn't overload himself. He's he's very selfless. There's no ego. I mean, literally the least egotistical pastor couldn't ask for for better he. I get the opportunity to preach the first Sunday of every month and then another Sunday of each month someone else preaches. Joseph usually only preaches two Sundays a month and he's just so um faithful when he does preach, but then he's also. He doesn't waste an opportunity to disciple and invest in folks in the congregation. He's always real intentional with investing in young dudes and there's always a small group of guys that he's investing in. I'm just thankful for that.
Speaker 1:But I'm saying all that to say. The main thing is, a dude needs to preach the word of God and preach it with conviction and clarity and application. So that's the first thing. So, as far as, is it a CEO model? Is it a plurality of leaders? Do we have multiple elders? Do we have what is? How is the church structured? Well, first question I want to ask is is the word of god taught faithfully? That's critical.
Speaker 1:Now, first, timothy 5 is what I said we were going to read and that is what we're going to read. First timothy 5, I'm going to read in verse 17, and I'm going to go to verse 25, which is the end of that chapter. So this is 1 Timothy 5, so just following up November 19. We're following that up right here. Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. The Scripture says you shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain, and the laborer deserves his wages. Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. Okay, I wanted to bring this up because this is where, back to Blake's question when you've got a CEO model, a lot of times a pastor is unapproachable and unconfrontable, and so it's like things will go unconfronted or all of a sudden there'll be just an explosion of confrontation that'll split or divide a church. So this is going to address that as we walk through this.
Speaker 1:As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels. I charge you to keep these rules, without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality. Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. The sins of some people are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later. So also, good works are conspicuous and even those that are not cannot remain hidden. Even those that are not cannot remain hidden. So this is a little bit of tailgate theology here, considering the health of a church really dependent on plurality of leadership, not just one C, what what Blake called the CEO model, where you've got one guy in power, and also not the model where you've got a strong, a stronghold from a small group of men that control the whole church Men or women, or men and women. I've seen this a lot where you've got a small group of people that control the church and the pastor scared to lead and he won't stand up to them.
Speaker 1:Let me give you some examples. I've seen in recent years A guy named Sean who was serving at a church. This was in South Carolina. This was a few years ago. I just jotted down some notes from some guys that I can remember counseling through the years. Sometimes it wasn't counsel, it was just them needing an outside ear. Sean was working under a guy where the pastor was the chief, he was the boss. Everything he said went, he controlled everything. You did not fart without his permission in that church. I mean, he was a dictator. He was a very dictatorial pastor and I never did talk to him and get his side of things. But this guy, sean, I spent enough time with him through the years, him bringing students to camp, I trust him and he's a good brother. And so that pastor was a dictator. There's the dictator pastor.
Speaker 1:Next was a guy named Tim, and Tim was from. Where was Tim? I cannot remember, I don't want to read his last name, um, but anyway, he was at a church where, um, you had a group of deacons that were they didn't have elders. They had a pastor and a group of deacons. There was no team of pastors, elders, that led the church, and those deacons had no backbone and they were lazy. And so you had this one small group of of women that were controlling the church and nobody would stand up to them. As a one older lady that I think when I say older lady, she, she, she was, you know, she'd been in the church most of her life and and, and her husband and her had had, you know, like we're second generation in that church. This was a smaller church and so nobody would stand up to them. And then a guy named James. Who James was. I think James was from Texas and he was in a church that was run by a strong but small alliance of laymen. It was like a couple of men and their wives and then a couple of other people they had pulled in. It was a small group of people that controlled the church and they were in an alliance and nothing could get accomplished without their approval.
Speaker 1:And then, man, I went to church with a friend of mine one time, a guy named Steve, and he was not a pastor. I went to church with a friend of mine one time, a guy named steve, and he was not a pastor. He's we, but I attended church with him. I was, we were in the area. This was years ago, it's probably 15 years ago and uh, I said, we stopped off, we were traveling and we stopped to see him on a saturday and we were going to spend the night with with, uh, his family, my family it was my family and his family and he said, um, he said, man, I really want you to give me your thoughts on this new church that we've just been attending. We're thinking about joining, but uh, and I could tell he was hesitant. Anyway, we get to his church and the pastor was one of the most effeminate people I've ever seen. He was dressed very effeminately, he spoke very effeminately, um, he cried a lot and showed pictures of puppies, um, and talked about his dog, his little doggy. Um, it was just weird. It was like it was really weird, it was a weird vibe and so, um, uh, I pressed my buddy, steve, my friend Steve, my buddy, this guy, a friend of mine, um, I pressed him. I'm like what you know, what is it that's drawing you, this church? And pretty soon it was like no, we're not going to go to church here. So they ended up moving on.
Speaker 1:Um, then, then there's a guy, there's a guy in a church not far from here who is known to have practiced infidelity and to have had an extramarital affair maybe 10 years ago. So he was pastoring a church, it was booming, it was growing. He had an affair. Everybody knew it. I mean, it was very public knowledge. He never repented. He was confronted, never repented, and then just kind of quietly left the church and the church didn't want to create more drama. So they did not, they did not publicly address his sin, and I and I had some strong inside information, because the pastor who succeeded him is a good friend of mine, and then there were several people that eventually ended up at our church that came from that church, because that church kind of fell apart, then got put back together and has a good pastor and some strong leadership now.
Speaker 1:But, like I said, this was 10, maybe a little more than 10 years ago, this might have been 12, 14 years ago, and that pastor was having an extramarital affair or an inappropriate relationship with a young, 24, 25 year old young gal and he was probably 34, 35 at the time. And, um, and he, when he left the church, he just kind of laid low for a year and then he, quote unquote, planted a church literally eight minutes away and pretty soon he grew that church and now he's, you know, every sunday that church has got twice as many people as the church he left because a bunch of people left and basically he just pulled people from his old church and it's just sloppy and ugly and nasty and then, um, so there's that situation. I'm giving you different situations where I've seen the importance of why we need biblical leadership in the church. So let me just buzz through some thoughts here real quick and then I'm going to answer maybe one or two more questions, but I don't know, we'll see. We're already well over half an hour into this, so let's see how quick we get through this and cause. I definitely want to make some announcements and give you some updates on some things happening here. So why is it so important that we have a plurality of leaders?
Speaker 1:People freak out man around here in the mountains of North Carolina when you say we got elders, we you need elders at your church, or talking to a pastor friend and they were getting ready to transition to, um, a team of elders and they were getting a lot of pushback because people were like acting like that's something cultish or whatever. It was biblical. You know, and I think maybe it's because the what's the formal name for the Mormons, the Latter-day Saints, the Latter-day Saints, you know they use that word elder a lot. I mean they use it a lot Like they'll refer to their leadership as elders because a lot of what they do is taken from Scripture. You know, part of what makes a cult dangerous is they take a little bit of truth or a whole lot of truth and mingle in a little bit of falsehood. And that's what happens in the Mormon church, like in their doctrine. And so I think a lot of people they associate the term elders with some non Christian cultish religions, christian cultish religions, and the reality is it's it's a biblical term. You know it's like. This is in the scripture. We just read it First Timothy, chapter five or 17,. Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor. So why a plurality of leaders, of elders?
Speaker 1:I grew up, like most people probably, in a church where the pastor was basically the single lone elder and then you had a board of deacons but they sort of functioned like elders. The one function of elders an elder, by the way, elder, pastor, overseer, those are interactive words the one thing an elder or a pastor is to do that deacons don't do is to be able to teach, to faithfully teach the scripture. She had these deacons that would kind of operate as leadership, but not really. It just wasn't a good or biblical way for the church to be led. And so in that type of church there's at some point going to be a conflict in leadership, but then there's no dependable way to resolve it. Let me say it again In a church where you don't have a team of elders, a team of pastors that are equal in their voice. If you don't have that and you have a CEO model where you've got a power structure with one guy that rules and reigns, or you've got a guy that is the lead elder but no one else will really have any say-so, the guy kind of dictates um. Or if you've got a church where there's a weird balance between the pastor and the deacons, sooner or later you're going to have conflict and but there's no way to resolve it. There's not a dependable way to resolve it. Our, our.
Speaker 1:I've only been through one um. I went through, uh, two church splits. Before I was a pastor, elder um, and they were ugly and I was just a layman going to these churches. And then, after I became a, an elder at red oak church, when we planted that church, we went through a difficult situation that would have caused churches to split, but it did not split because we had strong um leadership in place and we're able to get through it and we only ended up. I think we lost two or three families, three families from that, but in turn the church grew by double over the next just few months. And so what? What I saw in that is, when you've got healthy leadership, it purges the church and then creates and promotes growth.
Speaker 1:So verses 17 and 18, let the elders who rule be considered worthy of double honor. And then he kind of unpacks what that means. And so the idea is that we honor, protect, rebuke, select. You know, the elders are to be protected, they're to be honored, they're to be rebuked when needed. They're to be um, um, like if there's something that they do that's out of line, they need to be confronted. Those are all to be done publicly, by the way, and so church members can honor the Lord and their church. I think by showing honor to the elders, so like and I don't mean obeying the elders, or you know, hear what I'm saying when, when we follow the teaching of first timothy, 5, verse 17, we're showing them honor those who labor in the preaching and teaching ministry of the church. Um, and I think so I want to give. So what? So what does that look like? Let me, let me just give a thought on what that looks like. Three things Be a teachable person when you come to church on Sunday. Don't show up just to be critical. Show up to learn, show up to hear from the Word of God and pray for that brother that's going to be preaching and teaching and encourage him. The second thing you can pray for your leaders. Pray for your leaders and be submissive to them in a in to a degree, be submissive to them. And the thing about this type of submission is it's willful submission. You're not, you're not giving them the keys to your life. You're you're surrendering certain aspects of your spiritual formation and development to them, because that's the way the church is to function 're to edify, we're to build up, we're to strengthen, and so we need leadership within that. And then the third thing he says is to pay him. Take care of now, be clear we pay. We have two of our seven elders that get paid, um, one full-time and one not even full-time, uh, and so not all elders are going to be paid, but saying, uh, when we, when we look at what paul's writing to timothy, he's saying that the vocation, what we would call full time, vocational pastors and elders need to be paid, and they need to be paid a fair wage, especially and I think a way to do that is what is a fair wage for where society is. They should be able to make a living, buy a house, drive a decent vehicle, put their kids, you know, in Christian school, if they would need to, or or whatever you know, like just that they're not having to work two other jobs, um, and be by vocational. There's, there's a season for that, there may be a time for that, but the goal is that that guy will be able to go to a point where he's full time. Um. Second thing is protect them. Um, there's a right way to bring an accusation or a charge against an elder, but I'm going to tell you something a pastor is very vulnerable to false accusation, the like. I don't know that there's a position where a person would be more susceptible to false accusation and it can be super loose. It's like, well, that pastor, he abuses his power. What does that?
Speaker 2:mean.
Speaker 1:You could be talking to people at the grocery store that don't go to your church and you can get them to think something that's completely untrue about a guy. And so in verse 22, he says do not be hasty in the laying on of hands. That means, when you appoint an elder, don't be hasty to do that. Take your time and make sure this is the right man, that God's calling to this. Because in verse 20, he says as for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. And so he's laid out for us how, when a pastor is out of line, what does it look like to confront him? So back to Blake's question what about the CEO model, where you've got a guy that's in a power structure where he can't really be approached? Well, 1 Timothy 5, verse 19 says do not bring a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. Macarthur says this.
Speaker 1:Now, the intent of two or three witnesses is simply confirmation. It goes all the way back to Deuteronomy 19, 15, where no accusation against a person is to be upheld apart from two or three confirming, credible witnesses. Matthew, chapter 18, you remember when we have an outline of how to discipline a fellow Christian against a person is to be upheld apart from two or three confirming credible witnesses. Matthew, chapter 18, you remember, when we have an outline of how to discipline a fellow Christian, If you find one in sin, you go to him. If he doesn't hear and repent, then you take two or three witnesses in order that they might confirm that sin and confirm either his repentant or failure to repent to be repentant attitude. So two or three witnesses involved in an accusation create a situation. That is an old approach that goes back to the Old Testament. It's simply the confirmation of viable witnesses.
Speaker 1:So we are never to receive any accusation against a pastor where we're not even to entertain it or investigate it or look into it. We're to shun it, to shut it off, to end it unless it has been confirmed by two or three significant and credible witnesses. So I appreciate MacArthur's words there. You need, if we're going to make an accusation against a pastor, there needs to be witnesses who are credible and there needs to be multiple witnesses with significant evidence and testimony or witness that syncs up, that aligns and is consistent. We need to be careful in making accusation against God's appointed leaders. I always think about that story where the dude David killed a guy because the guy took Saul's life, even though King Saul told him to. We got to be very fearful of how we approach the man of God, but then we do need to do it with conviction, because there may be a time and place for it.
Speaker 1:But it needs to be handled biblically, not just get a bunch of people and gossip and backbite and create a busybody sort of atmosphere where everybody's just talking bad about the pastor. Has he sinned? Has he disqualified himself? Then here's how you rebuke him publicly and corporately and together. Again. Uh, verse 20 says as for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. So what would that sin be? It would be like not doing what we talked about.
Speaker 1:The qualifications of an elder are he doesn't exercise self-control or um, you could say, uh, he's not faithful to his wife, um, he's not moderate in the way he lives his life, so he abuses alcohol or money or food. He doesn't exercise self-control, he doesn't. He's not good in his life, so he abuses alcohol or money or food. He doesn't exercise self-control. He doesn't. He's not good in his behavior, he's not committed to the love of strangers, he drinks too much. He's impatient, he's argumentative, he's a fighter, he's combative, he's covetousness. He doesn't handle his home Well. His, his children are unruly and out of control. Like there's things that you need to rebuke or confront a guy over. Um, but we need to be, we need to be careful.
Speaker 1:So I'm bringing all this up Y'all. I've written way too much here and I'm not going to go into all of this. I just I'm. I'm at this point, 40 something minutes into this, so let me let me wrap this up. I've got gosh. I've still got four pages of notes, so let me wrap this up.
Speaker 1:Here's what I'm getting at with Blake's question. We need churches to be healthy enough that everyone in leadership and in the church who aren't in leadership are held in accountability to one another, and the scripture gives us a picture of that. And so, to answer Blake's question, a CEO model where guys bounce around, I think it's hard to keep that healthy and integrity within the church, where folks encourage one another, where there may need to be rebuke, where they're like I think about that guy that was unfaithful in the church. Just let him go away. He needed to be rebuked publicly. Now he's down the road with his own church. That just pulled a bunch of people away from the church. He left and it's like man that wasn't handled biblically. He needed to be confronted over his adultery. You know that's the way it's got to work Now. It doesn't mean that you drag every private sin. A pastor's not perfect. That guy makes a mistake, we don't air out his laundry. You know, it's like there's a fine line where we need accountability, and so what?
Speaker 1:The heart and spirit of 1 Timothy 5 is instruction on how to keep pastors, leaders, elders, accountable to the Lord and to one another and to the church, and to keep them men of integrity. So anyway, I think the last thing in that text is there needs to be some common sense to it. I will finish with this one thought there needs to be some common sense to it. I will finish with this one thought there needs to be some common sense to it. If you examine these men, their reputation one way or another is going to precede them. So when you're appointing a pastor and elder, a close examination is necessary. Paul gives instruction for that, because I think a close examination would expose them on the front end. I think that's why it's dangerous.
Speaker 1:You see, a lot of danger when there's a really young guy that starts a church and then he kind of grows with that church and he has no background before the church. I think that's what's happened with Furtick at Elevation. I don't know that that guy's been unfaithful. I would never make that kind of an accusation. I believe he's been faithful to his wife, at least. If he hasn't, it's never been made public. I don't know that there's been. I don't. I don't know that there's been anything that he's done that would be like worthy of of removal. I don't know, I've never paid attention. I just hear people talk about that guy a lot. But what I did was I looked into, okay, what is this guy's background, and I found out, oh, he started super young and built sort of this empire, and so I think it creates.
Speaker 1:It makes me appreciate why Paul says that a pastor, elder, overseer doesn't need to be a new believer, young in the faith. He needs to have some, he needs to be seasoned and mature. But listen, this is important. I think that also gives us some background credibility. What's the trajectory of his life been like? That's where I think being a youth pastor during your twenties can be really helpful. You're still able to engage students, um, you're young enough that you can connect with them on a on a really personal level, but then also you're learning how to lead and you're building some integrity as a leader.
Speaker 1:And so, anyway, I'm going to. I'm going to stop there, cause. I'm just I could, I could go and go and go with this Um so that that there hopefully that answers Blake's question. I'm going to stop. I'm not going to do any more questions today I had three questions. I was going to do any more questions today. I had three questions I was going to answer. We'll come back to the others because I wanted to tell y'all a last thing and I've, I've, I've got to wrap this up Um.
Speaker 1:We are in the process of building six new cabins at SWO Um, and that's going to enable us to house about five to 600 students in the summer and so, praise the Lord for that. It's a huge deal. Just wanted to say thank you to those that have helped contribute to that. A lot of people give to something at SWO we call it the SWO One Fund and it's where people can give financial support and knowing that that's going to go to the physical development of the facility. So it's not just going to go to keep the lights on or to pay for salaries. It's going to go to to keep the lights on or to pay for salaries. It's going to go to expand and build and grow the, the ministry, to a point that more people are going to be able to come and fewer people are going to be turned away. You know we have a massive waiting list always, and so even for SWO 25 we've got a huge waiting list. So we got six cabins and it was I just wanted to tell you this.
Speaker 1:What happened was a guy, a guy we don't even know, this dude, but our, the engineer that we're working with for our master development of our, of our new, of the expansion of SWO, where we're going to be building a new dining hall, a new super coop on the main campus. We built, you know, we bought um almost 30 acres a couple of years ago, and so we're going to expand everything. But we're developing a master development plan and working with an engineer, a guy that loves the Lord and believes in SWO, and he connected us with a builder that sent a crew of guys over here and they did a lot of the framing. They did the framing and the roofing, did a lot of the work. We got the job sites ready. We got the building sites ready. These guys have come in and done a phenomenal job of building and we got six new cabins. So when you come back to SWO you'll see them. It's going to be awesome.
Speaker 1:And then the new property, that expansion area. We've been doing a lot of landscaping, just grounds, clean up on that property and it looks awesome. So if you haven't been to SLO in a while and you're coming back soon, come back in 2025, you need to take a walk on the what, what, the new expansion property, um, and just take a look at at that property, because that's where we're getting ready to grow and build and God's doing awesome things. And then you also need to take a walk, um, up into the area where we built the six new cabins. So if you're coming to SWO this, this upcoming year, um, make sure somebody uh, points those out to you so you can check it out, see what God's doing, that's going to.
Speaker 1:That's going to equate between five and 600 students coming to SWO in 25 that otherwise would not have gotten off of the waiting list. So that's worth praising the Lord over and just saying thank you to God and to y'all those that have prayed, those that have given, those that have worked and, um, it's good, god is good. So, love this season and we'll be doing some Christmassy stuff in the next few weeks here on the podcast and we'll jump back into some Q&A, answer some more questions. Send us your questions. We love answering them. Thanks, blake, hope this has been a blessing to you.
Speaker 2:We'll see you next week on no Sanity Required. Thanks for listening to no Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at SWOutfitterscom to see all of our programming and resources, and we'll see you next week on no Sanity Required.
