No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
Faithful Leadership in the Midst of Failure
In this episode, Brody addresses the painful issue of moral failure among pastors and its impact on the church. He explores what Biblical leadership should look like, drawing from 1 Peter 5, and shares practical advice on how pastors can stay faithful, avoid isolation, and stay accountable. Brody reflects on his own experience with his father’s moral failure and how it shaped his view of ministry.
Whether you're in church leadership or just part of a congregation, Brody offers helpful insights on what to look for in a pastor and how to support your leaders. He encourages listeners to serve one another in humility and love, emphasizing that a healthy church thrives when everyone is involved. Brody also shares updates about upcoming events like SWO25 Summer Camp and Winter SWO, and encourages prayer and support for your pastor.
1 Peter 5:1-5
When Heroes of the Faith Fall NSR Episode
A Shepard Looks at Psalm 23 by Phillip Keller
WinterSWO Youth Retreat
SWO25 Summer Camp
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Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.
Well, in this week's episode of NSR I'm recording from the voice memo app on my phone. You might have picked up on that. A couple of weeks ago we had some weird sound quality and that might happen again today. But y'all, I'm so hard on equipment and I'm sure that I'm the only person that has a podcast who and everybody's got a podcast. These days Podcasts are like you know, everybody's got one. Y'all know the saying. Podcasts are like blank Everybody's got one. If you don't know the saying, then you didn't grow up in the 70s or 80s and that's okay. But anyway, I think I'm probably the only person who broke their podcast or the podcasting equipment. So I got some parts ordered. Adam Garner got me some parts ordered. Have that back up and running. So the sound quality may be weird. The acoustics I'm just recording straight onto my phone and that came through really weird a couple weeks ago when I did that.
Speaker 1:But today I want to talk in the wake of the constant it seems like never ending flow and tide of men who are in pastoral ministry, who fall into some sort of moral failure and it becomes such a widespread bit of information and knowledge and the impact it has. A few years ago. I did an episode a few seasons back where I talked about I think it might have been the Ravi Zacharias incident. I don't remember, but men that I've looked up to. I think it was titled something like when Giants of the Faith Fall, and we'll link that episode in the notes to this episode so you can go back and listen to that if you hadn't heard in a while.
Speaker 1:But today I just want to walk through God's design and plan and instruction for what biblical leadership looks like. How do we know if a pastor or a leader is doing and being what he needs to do and be biblically? I think what we find is that oftentimes we're really shocked when somebody falls. You know there's a moral failure, there's a moral failure, but to be honest, I think probably more times than not not always, but more times than not the signs and symptoms were probably there, but that person lives on such an isolated island or a high pedestal that nobody sees it, and so we'll look at some biblical qualifications today and safeguards that I think help.
Speaker 1:Like. If you're attending a church where these safeguards aren't in place, then I'd be concerned about the potential for failure within the leadership. Some things that I think need to be in place that are biblical and things that we've implemented both at Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters and at the church where I'm a pastor, elder Red Oak Church. So I hope it'll be helpful information and maybe an encouragement if you've been hurt or wounded by the failure, the moral failure, of a man in ministry. So we'll get into it. We're going to go and deep dive here and look at what the Bible says about this. Welcome to no Sanity Required.
Speaker 2:Welcome to no Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters. A podcast about the Bible, culture and stories from around the globe.
Speaker 1:Before we get into this episode, I do want to give a shout out to a family in Ohio that listens to NSR. It's BJ and Kate, and then their kids, aubrey I don't know if Aubrey listens to NSR and she's a 17-year-old senior in high school and then their boys, case and Cohen, 14 and 11. I don't know if those guys listen or not they may not but I know BJ and Kate do. Mom and dad, they have recently shown an incredible amount of hospitality to my family. We were looking for a place to meet up with our oldest boy, tucker, who a lot of our listeners know that Tucker is. He plays football at Virginia Tech and he's taking a medical red shirt this year because of an injury, and so he recently had a bye week where they didn't play, so he had two days off. And then the team recently had a long distance road game and Tuck had a day and a half off. So over the span of a couple of weeks he had about three and a half days free, and we were looking for a really cool place to meet up. Do some deer hunting, some archery hunting, take our bows, do some hunting Something that Tuck grew up doing and hasn't been able to do a lot of since he's been in college and we went and stayed with that family and they opened up their home. They opened up a home on their farm that belonged to BJ's grandmother, who has since gone to be with the Lord, and let us stay there and they fed us, they took care of us. I just I wanted to say thank you from the NSR platform to this family. That made an amazing series of memories for me and my son and my wife, and it was awesome. A lot of you probably saw the buck that Tuck killed. I think he posted a really cool couple of videos on Instagram. If you don't follow him, tucker Holloway on Instagram. Anyway, a couple of cool videos. He shot a real nice buck and we saw a lot of deer and just had a good time of fellowship food, watched some ball games in the evenings. Anyway, thank you to the Cox family, bj and Kate. Y'all are incredibly gracious and I'm so thankful to have you as friends and look forward to getting y'all to SWO soon. Bj's been here to some Be Strong events, looking forward to getting the whole family down. So, anyway, thank y'all.
Speaker 1:That being said, I've had a lot of time in the last couple of weeks in a deer stand. Y'all know I love to get in a tree and hunt and I spend most of November doing that. I take a lot of time out of the office. A lot of that time is not about hunting, it's not about the deer. I haven't even shot anything. I shot some does early in the season just to put meat in the freezer. But I had the last couple of weeks. I've hunted a lot and killed nothing.
Speaker 1:But I've spent so much time in the woods with the Lord alone, just reflectively, and have been able to already put together a lot of material for SWO 25. The teaching content is predominantly going to come out of Romans 8. And so I've been working on that content. I think I'm probably going to, on Monday night, intro the week with the last few verses of Romans 7, that struggle between the, you know, the battle between the flesh and the spirit. I may do an episode. I'm sure we'll do an episode on that soon. I've been doing a lot of writing. So Romans 7, romans 8, really trying to work on that. Winterswove we're going to be working through the book of Philippians and I've not really actually dove into that yet because I've been really excited about and getting a lot of traction on the Romans 8 content material for SWO 25. So that's been good. But I've been.
Speaker 1:There was a guy his name's Steve Lawson Steve or Stephen Lawson Steve, I think is what he goes by. He's a pastor. Lawson Steve, I think is what he goes by. He's a pastor, real, connected to John MacArthur Master's Seminary, grace Church, grace Community Church in California. He was the teaching. I don't think he was on staff, but he was the main teacher at a church in Dallas I think it was called Trinity. A lot of you are familiar with Steve Lawson.
Speaker 1:Steve Lawson is kind of a no-transcript through texts in the Bible, a passage of scripture, and draws out the main point of that text and makes that the main point of the sermon and then gives supporting application, illustrations, things like that. So it's a very pure way of preaching. It's a very clean and safe and practical way of preaching and it keeps you from getting into the danger of just sharing your own opinions. It sort of drives you into the text and the text guides the sermon. But anyway, steve Lawson, that's what he's really known for and it recently came out he had had a moral failure.
Speaker 1:This dude's probably gosh. He's a good bit older than me, I think, seems to me like he's probably in his 60s or 70s and he was having an affair, apparently with a girl that was like in her 20s. So you know, aside from the fact that it's kind of shocking and repulsive, it's disorienting. As Christians, it really throws us off when that happens. You know what I mean. And it threw me off and spun me out and just kind of broke my heart. And he wasn't a guy that I had really looked up to, he wasn't a guy that I really connected with. But it just reiterated that this happens all too often and there have been a lot of moral failures with guys that I really looked up to. And again, I said in the intro that that earlier episode that we did a few years ago, that was when Ravi Zacharias he had died and after his death it came out that he had had moral failure. I mean horrific stuff and I don't know how truthful or accurate it was. But there's another guy named Johnny Hunt who I love and so many of our listeners I know admire and look up to, and he's a personal family friend. My wife grew up in his church and we were married in that church and he became the president of the Southern Baptist Convention and then it came out that he had had a moral failure. And I still love him. But it's just heartbreaking when it happens and it's to me, to be honest, it's, it's disorienting, you know. And then, um, a lot of you know one of the early episodes of NSR.
Speaker 1:I talked about my dad's failure. My dad was a pastor who, when I was young, growing up, he pastored churches and then, you know, once I was a little older, he had a moral failure and it came out that he had had multiple moral failures. I mean, it had been a pattern of this and he explained things to me later in his life he died young. He died about the age I am now. When he was explaining to me what had happened, it was just shocking to find out the depth of his, you know, of his moral corruption or or or sin. And and then I remember when, when all that came out with my dad, I went off to college and I was, I was going to church, I was a new believer. I think it really came to faith as a 19 year old and I was going to church at a church called Living Word Baptist Church and that was, uh, that was in just outside of Lynchburg, virginia, and the pastor there was a good friend of my dad's and he really helped me navigate, just kind of healing from my dad's failure.
Speaker 1:And then that guy years later later he had a moral failure. He's like dadgum, what in the world's going on? And then the guy that sort of took over at that church after him some years later he had a moral failure and I recently heard that dude's wife on a podcast kind of tell that story. His ex-wife now that their marriage ended. That guy went crazy. His name was Jason and I mean it was like every time I turn around I feel like in my life I've run into this and I know that some of y'all feel that way.
Speaker 1:My mother in law every time it happens she'll text me. Did you hear about this? And you can tell it's just like breaking her heart and I had a conversation with her recently about this and for a lot of us that have spent a lot of time in ministry it's infuriating, it's frustrating. You know, it's kind of like every time this happens you got to go through what's that thing where they you know they talk about the different stages of grief where you're angry, then you're frustrated, then you're anxious, then you're depressed, then you're afraid. That may not be exactly what those different stages of grief are, but it's something like that and you might be familiar with that. But I feel like I go through that and for me, my tendency is to be mad and just to get angry. You know, and I was talking to Tucker the other day and I said you know, I don't think I think you know. And I was talking to Tucker the other day and I said you know, I don't think I think you know when, when Paul says there, but for the grace of God, go, I.
Speaker 1:I don't think if my dad hadn't have committed adultery and and and made the mistakes that he made, I don't think I would have been aware of how dangerous it is to just live life, especially in ministry, and I don't think I would have been as alert as I have been and I wouldn't be surprised if I would have had a moral failure, because I think it's such commonplace for people. I'd be scared to know how many people just people, not pastors, not men in ministry leadership, but how many people have committed adultery. I'm not talking about. You know, jesus said commit adultery in your heart, then you've committed adultery. If you lust with your eyes, you've committed adultery. I'm not talking about that principle lust with your eyes, you've committed adultery. I'm not talking about that principle.
Speaker 1:I mean, like the physical act of either a sexual affair or even an emotional affair. You'll hear people talk about that and I used to think what's that? What's that got to do with anything? Until I walked through that with some people, a couple of different guys, one pastor friend who his wife had had a quote unquote emotional affair with a man in their church, and walking through that with that family it kind of helped me get some context for it. And I mean, I only had two or three conversations with that husband, that pastor friend, but it helped me go. Okay, that's what this looks like and I think typically an emotional affair is going to turn into a physical or sexual affair just a matter of time. But I think in that case, by God's grace, the Lord intervened before that woman and that man were able to go that far with it.
Speaker 1:But what I'm getting at is, I think, the moral failure of other people, the way that I've tried to make it a positive thing in my life is make it, make it, um, use it to, to keep a healthy level of fear in my own heart, in my own mind, that man, this can happen to anybody, um, and I think there are times where godly dudes have fallen into sexual sin with with you know, in an adultery or infidelity, fornication. But I, I also and I'm focusing on men in leadership Every time a man does this, there's a woman involved too, and so I'm not saying that women don't do this, but why is it that this seems to happen to men in ministry so often? And I want to give a few thoughts on it. And then I want to walk through a passage of Scripture, and we may stretch this into a couple of different episodes, we'll see. But we've got a lot coming up with the holidays, so I always like to do something around Thanksgiving. I also like to do something around Christmas and also I do something around Christmas. But at NSR we just try to keep drilling into culture and the Bible and gospel stories of people from around the world. So we'll spend at least this episode. We'll see how far we get here. We've already been going for 15 minutes or so, so let's see how far we get and if we need to follow up. I do have just so much written down and I'm going to try to read a lot, but how do men stay faithful?
Speaker 1:I guess that's one part of this discussion and the other part is, if you're not in ministry, you're a man or a woman, a young man, a young woman, a husband, a wife, whatever and you're looking at church leadership, what are the signs that need to be important to you? What do you need to see in your pastor? These are the things that I hope people will see in me and I'm not a lead pastor at a church, but I am the lead pastor at SWO and I am a pastor, an elder, at a church and I have been at one time kind of like a lead pastor I guess you would call it at that church before we brought our pastor, joseph Tucker, in. So what are the characteristics I'm looking for in my pastor and that I want to help him maintain and achieve? And what do I want to maintain and hold and achieve in my own life as a pastor, primarily lead pastor at Swoak? So let's walk through that scripturally. So what are the things you're looking for and how can you help your pastor in those areas and then, on the other hand, how do you keep yourself from falling into this type of moral failure or sexual sin? So that's how I want to unpack this.
Speaker 1:So first off, let me just say for people that are married, and especially for men that listen to this, who are youth pastors or pastors, let me just say some things that I think have been practical in my 30 years of marriage that I hope I can continue to improve on and focus on, and one is don't live on an island, don't isolate yourself. A lot of times the nature of ministry sort of forces you into isolation. I talk to so many pastors and leaders that are serving in churches where they feel like man, I don't have any real meaningful friendships or accountability. That can be tough, and so we've got to pursue that. So if you're at a church let's say you're a youth pastor or an associate pastor of some sort you're at a church where the senior pastor is not really he's not investing in you.
Speaker 1:I talked to a guy recently that said he's never seen his pastor's house. I thought, well dang, that's weird. Now I know there are people at Red Oak that have never been to my house, but there aren't many people at Red Oak that haven't been to my house because if they're members, we host membership course at our house. So if you're joining our church, the pastors and elders at Red Oak each take turns hosting one of the membership courses. Like our membership class takes a month, it's like four Wednesdays and we cover all of the distinctives of our church and anytime we do that, one of those Wednesdays we'll host at our home, and so I know we have people in our home that way. And then recently we've had two events in the last month. One was a Halloween party and one was like a house show. A couple of artists came in and played music at our in our home, and so lots of people in the house.
Speaker 1:And I think one thing that that a pastor needs to do is he needs to be interacting with people on a personal level, and so if you're a guy that is working under a pastor that doesn't do that, then you're going to have to create that in your own space. So be accessible to people. Don't put yourself, because when you put yourself on an island, it can tend to. You know, isolation is not good. We were made for community, now there needs to be. You need to be able to escape to places of solitude, but don't live your life in isolation. We're made for brotherhood and fellowship and accountability and availability, so do that. I think that's important. If you're serving under a pastor that doesn't do that, I'd be real concerned about that, I think I'd be real concerned.
Speaker 1:And then the second thing is there needs to be transparency in your life. So accountability, transparency, people that are going to ask you hard questions, people that you can lean into. I got a couple of friends that are outside of this ministry, that are not directly connected to SWO, that I know I can lean into and ask hard questions to and they're going to ask me hard questions to and they're going to ask me hard questions. But also within this ministry, I'm thankful for the fellowship that we have within this ministry, where we hold one another accountable, and it doesn't mean that somebody couldn't slip through the cracks and that certainly has happened, but in leadership it hasn't happened here and there's a deep level of accountability, but there's's a deep level of accountability, but there's also a deep level of fellowship, and so I think that's important. So don't isolate yourself.
Speaker 1:And then I think you know there's this biblical principle that we live in the light. We don't do things in the dark. When you enter into the dark, what you're doing is you're making an opportunity for the flesh. To make an opportunity for the flesh is to make an opportunity for the devil, and those two things are powerful in this world your flesh, the internal struggle with sinful desires, and then what the devil's going to put in front of you. Don't give opportunity. It's already going to be a tough enough battle. And what do I mean by don't give opportunity?
Speaker 1:Well, untethered access to the internet, private accounts on things like Facebook and Instagram or Netflix or Prime Video, where you can watch things, see things, and not have accountability. We need accountability, whether that's accountability software on your phone or iPad or transparency with your wife or your husband or whatever. Just don't have secret spaces. That creates what we would call opportunity for the flesh, and a lot of us have fallen into temptation in that arena, and so I want to be very transparent with that. I don't know how many people I've talked to that have had affairs. This especially happened early on by reconnecting with old flames on Facebook. You know.
Speaker 1:So need accountability and transparency there, and there's other things, but what I want to focus on right now is this is not, first and foremost, an episode about hey, here are the things that you need to be doing to stay faithful. This is how we can help pastors and view those in leadership with a healthy and balanced dose of discretion and grace. Let me say that again how do we view those in leadership with a healthy and balanced dose of discretion and grace? So you wanna see those in leadership with some discretion. They're not perfect, but also extend grace for their imperfections, and what this would look like is knowing that they're not perfect and so not being so critical and judgmental of them, but having some discretion.
Speaker 1:Where a guy who has been like in the Pentecostal or charismatic churches one of the things that I get frustrated with is a guy will have a sexual failure, moral failure, and real quick. They'll have him right back in the pulpit because he's a charismatic or dynamic preacher, when the reality is he's disqualified now from that position. He shouldn't be allowed to pastor anymore. There's other usefulness for him in ministry once he's been through the steps of repentance and shown fruit of that repentance with accountability. But, gosh, he doesn't need to be back up in the pulpit. I've seen that happen a lot, and so discretion and grace balance those things and I think one of the things what I want to do is right now I want to look at a passage of Scripture in 1 Peter 5.
Speaker 1:1 Peter, chapter 5. So I'll read this and you can get over there and look at it, if that works for you, but if not, I'll just read it to you and then we're going to unpack some things that I think will help you as a leader, an elder, a deacon or just a man or woman who's attending church and you want to really help your pastor or have a dose of reality when it comes to, like you know, is this guy leading in a biblical manner? Let's get into this. So let me read 1 Peter 5, beginning in verse 1. I'm reading from the CSB this morning, or whatever time of day you're listening to this, for me it's morning the Christian Standard Bible and the subheading for this is about the elders, about the elders.
Speaker 1:Now for semantics. The word elder here what we're referring to as a pastor, someone in a pastoral job. So pastor, elder, overseer, these are words that'll be used in scripture. So he says I exhort the elders among you as a fellow elder. So exhort means strongly encourage and motivate you. I challenge and encourage and motivate you. Think of a really good coach who motivates his players to get the best out of those players. So he exhorts the elders among you as a fellow elder. So Peter's saying hey, I'm one of y'all.
Speaker 1:This is a pastor speaking to pastors, an elder or overseer speaking to elders and overseers. And then he says and as a witness to the sufferings of Christ, as well as one who shares in the glory about to be revealed. So he's saying I'm a pastor and I'm speaking to pastors and we need a lot of pastors and we need overseers and elders and pastors. And I'm speaking to you and I want to challenge and exhort you. And I want to do so because I'm an eyewitness to the ministry of Jesus, to the glory of Jesus revealed. And think about Peter saw the glory of Jesus revealed on the Mount of Transfiguration and then he saw the glory of Jesus revealed through the resurrection. He was an eyewitness to the resurrection. So Peter is basically speaking as one who has authority.
Speaker 1:So what is this pastor, this earliest pastor, some would say the first pastor in the Christian church? What does he say to other pastors and elders as an exhortation, a challenge, an encouragement. I think the first thing he says is that there's more than one elder, there's more than one pastor. Now he could be speaking to pastors in different congregations, but one of the things that I think are important is that a church has and practices what we would call a plurality of elders. So I can give you the example of at Red Oak we have our lead pastor Some churches would call that the senior pastor or lead pastor and then we have a team of what we would call lay pastors. These are men who don't do this as their job, but they meet the qualifications of an elder. Now, this is not an episode where we're going to get into the qualifications of elders, but if you don't know what those are, paul breaks that down in his letters to Timothy and Titus.
Speaker 1:And so what are the roles and characteristics of an elder, whether he's paid for the job or not? So a healthy church is going to have probably a mix of paid pastoral staff and non-paid pastoral staff. I think that's a healthy and biblical dynamic, and think of it this way. Again, I use the example of our church, where each of us sort of fits a little bit of a different role, feels a little bit of a different role, and that being some of us teach more, some of us do more of the day-to-day work of administration. Some do the work of counseling and pastoral care. Some are going to be more gifted in that area and then some are going to be more connected to the discipleship side of what the church is doing, whether that's working with the deacons or the discipleship group leaders in our small groups. So different jobs.
Speaker 1:Think about, a church gets real unhealthy when you've got one guy that's kind of doing everything, calling all the shots. And you tend to see this in two different arenas. One, small churches, where nobody steps up and leads and one guy gets stuck doing everything. That guy's going to burn out and he's going to get unhealthy spiritually, physically, psychologically, emotionally. Or mega churches, where one guy really all he does is gets to be on stage in front of the screen, in front of the camera, and he's a really dynamic speaker. So he's preaching and teaching, but that guy he's not real accessible to people. The thing I love about the plurality a group of folks sharing responsibility.
Speaker 1:When I was a kid I've mentioned this before there was a place called Ghost Town in the Sky. Ghost Town in the Sky was an amusement park in maggie valley, north carolina, set up on top of the mountain and it bordered the great smokies national park. You could look over into the park and some of y'all, I'm sure, maybe visited, uh, ghost town in the sky, but it was a western. It was like an old cowboy, old west themed amusement park and so there was like a main street with the saloon and different things, a general store and then they would have these I mean, you just saw cowboys walking around like you're in the old West Guys would ride in on their horses and there was a bank there and they would do these enactments where these bandits or outlaws would ride into town and they're going to rob the bank and then the sheriff would have a shootout with them. And it was kind of like you're stepping onto the scene of one of those old Western shows, you know cowboy shows that a lot of old guys like to watch. Well, they had in the saloon. They always had live entertainment, some kind of show going on, and it was all family friendly.
Speaker 1:And I remember they had a guy there and he was just called the one man band and I don't know if you've ever seen a one man band, but he's got, like you know, one of these contraptions that holds a harmonica right in front of his mouth and then he's got a drumstick, you know, strapped to the bill of his hat where he can hit a hi-hat cymbal. And then he's got, you know, a tambourine taped to one foot and he's hitting a kick drum with the other foot and he's playing a banjo with one hand and a dobro or guitar with the other hand. Whatever, he's playing all these instruments. But I'll be honest, I can remember, even as a kid, thinking this is obnoxious. I like it a whole lot better when one person each is playing one of those instruments. There's a more symphoniconic, orchestrated sound to it. So, a lot of churches, you end up with a one man band. You got a guy up there and he's he's doing everything. And then other churches, you've got a power structure where the guy at the top he's calling all the shots but he's not very personable or accessible.
Speaker 1:And so Peter is saying, hey, I'm an elder among you, we're all in this together, and so let's share the responsibility and let's do this thing the way God would have us to do it. So he says after that shepherd God's flock among you. So he tells the elders or pastors shepherd God's flock among you. Then he gives instruction on how to do that, not overseeing out of compulsion, but willingly as's flock among you. Then he gives instruction on how to do that, not overseeing out of compulsion, but willingly as God would have you, not out of greed for money, but eagerly, not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. In the same way, you who are younger be subject to the elders. All of you clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
Speaker 1:So let me give you a quote from this passage by a commentator named Daniel Doriani. This is really good. Oh, actually. No, I'm sorry, this is my. I think this is my quote and I'll get to the Doriani quote, not that it matters. Okay, this is something I wrote, being an asset, not a liability.
Speaker 1:There's often a difference between a true leader and an effective influencer. Recognize that True leadership embraces responsibility that is often carried out behind the scenes and without appreciation or approval from others. Stress and demands of high-level leadership will never be understood by those in middle management or ground-level leadership. So for those of you that are pastors, youth pastors, lay elders, deacons, small group leaders, what I would say there is. What I'm saying is there are going to be a lot of things that you do behind the scenes that you're not going to get credit for, nobody's going to appreciate it. But just serve and be faithful to the Lord and his calling on your life, knowing that the Lord is the one that rewards us, and a lot of that reward is simply in the gratification of faithfulness, knowing that I'm serving faithfully. Okay, now, now I want to read something from Daniel Doriani, his First Peter commentary.
Speaker 1:Leadership is a paradox. It is a glory and a ruin, a privilege and a torment. People look for leaders who are in short supply and look to leaders whose skills are often exaggerated. People assist and advise them, favor and flatter them, haunt them and hover over them, but others suspect, criticize and condemn they, drown their leaders and delight in their demise. It's so much easier to review a book or movie than to write or direct one, and it's so much easier to rail at a leader than to be one. Every step up is simultaneously a step down. Every leader knows the paradoxes of headship, sees them, hears them, smells them coming in a way that fits his room.
Speaker 1:A judge has great power. He ferrets out the truth, protects the defenseless, punishes evildoers. He finds petty miscreants, jails the wicked, acquits the innocent. But every sound judgment's going to disappoint someone a little, and a few earn a leader full-blooded enemies. Presidents and prime ministers are the most loved and the most detested persons in their lands, the objects of fevered adulation and plotted assassination In the circle of being in leadership.
Speaker 1:When you're a pastor, you're never going to please everybody and it's probably good if there's a healthy amount of tension. I say healthy. You shouldn't live in constant conflict, but a little bit of tension and some conflict that you have to sort of work through is going to be good. But I would say to people that are disheartened and frustrated by the failure of pastors again, this goes back to make sure that you're not just critical or suspicious, that you're extending grace, but that you have some discretion. How can I help this person succeed? That should be the question you're asking of your pastor. So again, it's a specific challenge.
Speaker 1:When Peter's saying I exhort the elders, he's speaking to the leadership of the church, but it's important for all of us and I think it's really important for those who are choosing a home church. It's important for the accountability of leaders. Those in pastoral leadership are not called to some different level of holiness. They're not supposed to be like super Christians, but there's a level of accountability and that's addressed in James, chapter three, verse one. It says not many of you should become teachers because we will receive a stricter judgment. And so you think about again when a pastor falls the sexual failure, financial failure, marital failure, abuse of power, something like that. It's very catastrophic and destructive to a lot of people and a lot of people lose heart and lose faith over that.
Speaker 1:This is an intense moment for me. By the way, for me when I read this, it's like Peter's looking right into my eyes, same way that when Jesus looked at Peter and he challenged him. You remember this where Jesus said. This was in John 21,. Jesus said Peter, feed my sheep. And it's like I feel the weight of Jesus saying that to Peter. When Peter is saying this to me, I exhort you, shepherd, the flock that is among you. It's very personal to me and, especially because he is a fellow elder, he has this unique authority and I appreciate that. It's kind of like I've talked.
Speaker 1:I didn't serve in the military but I talked to men in the military that say when an officer starts off as an enlisted man, he has more credibility with the enlisted men once he becomes an officer, same with a chaplain. A chaplain who just comes in straight into the chaplaincy doesn't have quite the same equity with the men. There's a guy named Jeff Struker. Many of you will have heard of him. I think he's a professor, maybe a teacher at Southeastern Seminary now, but he used to pastor a church in Columbus, Georgia, and he was Jeff Stricker, was the Ranger of the Year. He was an Army Ranger. He was in that Black Hawk Down deal. He was the driver of the lead Humvee and his book is crazy I forget what it's called, but it's awesome. He tells the Black Hawk Down story from his perspective.
Speaker 1:But the latter part of his military career he was a chaplain and I've always thought, man, that dude, you know guys, those young rangers or young infantrymen, they had to respect him so much and so Peter's like that he had failed miserably and so he wasn't perfect. When he says I'm a fellow elder, he's not saying, hey, do what I say. He's saying I've learned and I want to share from that and that's a good example. And then he you know the part where he says, as a partaker in the glory that's going to be revealed, peter was a witness of the part you know and and a partaker in the so much of what Jesus had revealed, and we mentioned that. Uh, um, you know the fact that he was there for so much, including the, the, the resurrection of Jesus and what you call it the transfiguration. I think there was a commentator, I jotted this down. He says this Peter notes that this revelation of God's glory is not a single event but a continuous act.
Speaker 1:The unfolding of divine glory is an unbroken process and I appreciate that, peter. It's kind of like, hey, I was there when Jesus revealed his glory in so many ways, but he's continuing to reveal his glory. And I would say to you, brother or sister, when you open God's word in the morning, he's revealing his glory to you. When you look at the sunrise, he's revealing his glory to you. The heavens declare the glory of God. This morning I looked at the mountains and I'm spoiled. I live in a place where I have a beautiful view from my front porch, a beautiful view from anywhere on the property at SWO, a beautiful view from our North Campus. I get to see the glory of God in creation every day, but all of us have that opportunity, even if you look up, if you consider that we've just come out of a full moon, and it was so bright last night as I'm recording this, it was so bright last night, which was Sunday night. We see the glory of God in so many ways, and it's a constant unfold and a continuous, unbroken process of God revealing his glory to us. And so, when we're you know, when we are serving in ministry, we need to be aware of that, that God would reveal his glory to us each and every day. So then, what is it that he's exhorting them to? Well, he wants them to shepherd the flock of God. Now, I like this part that is among you.
Speaker 1:So the shepherding analogy is very heavy. In Scripture, jesus calls himself the good shepherd, the great or chief shepherd. Peter refers to him in this text, in verse 4, the chief shepherd. The shepherd is conscious, he's aware of the needs of the sheep. It's a great honor, it's a responsibility to serve and protect these sheep. And so for the pastor it should be a very high calling to be among the sheep. The pastor isn't to live separate lives from the sheep, he should.
Speaker 1:You know there's the old saying a shepherd smells like sheep. Or he should smell like the sheep Because in the shepherd world if you read like sheep, or he should smell like the sheep Because in the shepherd world if you read like the Philip Keller books are great. If you've never read A Shepherd Looks at the 23rd Psalm, oh man, it's so good. I love that book. But a shepherd, he lives out among the sheep and so he smells like sheep.
Speaker 1:And I think a lot of pastors they isolate themselves away from the sheep. You know, and um, and and. So I think when, when he says shepherd, the flock that is among you he's, he's drawing that conclusion that, hey, you're going to be among these people, you're going to be going to ball, little league ball games, high school ball games, whatever. You're going to be attending folks you know that are having the cookouts and birthday parties and you're going to attending folks that are having the cookouts and birthday parties. The pastoral job is an interactive job, but I would say to you who are not pastors and elders don't be overly critical of the pastor when he doesn't attend that birthday party or that cookout. I mean, there's got to be some ebb and flow, some discretion and grace. Remember, he's not going to be perfect. Don't be offended if he doesn't come to your thing Like get over yourself. He's got a life to live too. So, again, discretion and grace, ebb and flow.
Speaker 1:A pastor shouldn't be completely isolated, but he's not going to be able to attend everything for everybody. You know, I think about our church, gosh. This is why plurality is so important A team of elders, a team of deacons, so that everyone's needs are met and people are ministered to. The primary role, by the way, I believe, biblically the primary role of the pastor, the teacher, the overseer, the elder, primary role is the teaching ministry. The teaching ministry.
Speaker 1:Now, listen to this, because I hear a lot of people say, man, he gives a really good sermon, but he's just not very personable. Okay, then, be thankful that he preaches faithfully. Be thankful for that. Now, I'm not talking about celebrity pastors who are completely out of touch, who are untouchable, unreachable. I'm talking about a guy who tries to interact with folks as best he can, whether that's on Sundays, at the end of the service or he tries to get to the events where he can interact with folks. But if he's faithfully preaching the Word of God, you're going to know it. You're going to know he's putting in the time. He can't fake it Like you can't fake it till you make it. When it comes to rightly dividing the word of truth and that's where it's a little bit disturbing when something happens like what happened with this guy, steve Lawson, because he was such an expositor but I think he was also it would seem to me that maybe he had become very mechanical with his exposition and he was.
Speaker 1:This is going to sound very critical and sound like I'm a know-it-all, because it's a hindsight thing. I never have really enjoyed his teaching a whole lot because it was so polished and presentation-oriented I don't even know what I'm trying to say. There needs to be a level of humanity and personality with the speaker. I don't know if that makes sense, but at the end of the day, the bottom line is the primary role is the teaching ministry of the pastor. Don't be offended if he don't come to your thing if he's speaking and teaching and preaching faithfully.
Speaker 1:Listen to this quote from MacArthur this is intense man. This is called the man of God. I wrote this down years ago. I didn't write it down for this podcast episode. This is something that I read often. I'm going to get this put up on my wall when I one day have an office or a study or something like that.
Speaker 1:Macarthur this is on the man of God. Now, this isn't part of the sermon. This is an excerpt, by the way, from a MacArthur sermon, but listen to this. Here are some suggestions for a preacher.
Speaker 1:Fling him into his office. Tear the office sign from the door. Nail up a sign Study. Take him off the mailing list. Lock him up with his books and his Bible. Slam him down on his knees before texts and broken hearts and the lives of a superficial flock and a holy God. Force him to be the one man in the community who knows about God. Throw him into the ring to box with God until he learns how short his arms are. Engage him to wrestle with God all night long and let him come out only when he's bruised and beaten into being a blessing.
Speaker 1:Shut his mouth forever spouting remarks. Stop his tongue forever tripping lightly over every non-essential. Require him to have something to say before he dares. Break the silence and bend his knees in the lonesome valley of suffering. Burn his eyes with weary study, wreck his emotional poise with worry over his life before God. Make him exchange his pious stance for a humble walk with God and man. Make him spend and be spent for the glory of God. Take away his telephone, burn up his ecclesiastical success sheets, put water in this gas tank.
Speaker 1:Give him a Bible and time to the pulpit and make him preach the word of the living God. Test him, quiz him, examine him, humiliate him for his ignorance of things divine. Shame him for his good comprehension of finances, game scores and politics. Laugh at his frustrated effort to play psychiatrist Form a choir and raise a chant and haunt him with it night and day. Sir, we would see Jesus.
Speaker 1:And when at last he does enter the pulpit, ask him if he has a word from God. If he doesn't, then dismiss him. Tell him you can read the morning paper. You can digest the television commentaries. You can think through the day's superficial problems. You can manage the community's weary fun drives. You can bless assorted baked potatoes and green beans at infinitive.
Speaker 1:Better than he can Command him not to come back until he's read and reread, written and rewritten until he can stand up worn and forlorn and say thus says the Lord, break him across the board of his ill-gotten popularity, smack him hard with his own prestige, corner him with questions about God, cover him with demands for celestial wisdom and give him no escape until he's back against the wall of the word. Sit down before him and listen to the only word he has left God's word. Let him be totally ignorant of the downstreet gossip, but give him a chapter and order him to walk around it, camp on it, sup with it and come at last to speak it backward and forward, until all he says rings with the truth of eternity. And when he's burned out by the flaming word, when he's consumed at last by the fiery grace blazing through him, when he's privileged to translate the truth of God to man and finally transferred from earth to heaven, then bear him away gently and blow a muted trumpet and lay him down softly. Man, I just had to take a break and step away. I know you didn't feel that because JB just edited it right back in, but that gets me fired up and emotional to read that, especially that last paragraph. Finally, when he's transferred from earth to heaven, bear him away gently, blow a muted trumpet, lay him down softly and place a two-edged sword on his coffin and raise the tomb triumphant, for he was a brave soldier of the word and ere he died he had become a man of God. I hope it's said of me when my day comes. It's powerful.
Speaker 1:So a reminder there from MacArthur that the number one responsibility of the elder is to faithfully preach the word of God. So if your pastor is faithful to the word, he may not be the most dynamic communicator, but is he faithful to the scriptures? That's what's most important. He may not tell the best stories or have a great sense of humor, but is he faithful? One of the things that really influenced and informed my teaching and preaching ministry approach to it was reading the Martin Lloyd Jones book, the Preacher and Preaching early in my ministry. I appreciate it so much and it gives so much instruction on these things.
Speaker 1:But anyway, the last thing I want to do is give you these three contrasts that we need to see from the pastor from this text. He says this is in verse two. After he says shepherd the flock of God among you, he says not overseeing out of compulsion, but willingly. So one of the qualifications of a pastor is that he desires the office. When you read like, you'll read that someone will say to me I'm wrestling with the call to preach. Now I'm going to say something right now that might be controversial. Someone will say when were you called to preach? And then other people say man, I ran from the call to preach for so long. I hear so many guys say that that does not make sense to me. Run from the call to preach? The Bible says if any of you desires the office of overseer or pastor elder, I think we. I don't even know what to do with that.
Speaker 1:When someone says I ran from the call to preach and a lot of times they'll quote um, they'll talk about Jonah, and I do not think that's the context of a new Testament pastor, um. So it's just weird. Jonah was given a very specific mission to go to a pagan, barbaric people that he hated, they hated him and to street preach, you know, and he ran away from it, um, but eventually he went and then he had a bad attitude and it's like it's just it's, it's it's wrong context to say that that I ran from the call to preach the way Jonah ran from. I don't know this, haven't, haven't totally unpacked that in my own heart and mind, but one of the qualifications of a pastor is that he desires it. I'll read that to you, okay, so this is in 1 Timothy 3, beginning of verse 1, and this is a section entitled Qualifications for Overseers and Deacons. 1 Timothy 3, verse 1,. This saying is trustworthy. If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble work. So the idea is that the overseer desires this. There's a desire for it.
Speaker 1:I have young guys a lot of times ask me hey, how did you know you were called to preach, or what was it like? They want me to share that experience and, to be honest, initially some folks had mentioned to me when I was in my late twenties. I didn't start preaching until I was almost 30, 29, 30, right in there. I'd been working in ministry. We're building SWO. We started to work at SWO when I was 25. And so by about year two I was I was teaching like small groups, more like what a small group leader would do. You know, sunday year two I was, I was teaching like small groups, more like what a small group leader would do. You know, sunday school teacher, I was doing a lot of teaching, interacting with students. But I was I was 29 the summer that I preached my first sermon, and I preached one sermon nine times each week of that summer. Um, and by that next year, when I was 30, of that summer, and by that next year, when I was 30, I started to preach fairly consistently.
Speaker 1:But I found that there was an aspiration or a desire to do it.
Speaker 1:And so one of the qualifications of a pastor is he should desire the office.
Speaker 1:And so when Peter says, don't oversee out of compulsion, but willingly, man, there should be a desire for this. You'll see that in your pastor. You should see the pastor desires to preach and teach and shepherd and lead. He's going to have joy in the work. Now, a lot of times there's a fight for joy in ministry, but it's worth fighting for. And then with that not under compulsion but willingly, I think there will be humility. Pastors will be approachable.
Speaker 1:There'll be a humility about those guys and a lot of times these dudes that fall when you look back, there was a lot of celebrity status or there was a lack of humility. It always makes me nervous, I tell you. You see it a lot. There's been so much moral failure in the independent, fundamental world and there's so much haughtiness and aggressive condescension in that world. Pastors should be humble, okay. The next thing he says is I got to hurry, man, I've been going a long time and this episode's stretching out here, but hopefully you're still hanging with me and we're about to land the plane here.
Speaker 1:So the next thing he says is as God would have you, not out of greed for money, but eagerly. Says is as God would have you, not out of greed for money, but eagerly. So it's not for shameful gain or greediness for money, but eagerly. The pastor doesn't lead because he's greedy for personal gain. Financial gain can be a distraction and it's ruined a lot of ministries and I hate to say it, but there are pastors who pastor for financial gain and I've known guys a lot of times.
Speaker 1:I think this is how this goes. I've known guys that they started off faithful and then they lost the desire and the passion, but they didn't know how to get another job, they didn't know what to do with themselves, they didn't have a marketable skill or trade, and so they just keep working to collect a paycheck. They just keep pastoring. He's saying that and I would say guys like that. Their days are numbered, but there needs to be an eagerness to carry out the calling that God's given us. He says it this way. He says not out of greed for money, but eagerly. We need to be eager to carry out the calling.
Speaker 1:And then the last sort of contrast. He says not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. Or, in the CSB, not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. Lording it over is being domineering. So, as a Christ follower, the pastor needs to use this position to serve and strengthen and encourage others. The principle has to be considered, I think, by anybody in leadership, even in parenting, mothers and fathers, employers, teachers, coaches, business owners, especially, I would say, people in public office. There needs to be a servant-hearted mindset and then a desire to set an example for people.
Speaker 1:Thomas Schreiner he wrote a commentary on 1 Peter. He said this Elders are not to enter the ministry so they can boss others around, but so they can exemplify the character of Christ to those under their charge. That's a good way to live, by example and then, I think, being an example in humility and a fear of the Lord. Humility and a fear of the Lord. As a man of God who's pastoring and leading, I need to be fearful. That is a scary thing to think about. I'm going to answer to God for how I lead and the way I treat people, and that's especially guys that have moral sexual failure or who are like domineering, you know, like abuse of power. I think, man, it's scary to think about answering to God for that, you know. So some sobering thoughts there. In verses four and five he says when the chief shepherd appears, you'll receive the fading crown of glory. Jesus is the chief shepherd. And so you know, as a pastor, an elder, I'm an under shepherd, but he's the chief, he's the boss. You know, I'm not the boss man.
Speaker 1:Sometimes ministry hours will be really late. Situations can be difficult. Those times I try to imagine I really do this. I try to imagine that the person I'm ministering to at that late hour, that difficult situation that could be an inconvenience for me or little. I try to imagine the person on the other end is one of my kids, like, imagine that I'm dead and gone and one of my children, whether they're grown, they're a parent, they're a teenager, whatever that they're in a situation where they need pastoral care. How do I want them to be ministered to? That's the way I try to minister.
Speaker 1:But and what he's saying there in verse four is that if the elder or the pastor is faithful, the reward will be worth more than we can imagine. He says you will receive the unfading crown of glory Y'all. I don't know what that is, but I want to get one. I really want to get one of those. So that's kind of motivating, you know. And then last he said be subject to the elders. In the same way you who are younger be subject to the elders, in the same way you who are younger be subject to the elders. All of you clothe yourselves with humility toward one another. So as Christians and believers, we should submit to one another.
Speaker 1:This is a beautiful idea of how the church works. It functions this way we encourage one another, strengthen one another in an orderly manner, with biblical leadership within the church, just doing what you know. This is God's way, god's plan for the church. And God's plan, by the way, is 100% of the time the best plan. It needs to be the only plan. So we're called to have deep relationships, responsibility and sharing one another's lives, bearing one another's burdens, being willing to say and do hard things in each other's lives, to each other.
Speaker 1:Tough love is part of the Christian life. But it's not just that. It's part of the Christian life. It's driven by compassion and mercy, not judgmentalism or like. I'm going to say hard things to people I care about, not out of condescension or judgmentalism or arrogance. I'm going to do it because I love them and I care about them. I'm going to do it with humility and a fear before the Lord, so we can all fight the hypocrisy that's made so many people turn away from the church by just loving each other. Well, so many people have turned away because of the failure of those in leadership or the hypocrisy of Christians, and so let's love one another well, let's show kindness and compassion and humility.
Speaker 1:I would encourage you to be part of a biblical church that has a good small group structure. So that would be like at our church. We call them D groups. I know some churches call them community groups or impact groups or grow groups, whatever. But some churches are more traditional and they still have what's called Sunday school. But the last line of our passage is God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble being a part of a group where you can share in one another's lives and extend compassion and humility to one another, or speak into each other and be transparent. That requires some humility and God gives us grace in that.
Speaker 1:And then also concluding thought, I would encourage you to pray for your pastor. It's easy to criticize a guy you haven't prayed for. And I don't mean whisper a prayer, I mean pray for those in leadership, pray hard for them and try to see the grace of God in their lives. One of the most beautiful and powerful things we can do is to encourage one another and learn to give each other the benefit of the doubt. A healthy church is not a church where the pastor does all the work, but where everyone serves one another. We care for one another and we live in humility.
Speaker 1:And I'll close with a quote from Tom Schreiner, another quote from his commentary Smooth relations in the church will be preserved in the entire congregation if the entire congregation adorns itself with humility. When believers recognize that they are creatures and sinners, they are less apt to be offended by others. Humility is the oil that allows for relationships in the church to run smoothly and lovingly. Pride gets upset when another does not follow our own suggestions. Peter grounds this admonition with a citation from Proverbs 3.34, and James also quotes this Humility does not try to impress or intimidate others, but places oneself under God's authority and sovereignty.
Speaker 1:That's where he says that God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Believers should heed the injunction to be humble, because God sets his face against the proud but lavishes his grace on the humble. So I wanted to read this quote from Schreiner to get to that line. The last line in our passage is God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. So I wanted to read this quote from Shriner to get to that line. The last line in our passage is God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Shriner says believers should heed the injunction to be humble, because listen to how he says this God sets his face against the proud that's a scary thought but lavishes his grace on the humble. Humility moves the heart of God, and so does pride. Those who submit to God's sovereignty and humility will find that God will lift them up and reward them. So that's a good word from Schreiner.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, no one-man bands. Here we're in this thing together. Let's encourage one another. And when you are praying for your pastor here. We're in this thing together. Let's encourage one another. And when you are praying for your pastor, I think pastors that are supported well, that are held to accountability for how they preach and teach, that are given the opportunity, but also the expectation, to be faithful to teaching and preaching the word of God, and then they're part of a loving community. Listen, your pastor is not perfect. He ain't Jesus. Jesus is the pastor, he's the senior pastor, he's the chief shepherd in 1 Peter 5.
Speaker 1:But give your guy some grace. If he don't come to your thing or he doesn't dress the way you wish he would, or he's a little overweight, or don't let those things be the things that drive you. Don't pay attention to superficial things. Does he love the Lord? Does he love the scripture? Is he doing his best? Give him some grace and then use some discretion. If the guy's obsessed with how he looks and what he drives, then yeah, there maybe is a problem. Or if he's completely undisciplined in his personal life, that's going to show there are things that we need to use some discretion, but there's a loving way to confront those things. So let's pray for our pastors and leaders and let's hold them accountable, but let's hold each other accountable and let's operate with humility. And anyway, those are my thoughts that I've got from First Peter five after the recent, the recent goings on of a couple of pastors that have fallen. There's this whole thing down in Texas right now where in the last year multiple pastors have had moral failure this guy Lawson, and then several other guys from some other denominations. So it can be disheartening and discouraging. But pastors aren't the only ones that are hypocrites. We all do it. We're all guilty of some level of hypocrisy. Let's strive to be faithful to Jesus first and foremost and then give grace to one another.
Speaker 1:So hope y'all have an awesome week. Cool weather finally coming here. I'm so thankful I am planning to. I'm actually, if you're in the I don't usually do this, but if you're in the Raleigh Durham, cary area, I'm going to be speaking this Thursday here, in a couple of days, at Campus Crusade at NC State. So maybe I'll see you there, Looking forward to that and I am excited to be. I just love this time of year. So I'm planning on getting a wood some this week here in the mountains locally and do a little hunting, and then next week, thanksgiving, we'll spend time with family, so excited about that.
Speaker 1:Kilby and Greg are home. They're stateside with my granddaughter, alma Ruth, and I will tell you a lot of you asked about that. It has been amazing Just met my granddaughter for the first time. She's five months old and she's pretty amazing, so we've been having fun. She loves to ride on the four-wheeler, so we ride the four-wheeler every day and that's been awesome. And Greg is doing an awesome job as a dad and Kilby's doing an awesome job as a mama and I'm just so thankful for them and it's been awesome. So it's going to be a special Thanksgiving, first Thanksgiving as a granddad. I'm excited about that and the entire holiday season coming up.
Speaker 1:So hopefully you're coming to something at SWO and this winter we got a lot of winter stuff going on. We've got Winter SWO, several of those student ministry events, we've got the Pure and Holy event, we've got the college retreat and then right there at the end of winter going into spring, we've got our Men's Be Strong event for March and then our Women's Respond Conference will be in April. So lots of activity coming up in the months ahead. So hopefully we'll see something. And yeah, enjoy, enjoy this season. It's an awesome, awesome season of the year. I'm grateful for it. See you guys, we'll see y'all. Grateful for it. See you guys, let's see, we'll see y'all, lord willing, next week, right here at no Sanity Required my favorite podcast. Thank y'all for supporting us.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening to no Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at SWOutfitterscom to see all of our programming and resources and we'll see you next week on no Sanity Required.
