No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
Interview with Brody and Little: 30 Years of Marriage, Ministry, & Parenting
On this special episode of NSR, Brody and Little invite listeners into their home to share some experiences from their 30 years together! With 30 years under their belts, they share not only the highlights but also the real and raw moments that come with marriage, ministry, and parenting. Dive into their candid conversation as they share personal stories and valuable advice on navigating these aspects of life together.
Isaiah 58:6-8
Snowbird Marriage Conference
Be Strong: Snowbird Men’s Conference
Purity | SWO24 Girls Breakout
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Welcome to no Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters. A podcast about the Bible, culture and stories from around the globe.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we have three kind of topics marriage, ministry and parenting.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:All things you guys are ministry and parenting, Okay, All things you guys are, bomb at killing it. So let's start with marriage. So for the people that don't know y'all personally, can you walk through like how you guys met, how you guys ended up together, stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Little's version and my version. This is how this works. I think that's probably everybody's story, the two different perspectives. So I don't know what works better for you to go first than for me to go first.
Speaker 4:You go first, all right.
Speaker 3:So I was a sophomore in college. Little was a freshman. I was on the basketball team. She was a really good basketball player. She was like a highly recruited player. I was just on the team so I was probably a miracle that I was even there. But we were.
Speaker 3:I was with a couple of friends of mine. One was a guy named Joey Thacker. I was with a couple of friends of mine. One was a guy named Joey Thacker and we were coming out of a shoot around in the, the arena where we played ball. It was a bigger 10,000 seats in there. Come out and we're done with our shooting practice. This is the beginning of the school year and we're walking around the top of the arena. We stop, we sit down to watch. The girls team has come out to do a shooting practice. This wouldn't have been a formal practice. It would have been like think of a pickup basketball game and always make the joke that little came down the court. This freshman didn't know who she was. It was a new couple, new girls on the team and she had a crossover, a spin move, and I was in love high standards, she, she really did like she was.
Speaker 3:She was balling out and I was like, oh my gosh, um. And I literally said to my buddy, joey thacker I was like if that girl right there is from georgia, I'm gonna marry her. It's crazy, you can't script stuffacker. I was like if that girl right there is from Georgia, I'm going to marry her. It's crazy.
Speaker 4:You can't script stuff like this. And he was from Georgia too, right, no?
Speaker 3:No, Joey was not, but his girlfriend was. Yeah, he was dating a girl at the time that was from Georgia is what it was.
Speaker 2:Why a Georgia girl?
Speaker 3:I had this thing in my mind.
Speaker 4:Like we said, high standards.
Speaker 3:I had a thing in my mind, um, that I wanted to marry a girl from georgia, because I don't know if people still do this. Back then they called girls from georgia georgia peaches and um, I mean north carolina, georgia border. It's not like I don't know, I just always thought I want to marry a girl from georgia. I don't know, I don't even remember the thought process, but I remember saying that to him and he was dating a girl from Georgia and I was like that girl from Georgia, anyway, this is, by the way, folks, this is not prescriptive. This is not how you do it Maybe but it worked and so anyway.
Speaker 3:But we didn't start dating. Then he just laughed, he kind of laughed it off. And then I was, I was paying attention to Little and I was seeing her and that was around the time the Lord was drawing me into a relationship with himself. I wasn't a Christian at that point. If I was, I wasn't walking with the Lord, I was kind of seeking. And so over the next few months the Lord was dealing me and now I think there's a caveat I was a pretty wild guy, like crazy, not just wild, like worldly wild, somewhat worldly, but just crazy. I don't even know how to describe me. That era, the 19-year-old version of me, 19, 20-year-old version. It was just wild.
Speaker 4:Like just kind of fights all the time Got kicked out of intramural sports.
Speaker 3:I did get in a lot of fights. I grew up in a it's crazy. Crazy.
Speaker 4:Just like backwards crazy. I was backwards crazy.
Speaker 3:I think I was. Yeah, I didn't have good parameters. I'd grown up in the southern Appalachians, western North Carolina, in this tiny little community called Bethel, which is a lot like Andrews I'd never seen anything outside of and so, moving to a big university campus and meeting people from all over, I was just overwhelmed. I just didn't have a good social awareness and cultural contact. I was just wild. I was uninhibited and so, anyway, I had noticed little. I started paying attention. I'll pause and let her tell the next part of the story, because before that, before she does so, when you're a freshman, sophomore in college, you have these massive classroom sizes, Like there will be 300 people in a class, these freshman classes you have to take. I had a class here, directly across the hall she had a class and I realized she was going in and out of there. I was like I've got to go talk to this girl at some point.
Speaker 4:So Joey, who was on his team, who he told that to his girlfriend, was on my hall. She came to me and she's like little Joey has this friend and his name's Brody and he said he told Joey he wants to marry you. I was a freshman, I was 17. And so, and then we met one time I think my first semester, my freshman year, and then that was really it, and he acted super stable and everything for that intro. And so then Christmas came around.
Speaker 3:I guess yeah.
Speaker 4:And I guess he had been trying to like. Well, okay, so that freshman class was that first semester.
Speaker 3:No, it was the next semester, okay yeah.
Speaker 4:So after, at christmas, I guess he was like all right, let's try this out. And then did this thing. So he like started just coming up to me and, um, saying so, my maiden name was coleman. So hey, jenny coleman, I'm in love with you, I'm gonna marry you. Just like would just randomly walk up.
Speaker 4:And it was funny because everybody at liberty they like try to look, j crewish, like you know, and he worked, um, he taught a horsemanship class for Liberty. He could get a one hour credit and he and Matt Jones taught that class and so they had like a work permit, so when they came to class they didn't have to do the attire that everybody else. So he would show up in boots with just stuff all over them, right, pro rodeo wranglers like super tight. Um flan, like a flannel cut off and then a hat like cut down, like this. Although like it was kind of strange, it was a little it was cool because it was like different to me, because everybody kind of was like the same person. So it was.
Speaker 4:I didn't, I wasn't like thrown off by that or whatever, but um, yeah, and so he started just coming in those big old classes and like running in while the professor was praying and being, he would run in and tell me he was in love with me and then run out, um. So that went on for that whole semester and all my basketball girls loved him. They thought it was just the funniest thing. So they were getting endeared to him and uh so, and he would like fall. He would find like he had this whole posse of rednecks that would follow us around and just like stupid all the time and like we'd go in walmart and then they'd be in walmart and acting all stupid and throwing stuff at us like they were 12, um, and so that was like the.
Speaker 3:That was the pursuit that was going on for the always think of the forrest gump line when he said, because little's name is jenny and there's like a line in forrest gump where he's like I don't know a lot, but I know I love you.
Speaker 4:Like it sounds like I was a complete buffoon episode and I kind of was like but he would also do like uh, there's this really jerkish guy on the baseball team and he was trying to like hang out with me. We'd gone out one time and we were in this big hall and we were talking and like he was like right here and I was right here, big, big, just hall, with all these people, and Brody literally like walks and puts his face right in between us and just starts talking to me and Bill's like what's up? And then he just kind of leaves A hip check.
Speaker 4:Brody just talks to me for a while. So like stuff like that, you know it was just different. And then like all the boring stuff that was going on otherwise.
Speaker 3:So I guess it worked obviously.
Speaker 2:He was putting his moves on. Okay, so you guys started dating like Christmas semester, like spring semester.
Speaker 4:He just started acting like that at Christmas and he did it the whole semester, like the whole second semester, and then maybe around spring break break, he like asked me out. And well, he'd asked me out the whole time, but I said no, no, no. And then we I said, okay, let's go out.
Speaker 3:So we went and saw Silence of the Lambs no, the first date we rode, that was like a couple days later yeah we went worked at the horse farm, so we went and rode horses, had some Kentucky Fried Chicken. Yes, had saddlebags. We got a bucket of KFC and we rode to the top of the mountain.
Speaker 4:Oh, yeah, yeah. So yeah, we did that and it was fun, I enjoyed it. And then at the end of the date he was like so you know, I told you I want to marry you, so if you don't want to marry me, we probably don't need to hang out anymore. And out of my mouth just came okay.
Speaker 3:Literally, that's what she said. It didn't feel like weird or like contradictory.
Speaker 4:I mean I don't know. I guess the Lord was just like bringing it together in his own way.
Speaker 3:That's what I think in hindsight. We were both very little and I our both out of the box people. I think neither one of us were like just normal.
Speaker 4:I'm so normal.
Speaker 3:And and I think the Lord was just orchestrating things that were bigger than we realized in the moment, but not to over spiritualize it. But it's the first time I ever prayed in my life about, because it was during that time, from the basketball thing, like in August, till we went on that first date. That's the time where the Lord was drawing me and I was starting to respond to him and I started to pray specifically for Little, and I think I'm such a black and white person that when I started praying for her to me then it was like oh yeah, I'm praying for this girl, so we're going to get married. I know that sounds like I would never teach students to do that now, but the Lord just did a unique work with us. I think so.
Speaker 3:It's always when people ask us to tell the story, I feel like there's so many caveats to it because it's just not a normal romance or relationship story.
Speaker 3:I think the Lord was was opening my heart to, to want to pursue little, but I was so simple, like I have. A guy gave me a plaque that was when we were dating and it's been in my study ever since and it says I have one simple philosophy empty. It's really funny Empty what's full, feel what's empty, scratch where it itches. And he said this I saw this and it made me think of you, because it's like something needs to be done. You just do it. You just you don't complicate things, you're just like let's go, and I think that's always been kind of just the way I'm wired. And so in my mind, when I started praying for little, I was like, yeah, I like her. I wasn't interested in like dating, I was never like into dating and having a girlfriend, and so it's kind of crazy story, but yeah so by the end of my freshman year like we were we, we knew we're supposed to get married.
Speaker 4:My mom actually came up to visit me on spring break or something and I was like, hey, I got this guy you need to meet. And she said, when she met him and saw us interact, she was like, oh my goodness, this is like who she's going to marry. She's going to marry this redneck. I can't believe it. She said it was the most obvious thing ever, so I can't believe it. She said it was the most obvious thing ever, so yeah, I mean it happened fast. Like from yeah, in a month.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was a month. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So then we dated my sophomore year, we're engaged my junior year and then married before my senior year at Liberty.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's it, that's our story.
Speaker 2:Sweet. What made you guys realize that this is who I'm supposed to marry? You kind of touched on that earlier. Just like the Lord softened your heart, drawn you guys close. Is there anything else that sticks out?
Speaker 4:For me. Honestly, I don't know if you know this, but we had gone camping with a bunch of people and we were at Biscuitville getting the drive-thru. I remember you're ordering people and we were at biscuitville get in the drive-thru. I remember you're ordering and we're in your little toyota truck and I remember just going thinking like this is just crazy, you know, and the lord just being like settle into this, this is who you're gonna marry. It was like not audible, but audible you know, and that's that's when it kind of went down.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was for me very simple. I didn't want to date around and once I was like the Lord had put little on my heart and my radar. I don't ever remember thinking I want to be with anyone else ever. Yeah just pretty simple, pretty simple.
Speaker 2:So how long have you guys been married? 30 years, 30 years. Do you have any advice that you would give to a younger couple, younger married couple.
Speaker 4:I think maybe so, when we were at liberty. Uh, I was a senior and he was actually graduated and working at a camp up in in virginia and, um, we found a married couple, lance and kelly bingham, and lance was the track coach at Liberty and still is.
Speaker 4:But he was from Texas and farmed. It was a cattle farmer. So somehow Brody and him made the connection they're trying to find hay, the same place or something. And, um, lance is like a very intentional, strong, strong Christian man and he just like I guess, probably pursued Brody and was like, oh, you're newly married, why don't you come hang out with my wife and I? And they had two kids at the time. Um, brittany was like Brittany five or six and Cody was maybe two or something.
Speaker 4:And so we didn't do it like tons. You know, I don't think it has to be like every week Can we meet with you guys, but just like a natural hey, we got nothing to do this night, what are you guys doing? And we would just go over there and eat. Kelly would make jalapeno burgers and homemade ice cream, and it wasn't like they would, you know, feed us like nuggets about the Lord and marriage and stuff, but it was also. They were very intentional with their kids and you know, they didn't just fluff them off and act like they didn't matter. So it was really cool just seeing that.
Speaker 4:For me, honestly, that was a really big part of oh, this is doable and this is simply how it can look. So I think, asking the Lord to provide something like that and if it's His will, he will give you a married couple or something that you can kind of just hang out with and get some pointers, I think that's a big deal. Also, getting in a church or just something where there's some accountability, where because you know the first little bits of marriage, I think if things don't go how you expect, you can start doubting a zillion things. So like having somebody that's outside of that bubble, that can be like you know that's not right.
Speaker 4:You're crazy. What are you saying? You know, like having just somebody that's staple um, that you trust, and the Lord is, and you know so yeah, I think that's a big deal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I would also encourage people. Little and I were talking last night with Tara Scott Austin's wife, about expectations. Oftentimes in our marriage, I think people have had an expectation of how we were going to invest in them and we weren't able to do that because we have our own children and ministry. Because we have our own children and ministry and so for Lance and Kelly, we pursued them as much as they pursued us. They opened themselves to us. But then we would swing by their house, we would go, we would watch their kids for them. They got free babysitting out of the deal because we're like, hey, we'll come over. They had to go somewhere, be somewhere.
Speaker 3:I would just say, when you find that older couple and that could be 10 years ahead of you Lance and Kelly are 10 years older than us Then just gently pursue them and learn from them and pay attention to how they do things. There's so much to learn from just observing. Don't have an expectation that someone's going to sit down across from you and mentor you in every little facet of life. Just be in the Word, be saturated in the Word, love Jesus and His Word and then pay attention to people that are doing it right and learn from them.
Speaker 2:How have you guys handled some challenges or disagreements in your relationship?
Speaker 4:We really haven't had tons we get along pretty good. I made him sleep outside in February. One night, when we were first married, he almost froze to death.
Speaker 3:It's like the best. It's really the only intense blow up we ever had. It's like the best. It's really the only like intense blow up we ever had. We've been married. It was silly though. Oh, completely.
Speaker 4:I was really insecure and he was just out with his brother and some friends, like after one of my games, just shooting around, and he came at like two in the morning and I'm like, if you're going to do that, here's your sleeping bag, sleeping bag, see you in the morning. Click lock the door about. I was like about five in the morning. I hear little. Can I please come in?
Speaker 3:I'm freezing because she gave me like a one of those little kid Walmart camp out sleeping bags. I don't know where that thing came from. It was so cold. Yeah, because it's basketball season. It was like February in central Virginia, it was probably in the twenties and I curled up and my truck that my old truck was like a little two seat Toyota you couldn't even and so I curled up, I tried to make a soft bed out of leaves and that and I was in sweaty.
Speaker 3:What it was was after her game we I was friends with all the guys that would do set up and tear down the event staff and it when that was over, my brother was in town visiting and he was staying with a buddy and so we ended up like midnight we started playing basketball. We stayed and helped those guys tear everything down, played basketball till one 30. I'm sweaty and I'm in that little sleep Finally. I was like I'm going to die and sweaty and I'm in that little sleep Finally. I was like I'm going to die and we're so poor. I remember thinking I should get in my truck and run the heater but I had like an eighth of a tank of gas and it needed to get me all week because I was working like a construction job and so I finally was like I've got to go inside.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but like throughout the years, I think on a more serious note, whenever like I would have a scratch in my spirit about something you know, anything that I maybe had a qualm with him about or something, anything that I maybe had a qualm with him about, or something what I do or did do and try to still do, is not really like bring it up or let it consume me and wait like a whole week, because you know, with ladies we can be drama-ish with a lot of stuff and our perspective can get out of whack.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, I try to just like, like for a week, just let it sit. And if the Lord keeps like bringing it to my mind, then, you know, I think at that point I can become more like humble about it. If it's a genuine concern and he is always like very willing to listen and I think there's been times when even he was like thought that I maybe even wasn't right about something, and it's usually small stuff, but he would still, you know, he's just still willing to like apologize and what I need to do, or you know, I think if you're just like putting another person first, stuff just levels out. It really does.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think this is like maybe one of the big nuggets of this interview or this podcast would be. I want to speak for just a minute to that, because it's I think it's. It brings up an important principle, and there are things about our relationship that may not work for other people, but but the thing about a biblical principle is it works for all people in all places, in all times. That's what a biblical principle is, so it doesn't matter what cultural context, what language you speak, what your background is. There are things about us that wouldn't work for other people, but the biblical principles are important and I think this brings up an important principle we've learned. That initially seemed counterintuitive or counterbiblical to me, and it was.
Speaker 3:I used to think of that verse that says don't let the sun go down on your anger, and I remember early in our marriage, having a couple of situations where I was like we have to solve this before we go to bed, because I was taking I was a newer Christian, I was taking this so literal. We got to figure this before we go to bed. Because I was taking I was a newer Christian, I was taking this so literal, we got to figure this out and then little wasn't ready to her heart was not in a place to work through it. She's the slower processor and she needed to process that. And she was taking it before the Lord. And I realized, okay, if she's taking this before the Lord, then she's not letting the sun go down on her anger. And here's the principle is that we didn't.
Speaker 3:There's oftentimes we don't resolve something before we go to bed.
Speaker 3:It may be six sleeps from now before we resolve it or talk through it, but we're committed to getting it solved, we're committed to working through it and for me it it it stretched me to realize, okay, there are going to be times where I need to step back and just let the Lord stir and work in little's heart and then in that time I'm praying for her and I'm praying and seeking the Lord for my own wisdom until we're we're at a point where, okay, let's sit down and talk through this, and a lot of times it takes care of itself. We don't even have to talk to her. About a year or two, probably probably three or four years ago Now, I remember we were standing down there by the pond and I remember saying something's wrong and little said um, I'm not ready to talk about it, and I remember having this piece of okay, okay, because the Lord's ready for her to talk about it, we'll talk about it, and I prayed for her for the next like four days, and then we never talked about it.
Speaker 4:I have no clue. I don't remember that at all.
Speaker 3:I mean, it was like one of those things where the Lord just I knew like the Lord just resolved it and so at that point I don't need to dig that.
Speaker 3:I think people, the tendency is, why are you aggravated, or why are you aggravated, or why are you mad at me, or why did you say it? It's like we have to give room for the Holy spirit to work in our spouse's life. I mean, you know Ephesians five, the whole point of the text on marriage is my number one dream and passion and vision and prayer for little is that she grows deeper in her relationship with the Lord, because that's where her security, her identity, her healing, her hope, her peace, all that comes from. It doesn't come from me. I'm not the source of any of those things. So if the Lord's stirring and working in her, why would I want to get in the middle of that and try to come on, we got to sort it out or we got to. It's like, no, just keep pressing into Christ and I'm going to pray for you and I'm going to press into Christ, and so often Lord just brings resolve, you know.
Speaker 2:That's good. Even this past summer, anna Rose's breakout or her like session kind of touched on that and I thought it was so good. I feel like a lot of times girls especially would be like oh, I'm going to get married and everything's going to be perfect.
Speaker 3:Like my be like, oh, I'm gonna get married and everything's gonna be perfect, like my husband's gonna fulfill all these needs for me, or you know. But I think that's good, just good advice all around and I think with that, so like in in a, in a marriage, you have the opportunity for an insecurity to be magnified or reduced. It's probably not going to go away, but as married husband and wife, what I've learned is insecurities I have. They don't go away, but my relationship with little will either magnify them or reduce them. And if I'm walking in the flesh or I'm being selfish, it magnifies the insecurity. But if I'm walking in the spirit and I'm loving my wife more than I love myself and trying to serve her, then it reduces that problem and it becomes very manageable when I realize, oh, the lord's giving me power over this goes both ways, that's good, yeah, because I.
Speaker 4:It can even be like a power thing where I could go oh, I can have some sort of effect on how you're handling your insecurity or whatever, and it can be. If I'm not in the Word and seeking the Lord, I can use it for my advantage if I'm being selfish with it.
Speaker 3:I remember someone in our family, an older generation, telling us a story one time where his mom had weaponized something like that against his dad and then she said said to him you're just like your dad.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It was like that was a jab.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, and it's like not rather than weaponizing it.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:How do you guys keep Christ at the center of your marriage?
Speaker 4:yeah, that's pretty simple. I mean, every morning I sit right there on that sofa and just you know I'm in the word and even before I read I'll just kind of sit there and just kind of like honor, you know, honor the lord, and just acknowledge and ponder, like on him and let him kind of like separate. You know?
Speaker 2:okay, you don't need to worry about this.
Speaker 4:Pray hard about this, you know, and and just come to the Lord with anything that's just laid on my heart and from that point on, it's just like you're seeing through through his eyes and it's, you know, pretty. It's not easy, but you got the Lord's help for your day.
Speaker 3:I sit right here.
Speaker 3:It's literally where I sit, little sits there. I usually get up when it's still dark and nobody's stirring in the house. If you spend time at the feet of Jesus, my reading Bible is not my preaching Bible. I just keep it right behind the couch. Just take it out, my big print Bible. Now that I'm old, can't see, good you know, and all I do. I don't mark it up or anything. I don't write For me, it's just for me. I don't journal, I don't. I just read the scripture slowly and I imagine I drink cold water and I read the bible, and for me it's a visual of the way this water is hydrating me. The scripture is bringing nourishment and hydration to my soul, and so then you start with a well hydrated soul from the living water scripture. That's the image that I picture.
Speaker 4:Little does the same thing yeah, I was listening to this interview the other day and the lady was saying, like you know, when you go to Olive Garden and there's so many good things to eat and you know you take a while to figure out what you want, but then they bring all that bread and it's like you get so full in that bread when your food comes you're like I gotta just take this home. You know it's not as like it's not doesn't look as appealing as it did before. And she was just kind of saying, like if you do that in the morning with like it says the word is you know bread and like nourishment, it's like if you seek that in the morning, then you don't live like entitled throughout your day. It's like the lord's enough and you're not self-seeking and you know it's, he fills you up and things that seemed appealingseeking, and you know he fills you up and things that seemed appealing, miraculously, don't you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, this kind of leads into the next question, but what are some like habits or things that you guys do to keep yourself connected and, just you know, stay connected through these 30 years of marriage?
Speaker 3:we've been polar plunging that doesn't keep us connected though that just makes me gold we just do our lives together like we don't. I. I think again. A lot of our answers are simple yeah, we don't have divided anything. The only thing that's separate is I require I think because of the pull on my life from the outside, I require a whole lot of solitude, and so I get that early in the morning or throughout the day I pull away because when I'm home I want to be home engaged, and then we just do everything together. I think that may not be helpful and it's not like we don't work at that. I just think, 30 years into this, like from day one, we've always just chosen to live our lives completely together and I think you see that with older couples that are 50 years married, the ones that are healthy, they've just shared their lives. I think people in our society tend to run in two different lanes, different directions.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and could you read something in Isaiah?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Like when you said like a habit or a practice, like in practice, I instantly go to like disciplines and stuff you know so, like praying, journaling, but then like fasting is one of those, and I think that something that is real important that we do together that connects us, even though a lot of times we're doing it separate from each other, is okay. Can you hear like six through?
Speaker 3:eight. Six through eight. Yeah, it's Isaiah 58. Isaiah 58. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Six through eight, 6-8 Isaiah 58, 6-8.
Speaker 3:Is not this the fast that I have chosen To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens and to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to the house? When thou seest the naked, that thou cover him and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning and thine health shall spring forth speedily and thy righteousness shall go before thee.
Speaker 4:The glory of the lord shall be thy reward yeah, and that's my granddad's King James Bible, but like that it says that that's the fast that the Lord desires.
Speaker 3:You made it 35 minutes.
Speaker 4:Me too. But Say something Okay, say something okay, but like, honestly like, that's a practice that the lord, like the lord, causes to fast and you think, oh, don't eat, find something that you want to sacrifice and give that to the lord. Don't look in a mirror for a week if you're a girl, or don't wear makeup or whatever. But the word says like that's the fast, like that's um the King James is beautiful language. Yeah, you can read it yeah, val Val Val Val.
Speaker 4:But um yeah, it's cool Cause it's like it says. It says, if you like to that to ministry in those ways like I'm going to give you healing in your marriage, past trauma in your life, whatever you need healing in, you do these things and you let those that ministry connect you like you're not going to have strains in your marriage, you're not going to have, like I'm going to direct you and parenting. If you screw up, I'm going to heal that and direct you differently. You know, it's like just really clear promises from the lord so it's.
Speaker 3:It's what I was saying earlier about. It's a principle that anybody can hold on to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's super encouraging just to hear how simple. You know, I'm in the phase of life where a ton of my friends are getting married and you you know on the website that you RSVP. It always asks any advice for the future couple or whatever, and I feel like, just in general, people are just kind of searching for a set of rules or something super specific that'll just make their marriage perfect.
Speaker 2:But it's just encouraging to hear you guys just are faithful and getting the word marriage perfect. But it's just encouraging to hear like you guys just are faithful and you know getting the word, and like it's not even that you sit down and do a 45 minute Bible study together. It's just like you're you're so invested in the word which you know is obviously going to draw you guys together and that conversation is just going to happen naturally. It's not like you guys are having to force, like you know, spiritual conversations. It's just cool to see how simple and easy and I mean not easy, but just simple you guys have made it. I mean it's shown 30 years of marriage is crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's crazy how often we'll be trying to talk to a couple that's in crisis or they're struggling, and we go away from that and we're like they're making this way too complicated.
Speaker 3:They're just making this way too complicated. It's two selfish people typically wanting what they want, and if you can just not complicate it, it's like just love this person the way you want to be loved and love them the way you want your for me too, even before we were parents, because we were married almost six years when kilby was born, and I can remember even early thinking I want to love little the way I would want my daughter to be loved. You know how would I want my daughter to be loved?
Speaker 3:that's how I want to love little and it's not complicated yeah, yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2:Um, y'all have anything else to add on the on the marriage part?
Speaker 3:if not, we can move on to ministry I do think one thing that I like for you to talk about is the. I always get the phraseology wrong where you talk about keeping a short account.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, yeah, that's right, short accounts. Yeah, like early on in our marriage he would do something and I would like so my, my family, uh, as was not very like confrontational or just come more private and, um, I wasn't used to like talking about anything. Something was like, you know, getting to me so early on when something would kind of be a problem, I would just like hold on to it. But obviously, like he knew me, so he was like knew something was up and he'd ask me and I'd be like nothing and so like, and it would be like three days later, at that point it almost seems silly. You know, like when I bring it up I'll be like that was silly but and have to like tell him so, just like keeping short accounts of if your feelings are hurt or if you thought whatever, just like go ahead and making that known and then you know talking through it and not just holding on to stuff especially early on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when you're forming the foundation. There's times where I can remember going to you, going a little and saying, hey, this, I may be way off on this, so if you tell me I am, then I'm, then I'll bury it right here. But and then I would say what I was hurt or frustrated or discouraged or whatever and she would either go, huh, yeah, I can see how that would be hurtful. Or she'd go what you shouldn't think like. You shouldn't think that that's not true. And then I would accept, like I was committed to accept and I trust you have to trust each other and I'll be like okay, I trust that she said no, there's nothing to that. Then that's all in my head and I'm, it's in my flesh, I'm burying that and moving on and I don't look back at it.
Speaker 3:Or she might go, huh, I can see where that would be hurtful. And I would go, oh, that feels so good that you recognize, you know. And then we worked through a talk through it. Usually we'd have to talk through it. Just that was enough for me to go. Oh, okay, I feel, I feel like the Lord heard me and she responded. So, just having those conversations but not, I think not coming to my wife with an expectation of here's where I'm frustrated or here's where my feelings are hurt, or I got a grievance or a complaint and then if I don't like her response, then it turns into a fight yeah, it's kind of like when Hannah leaves good, like when Hannah was barren and she went to the temple and asked the Lord for a child, and it said before, like, like she hadn't eaten, she was so upset that she hadn't didn't have a child.
Speaker 4:She was like wailing and he thought that she was drunk. That's how like much her heart was coming out and whatever sound she was making. And but it says like that she went to the temple and laid it at the lord's feet and then she walked away and ate. So it's like when you have to go at your spouse, to your spouse about something like you know, first of all, like going to the Lord about it, of course, but then, once you make that known, trust the Lord in it, whatever way.
Speaker 2:Good stuff, very encouraging. So you guys have been in ministry just about as long as you guys have been married, right, yeah, it really happens.
Speaker 4:That's crazy I don't think I've ever thought of it that way.
Speaker 3:Well it's funny because the way we got into ministry was I was, my degree was in criminal justice. I thought I wanted to be like a park ranger or a game warden here we live right outside the Smokies, and so I always wanted to do something like that. Or a game warden here we live right outside the Smokies, and so I always wanted to do something like that. And then I did. I remember setting up to do my internship my senior year of college with the US Marshal Service and about a week into it I quit the internship.
Speaker 2:I was like I don't want to do this.
Speaker 3:It was like nothing against guys in law enforcement, but I was like it's not what I want to do with my life. I just realized it and again it goes back to. We're so simple. Everything's black and white for me. I wasn't quitting because there was no, they weren't depending on me.
Speaker 3:I was going to do this internship where I was going to shred paper for 10 weeks and get six credit hours for it, and I went and talked to the Marshall. His name was Marshall Jenkins. He was at the Asheville North Carolina office and I remember he was about 6'5". He was skinny, about 65 years old. This was in the mid-90s. I remember he was a chain smoker. He wore cowboy boots, he was like something out of an old Western movie or something. His name was Marshall Jenkins. I remember walking in there to his office and it was as big as this room and I said Marshall Jenkins, I don't think I want to be a Marshall. He's like well, son, you don't need to be doing this internship. He was smoking in. This is how long ago this was. He's in his office smoking and uh, and I went and got a job for a buddy of mine that had a landscaping company and I cut grass all summer and and I remember I just didn't know what we were going to do.
Speaker 3:But I got this job and I was working in the outdoors and I got a call. We got married later that summer and I got a call from a guy at a camp that said, hey, your name was given to me and I went and interviewed and it was a job that was like construction maintenance behind the scenes it wasn't preaching, teaching anything like that and just took that job and we'd only been married about three months. But I remember telling the guy I was working for, hey, I'm leaving, I'm going to go work in ministry. And it was like in my mind, ministry was, I mean, it was like a dude ranch. So I was going to be shooing horses and cutting hay and we were going to be, uh, build it. They were building a lake and doing a waterfront program.
Speaker 3:I wasn't preaching, I wasn't working with students. And it's a good principle that ministry is not just preaching, ministry is not just doing missions. Ministry is taking your skills and your gifts and your calling and that's how we started in ministry was, hey, let's use the gifts God's given us and let's connect with students. And yeah, that was. We got married in August of 94 and that was in November of 94. So just a few months in.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but it was cool though, because, even doing that, so we ran the ranch side of it, and so we got to hire our crew, and one of those so Josh Ray is a pastor of a church that still brings his kids to camp. He's had two of his kids work at camp Austin Rammel Ari Rammel's dad was on our crew Susie Umflitt, who's Malachi Fletcher's and Micah's and all of their moms.
Speaker 3:Rodenheiser's.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's like that was crazy. It's like piecing this together. It's crazy. That too, and so they lived. It was a big ranch house and so actually the first summer we lived in the hay barn and let them all have the ranch house, um, which was fun. We put christmas lights up and stuff, but um, but then when it got cold we moved into the ranch house, um, so it's just, we're just living with those single folk and like made really strong, strong like ties with those people.
Speaker 3:yeah, that's cool. It is.
Speaker 4:I mean, that was 30 years ago, and all those people danielle all those people's kids are working at snowbird in the last two summers yeah so full circle yeah, I remember like we we had like, uh, we did horseback rides, we I lifeguarded the lake, but we didn't have any ministry duties. But I remember the Lord slowly we would end up meandering over to the services and talking to campers and he was just kind of giving us a taste and just pulling our heartstrings towards that. And I remember, towards the end of the last summer, I remember like um, leading a girl to the lord, like over there, and it was just bizarre and yeah, I think it was just like yeah, there was, I think before we took that position.
Speaker 3:I remember, uh, it was the inaugural season of the wmbBA and there was a potential opportunity. Little was working through, like they have, like the combine. She was at the WNBA combine and I knew I could get work anywhere. And I remember we had this conversation about hey, if you have an opportunity to go play pro ball, I can go anywhere and swing a hammer, I can get a job on a framing crew, a landscaping crew, and I remember wrestling through and playing around with that. And then her senior season is when this job we were married and I got this job and man the lord turned our whole world 180 and we knew over the next year, this is what we want to do.
Speaker 4:I think like, uh, I think sometimes, like people, the lord brings a ministry opportunity and people think they have to pray about it and it's like, here's the open door, walk through it. If I'm going to shut it, I'll shut it eventually. But like, if you know, and like I know there can be like over commitment. I know there there's like other you know parts of this conversation, but like, for us it was just. I remember I was working at J crew, like in the where you take orders I would do like the night shift or something crazy, and I remember Brody called me or something. There wasn't phones, I don't know how you called me on break or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And he's like, hey, your dad, like um, wants to start a camp and on your, on grandma's land, Like he talked to me about it. He's like, oh yeah, because so we had got. There was a professor, I think at Liberty, or some rich ranch guy that had offered for us to live on his ranch and basically take care of his ranch and it was like the dream for us. We were like cowboys, cowgirls at that point. Like this is it, you know? It's like I'll give you a farm truck, this will be your house, whatever. I remember like it seemed legit and so that had just been offered. And then he calls and was like hey, your dad wants to start a camp on your grandma's property. I was like, yeah, okay, let's do that. And so you know, it was just like okay, here it is, let's go. And I think when you start praying for stuff, you kind of get your own input instead of the Lord's. I think fear can come in that and really mess with your decisions.
Speaker 3:And yeah, and you never know mess with your decisions and yeah, and you never know. Like even that whole thing started because little's dad had come up to visit the guy that had brought us on at that camp, was leaving ministry and was looking to sell that camp for profit, to sell it. And I remember talking to Little's dad and saying do you think you could get the finance and go raise the money, get the finance and we could take this thing over. And he tried and then he said he used to come, he'd call people, he'd do this to everybody, he'd call you Buddy Bo.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And he'd call and say, hey, buddy Bo, I I don't think I'm gonna be able to pull it off. And I was like, all right, well, let's just keep praying about. And we had several conversations about what, if, we, what if, what, if, and then it just didn't seem like it's going to go anywhere. And, yeah, he called and said I think we can do this. It's just crazy that it was a simple conversation here and there and you look back and the Lord was completely turning your life. Even the way we ended up at that camp was that guy called me and said hey, I need somebody to come work, and to me it was going to be a temporary job.
Speaker 3:Every little step, the Lord's orchestrating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what advice do you guys have for other couples who may feel called into ministry?
Speaker 4:Yeah, kind of the whole thing about yeah, if the door's open, I mean like if it's a ministry opportunity, of course check it out, make sure it's honoring the Lord with what they're doing and stuff. But I feel like if the Lord presents it, head that direction.
Speaker 3:And I think I was talking to someone this week who was praying about a new ministry opportunity and he's been in secular corporate work and the Lord seems to be opening a door. And he said I don't know, I don't want to do this because of my flesh. And I said I hear people say that a lot where they're like I don't want to do this just because I want to or I don't want it to be a fleshly desire, and I think that can be. That's a wrong idea. Like people get confused. The scripture tells us what's of the flesh.
Speaker 3:The scripture in two places Romans eight and Galatians five. Both those say the spirit desires what is contrary to that. So Galatians five says the spirit desires what is contrary to the flesh. The flesh desires what is contrary to the spirit. And then Romans eight says the mindset on the spirit is life and peace. The mindset on the flesh is death. So you just go.
Speaker 3:Is this thing that I'm desiring? Does it line up with the spirit or with that? Don't say the flesh, say with that which brings death. Does this desire to go into ministry, is that going to bring death or does it seem to be that which is going to bring life, um, and don't overcomplicate it. And then, yeah, what little saying about? Is a door open, and a lot of times the door is not even open, it's just cracked, you know. But the Lord wants us to push and and it's not, sometimes it's a wide, open door standing there. Sometimes you got to push hard to get through it.
Speaker 3:Little, and I, I mean, one of my favorite parts of our life together is we moved to the property that Snowbird sits on, just the two of us, and lived there for a year while her parents were still in the Atlanta area and they had gone full-time with Snowbird developing a ministry plan. And we moved to the property and just started clearing trees there was not a camper anywhere on the radar Cutting trees down. We dug footers for the first cabin, we built it. We're hauling wood to the sawmill so we wouldn't have to buy lumber but we could build the cabin with our own, you know, wood and and it was a long process and she was working, um, at a shoe store in town and I was doing side work.
Speaker 4:we had no running water for three years no running water yeah no running water in that old cabin.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no insulation, we wrap it in plastic.
Speaker 4:Wood stove in the middle let's burn it down one time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we did we almost burned the cabin down. And then, um, we would, we would sell, we would go into the creek, take flat creek stone out of the creek, fill our truck bed up with it, drive it and sell it to a landscaping outfit for 75 bucks for a truckload of creek rock, and that will be money for groceries for that week.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and it was so fun because you know it was just like it is what you make it.
Speaker 3:I remember cutting down.
Speaker 4:We just made it fun. It was fun. Everything about it was you. We just made it fun it was fun. It was just fun, everything about it was, you could have made it whatever you wanted. My toes were freezing in that water. But, you make it what you want it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because Little's cold natured and she had to stand in the creek. We had five-gallon buckets and she would stand in the creek and put these and they had to be a certain size thickness and she'd put four or five rocks in each bucket. I would walk up the bank, dump them into our truck bed. While she's filling the next bucket up, I'd carry the empty buckets down, pick up the buckets of rocks, carry them up, dump them in the truck.
Speaker 4:That's a spiritual gift.
Speaker 3:Carrying heavy stuff, carrying heavy things, yeah, and she would stand in that creek, yeah, and she would stand in that Creek. And then I remember we were at the. We were at the um landscaping place selling a load of that rock and the guy will give us 75 bucks cash. Then we found out he's selling it for $250. And we were. We were there and I saw that he had a bunch of locust rail split rails like you make split rail fence out of. And I said you buy split rails too? And he said, yeah, and I cut. I went through the property and and I saw it and cut down 30 locust trees and then hand split them all with splitting malls and wedges while she was at the shoe store and I would. I did that for a. All I did was split locust rails and at the end of that month we had enough that she and I little and I loaded them onto the truck bed and carried them down there and sold them for $2 a rail. I think we made maybe 600 bucks off.
Speaker 3:I mean, it was a month of backbreaking labor and it was fun, it was an adventure, it was exciting, it was what is the Lord going to do Like? I don't ever remember like a minute of discouragement, it's just like so yeah, but to answer the question, people that are going to go into ministry? I think that's the answer. You better. You better have a healthy biblical expectation of this is going to be a labor of love.
Speaker 3:Nobody's going to be watching when the hardest things are happening. There's not going to be reward in this life. A lot of times, sometimes there is but um, but people are difficult and ministry is hard, but it's worth it If God's calling you to it and the reward is is incredible. Incredible when you see someone's life changed by the power of the gospel, when you see a marriage healed, when you see a child come to faith in Jesus, when you see people impacted by your faithfulness. The Lord lets you sometimes get to see glimpses. At SWO we've gotten to see huge glimpses, but sometimes you get to see the fruit of your labor and it's so joyful and rewarding.
Speaker 4:And the reward should be just in being obedient to the calling you know and like kind of being content with that, and then if there's you know stuff that comes afterwards, that's just like a bonus comes afterwards.
Speaker 3:That's just like a bonus. Um. One other thing before we move on to that, one thing that I would add to um, like that the idea of dealing with conflict. We're talking during the break in my, in my home growing up, when there was conflict, typically my dad would just shut down and he wouldn't talk to my mom. I can remember him sitting for a couple days and not really talking to her and her saying to me hey, don't treat your wife. And she wouldn't throw him under the bus. To me she would just. When I got older she would say communicate with your wife, work through conflict, because they wouldn't. And then there would be like a blow up and then little came with a different set of experiences.
Speaker 3:And so when you come together in a marriage, you're bringing so much from what you came out of that you have to. You have to start fresh and a new. This is God's story and his plan for our lives, and we got to figure out how to do this biblically. Maybe you have things you can learn from the way your parents did things. They were faithful and you can learn from that. Or maybe you came from a really broken home and you can learn from that, but what you came out of? We challenge men with this a lot at our men's conferences. You don't get to use your upbringing and your background as an excuse to not lead well, to not love well, to not be sacrificial, to not deal with conflict and to figure out how your wife and your children respond the most to that. It's your job to figure that out.
Speaker 2:So with ministry and just how involved you guys are. Um, how do you guys, you know, do so much? But then you know, keep a good balance between family? Snowbird red Oak pin will like. Just how do you balance that out? Keep a healthy relationship with it all a healthy relationship?
Speaker 4:with at all. Well, I think one thing for me I think it's good to not have a lot of idle time, especially for my kids. They like to. We do value being at home, but also they like to be doing stuff. Ministry is so great for them to see us kind of in it all the time and being a part of it and um, yeah, I don't but yeah, I think that's the key there.
Speaker 3:They're in it with us, sort of there. It's not like the thing that goes on outside. It doesn't take me away from family, it doesn't take little away. We're, we're in it together. Um, there are times where I've got to be away, for, you know, days at a time. Once, once we brought Juju and Mo into our home, we scaled way back on how long I would be gone at any given time. It's never more than just a few days. Um, but yeah, bringing them into it together and I would say, little said talked about idle time.
Speaker 3:I think that's important. Like you have a lot more time in your day than you think. I think people convince themselves that life is so busy, I'm just so busy, I just can't, and it is busy. But what's the option to that Watching TV, being on social media? If you fill your day and your time and your space with opportunity and you just stay moving, not with just busy work, but there's always something productive to be done I think you've got a whole lot more time in your day than what you realize if you just make the most of it.
Speaker 4:But keeping a Sabbath too. All the kids know, and they value our Sunday. Everybody gets to sleep in a bit because our church is in the evening. So I make a big breakfast and we sit over there and we eat together and then we do Bible study and pray and stuff and then, um, we'll go on a walk if the weather permits. Um, we just, we have zero day on Sunday. Let our you know, our souls catch up to our bodies and so good.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we, we do, you know, really see the importance of that of like having a day of rest. But the rest of the day, let's go.
Speaker 2:I'm always super encouraged just watching you guys live. Like I feel like a lot of times I'll tell myself a lie of like oh, that's just how they're wired fired. But it's like no, you guys are also making active choices and fighting to. You know, stay busy. It's like our desire is to sit and watch tv and, you know, rest. But I just think it's super cool just how how hard you guys push and how many different facets you guys are involved in and like that's just your lifestyle. Like I'm sure you guys don't even think twice about it anymore. I do think it's important. Sorry, no, you it anymore. I do think it's important.
Speaker 4:Sorry, no, you're good, I was done, I do think it's important, like what he said, to involve your kids. So, like with the tutoring program I run Kilby tutored, Tucker tutored, Lailie tutors and was going to tutor yesterday but couldn't make it work.
Speaker 4:Juju's been there here off and on and Moses and Malachi are in the program, so it's like I think the Lord will bring about ministries where your kids are involved because it's a huge part of their trying to connect to the Lord and understand practically what a believer should do in their just normal day, not just going to church and stuff. What it can look like outside of church is a big deal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because a lot of kids resent the fact a lot of kids have there's like the old PK jokes, the pastor's kids are the roughest or the worst kids. But I think a lot of times it's because the ministry demands so much from the family, the kid ends up resenting the church or people. And we've been always very we haven't done this. Nothing we talked about in this interview have we done perfectly. I want to be clear. We done perfectly. I want to be clear. But we strive to make sure our kids are involved with us and connected and that they don't question.
Speaker 3:This is not a value system where they're competing against the ministry. We're in this together. There's no competition with anything. We're doing life and ministry and we're a team and um, and so they feel involved, they feel a part. I think the way they're most valued is not I don't think they go oh, our parents. My mom loves me more than pinwheel. My dad loves me more than red Oak church. My parents love me more than SWO. It's not even that's not even the way they process things. It's this is what we do together. We love this ministry together. We love our life. We're, we're in this together. It's, it's all part of the life that we, as a family, are called to and involved in, and that you have to be intentional with your kids.
Speaker 3:I think for that especially you know snowbird and pinwheel or parachurch ministries. If you're in church ministry it's a little bit more of a struggle. No doubt you just got to be intentional.
Speaker 4:I think he has to be more intentional with the kids, because I do music, then I come home with the kids, especially in the summer. I get done at 930. We come home and we're here. I think he has to be, as far as a connection with the kids, more intentional with one-on-one time with them. I get that pretty, I get a lot of that. And then as far as in our marriage, I just, you know, trust the Lord that when we do get time together and he does, you know, in the off season he can come home for a little bit, or you in the summer it's pretty much go in the summer. It's kind of like I kind of get the mentality of military wife. He's, you know, he's just gone and and the lord, and like you just trust the lord with it, and like I never feel neglected or like he's negligent, it's just like a great.
Speaker 4:I remember jackie leggett. I don't know if I could remember this quote. She might have to, but it's like. So Jackie Leggett was one of our friends. Her and her husband were missionaries in Martania and they had four kids, I think, and her husband was martyred by Al Qaeda on the street in Martania and we ended up connecting with that family and helping them out. And I remember one day I was like, oh, no, we were at camp. And I remember one day I was like, oh, no, we're at camp.
Speaker 4:And I was walking around showing Jackie camp and a lot of people that you know kind of knew her story. A few of them said you know how, man, how, how have you handled that with the Lord and everything? And uh, she was talking to me about oh, and people were asking me like how do you handle being away, or like Brody being away, and stuff. It just kept it kept circulating this question and kind of concept. And I remember her talking to me later and she said it's crazy how people will think that a command from an earthly king is an honor but a command from a heavenly king is a sacrifice. It's an honor, you know.
Speaker 4:And like she said, and and it's crazy because her like when she, when chris was, was murdered, like one of the most enlarging things in my faith, was the first time I talked to her and it was like her, her like sturdiness in the lord and her trust and faith in the lord was not altered a bit and it just like blew me out of the water. I couldn't, I couldn't believe it. I was like the most evident God is enough for me and my kids I've ever seen. It was just like just there and so just working in ministry and timers, rates and stuff, like I do see one if he does have to be away for a bit, like as an honor. I don't see it as sacrifice and that whole thing in the Isaiah 58 like you're doing, if you're doing these things I'm asking you to do for the people that are hurting like that. You know that I'm wanting to minister to. If you, if you walk into that, there's going to be healing and growth all in your life in different ways so just be obedient.
Speaker 4:You know, it's like when the spies went to go look at the land. It was like what? 12 of them and only two believed in the Lord and the other 10 didn't. But they had already been promised so many beautiful things. They just didn't believe and trust the Lord with it. And it's such a big deal, just in every aspect, just trusting the Lord with it. He's like what I said when we do have time together, the Lord makes it sweet and great and it doesn't feel rushed and whatever, and it's always enough.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and there's. There are seasons where this time of year it's funny people have misconceptions about camp. People will say to me all the time well, y'all slow down now.
Speaker 4:It's like can you tell me when?
Speaker 3:that's going to happen.
Speaker 4:What's the date on that?
Speaker 3:It's like it never slows down. But I'm committed, I am very committed, we are committed as a family. I'm personally committed to that Sabbath principle of there's going to be one day out of seven where I'm not available, my phone's in airplane mode, I'm not going to, I'm not going to be available, and um, I think the Lord is faithful in that. And then I do everything I can to be here, um, to go to ball games, you know, to be present either at night when they go to bed or in the morning when they wake up. If I'm not traveling, if I'm traveling, it's different.
Speaker 3:And then, like I think I mentioned earlier, I don't travel more than two or three days now, and then I don't travel more than twice a month. So in a 30, 31-day month, a busy month, I might sleep away from home four nights, and so we just work at it. Just work at it. Don't get it right every time. But yeah, it's funny because our three oldest kids, they really loved time with me, our three, and with Little, but they wanted to go on trips with me, they wanted to hang with me. Our three younger ones, they want to be right where little is and um, so even when I've asked them hey, I'm going on this trip, would you like to come uh?
Speaker 3:crickets chirping they don't want to go, yeah and like uh. I think part of that is the unique needs of different. You know every kid's different and our three younger ones did not come into our home biologically. I think there are different set of needs, that little that they have, of little that, and one of them is just proximity. They don't want to be far from her.
Speaker 3:So even when she travels I mean recently she took our youngest Moses to a 21 pilots concert. They were gone overnight. They drove to Atlanta, saw the show, spent the night with some friends, came back the next day, um, juliet, our daughter, who's 15, she's in high school, you know she was, I could tell it was. It was really impactful that little was gone that night, um, whereas if I'm gone I don't think you know that it doesn't for a night or two, it's. It doesn't have that same impact. So that that gets maybe into a different category of conversation which is every kid's different and in terms of parenting it's. It's important to understand what their needs are, their spiritual and emotional needs, and and be on the same page to meet those.
Speaker 4:And I think it's important too. Like I know, with a shadow of a doubt, if I went to Brody tomorrow and said, hey, like this is too much, like you need to either stop doing red oak pasture or snowbird or whatever, like he would be like, okay, well, let's start talking about it. You know it would be priority. You know, and I remember like in the early days, he, he's like little.
Speaker 4:If it ever you ever start feeling like it's just too demanding, I'll quit and work at Napa. Just let me know every once in a while would just say that making sure that I understood and I think that's a really big aspect of it too was like knowing that if I was prompted that something to be pulled away from or stopped or whatever, that he would totally, you know it wouldn't be like, oh, tomorrow I'm turning in my resignation, but we would start talking through that and he would, you know, consider it like heavily. So I think that's a concept that needs to be established, you, you know, in ministry too, because I think that's where a lot of like hurt can come from, with kids especially, like you know dealing with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, kind of segueing to parenting, will you guys kind of give us like your family structure, like biological kids, adopted kids, when your adopted kids came into your family? Okay, yeah.
Speaker 4:So when we were in the cabin starting camp with no Running Water, we'd been there three years. I got pregnant with Kilby and I was like I need running water. So that was the first kid.
Speaker 3:Can I tell the one story. It's like 530 in the morning, it's probably January, it's so cold and Little's outside in the woods because we don't have a bathroom and I can hear her puking. She's got morning sickness. I'm stirring just getting up, stoking the fire up and she's like she gets out of the. We would sleep in the winter. We would sleep on a mattress right by the wood stove so we could get that heat, and we would sleep under these huge quilts and down blanket, down quilts and stuff. And I'm out from under the blankets and I'm stoking the fire up and she bails out, runs outside, it's 20 degrees and I can hear out there puking. She comes inside and I said, uh, should we try to find a house with like a bathroom and a toilet? Bad, yeah, that would be good. You're like four or five months pregnant so that was kilby.
Speaker 4:That was in 2000. I had her in 2000. Then we had tucker three years later, two years later, two years later. Then we had Laylee three years later. So that was it for a bit.
Speaker 3:A couple of miscarriages.
Speaker 4:Yeah, then we had two miscarriages and then. So now Kilby lives in Uganda with her husband. They're missionaries. They've been there almost four years and they have our grandbaby, alma. She's like five months old. And then we have Tucker, so he's eight. No, he's 20. How old is he? 22. And he plays football at Virginia Tech. And then Lailie is a freshman at North Georgia College right now. So then, when they were, I think kilby was like 14 and tucker was like 11. Anyway, somewhere in there, um the lord, um, let us adopt juliet moses. So juju was four and moses was one. So we lived in africa for like three months, um, and then Malachi. So Julia is now freshmen in high school, moa's fifth grade.
Speaker 4:Um, and then Malachi. We, we've been able to have him in our family for four years, and he came about through the tutoring program that I run. He was a student in that since he was teeny, but he would kind of be in and out because this was, things were unstable, but um, and then four years ago I was taking him home and DSS was getting ready to pull him out of the home, and at that point I'd formed a good? Um kind of connection with his mom, and so she asked the, the social worker if I could just take him home with me, which that's one of those. The door's open, it was open and so I didn't have to pray about it.
Speaker 4:I think if I would have, I think if I would have said, can I, you know, I need to go talk to my husband, or pray about it, or something like that, I think that window of opportunity probably would have left. I don't know if it would have been available the next day, honestly, because I think they would have got him somewhere. So she said you know, can he go home with Little? And I said that's fine with me. So we have full custody of him. Now Both the parents have signed him over to us. So he's in eighth grade. Sweet, so he's in eighth grade.
Speaker 3:Sweet. I do think it's been so important to be so trusting of your spouse and being on the same page because, like the Malachi thing, I do think if Little hadn't have felt compelled to bring him home, we wouldn't have gotten him, and I don't want to think about where that would have led because there's so many horror stories. But she just without me there, we were like-minded, we hadn't discussed it, but there's a like-mindedness in life that I think is important. I can remember her calling me and saying well, I've got Malachi Bateman, he's coming home with us. And of course we've known him since he was in kindergarten and we knew his mom when she was in high school. And I remember Little calling me and saying that and I didn't think a thing about it.
Speaker 3:And maybe six months later somebody asked me about it because he just was with us like just we didn't wake up that morning planning on bringing a kid home. It was just a day, it was like some random thursday, and a little call me, I'm at camp, I'm at work, and she said I got malachi bateman, he's coming home with us. And and I remember being like okay, and not think anything about it. And then I don't remember thinking how long is this going to last, or what's the plan? I don't ever remember thinking any of that and either one of it's like it goes back to that thing that hangs in my study.
Speaker 3:I have one simple philosophy empty what's full, fill what's empty, scratch where it's just like. Just do what. There's this phrase in scripture you'll see, do whatever your hand finds to do, for the lord is with you, I think, having that a little bit of that mindset towards life, but being like-minded in that. But it was about six months later somebody said wait, little just brought a kid home. I was like, yeah, is that weird, is that?
Speaker 2:you know, like I don't remember thinking that strange, just being so, just being in step with each other, trusting each other completely yeah, have you guys always had the desire to you know, be in step with foster care and adoption, like it's always been a desire? How did that look, you know, especially with Mo and Juju? How did those doors open?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we did talk about adopting when we first got married or soon after that and we actually did have a conversation let's have like three and then adopt some. But I remember we were just kind of being not silly but just kind of making small talk about it. And then I had Kilby, Tucker and Laylee. Then I had two miscarriages and I remember being like, oh dang, the Lord was like maybe just really like giving us a heads up when we were having that conversation. So soon after we started filling out the paperwork to adopt got a, we got a home.
Speaker 3:The first thing you do is you get a home study, got a home study and then we didn't adopt. We tried to adopt through the state A little boy named James and a little girl named Mackenzie. They were brother, sister and it didn't work out and we just kept that home study current until the Lord opened the door Totally. God was in it. How fast and quick and smooth it went, yeah. It was a lot of hurdles, yeah.
Speaker 4:And with the foster fostering we didn't really talk about that, that the lord just kind of dropped that in our laps. But you know, I've that's something where it's. I think that's um kind of a heart concept for people, because they maybe feel like they should foster but they're like I don't know if my heart would be able to handle. Like bringing a kid into my home and then loving them and really getting attached to them. Maybe they're pulled out and I'm like, well, that's just the amount of they need that love. What else is going to be going on during that time?
Speaker 3:The.
Speaker 4:Lord's maybe placing you in their life to show them Jesus, point them to Him, give them some food, some good food, love on them, and then they do leave. But like that's, that's a calling, you know, and the Lord will. Anything he calls you to, he's going to give you the skill set to do it, to handle it. It's not going to call you to something and then leave you.
Speaker 3:Yes, so good, so true, because it's basically I know people would never. This seems harsh to say this, but when somebody says that to me, I think what you're saying is my comfort matters more than this kid's crisis.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's really what you're saying. You're saying I couldn't bring a kid into my home and then all the hardship of that I would have to go through for them to be ripped away. And it's like you're saying I don't want to deal with that discomfort, even though for a week or a month or a year, you could provide this child with gospel, investment and stability. And I just think it's important for people to rethink that when they have that thought process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3:And what Lil just said the Lord's going to provide what you need to go through the difficulty of that, if he's called you to it our cat is invading.
Speaker 2:This is an interview.
Speaker 3:So you just have to move her, just throw her off in the ground.
Speaker 2:So what are some key values that you aim to instill in your kids from a young age?
Speaker 4:It's kind of two different sets, honestly.
Speaker 3:Courage, courage.
Speaker 4:Yeah, like there's a thing on my fridge where Tucker um Kilby, I think, and it wasn't like any, you know, he didn't hit her or something, he was probably just jerk to her for something, and so he was. I mean, he couldn't spell half the words, but here I had to write on a whole sheet of paper. I will show Kilby honor. So, um, that's, uh, that's something that we preached all the way through and you know, just to really like see your family as family, and I mean they, they, they, they. We didn't tolerate anything cross between them at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I really didn't.
Speaker 3:Kill me and tuck when you made him stand outside. Yeah, in the cold.
Speaker 4:Why? Why is that keeping a reoccurring thing Go stand in the cold? It was funny, it was cold. Why is that keeping a reoccurring theme Go stand in the cold?
Speaker 3:It was funny, it was cold, it was wintertime.
Speaker 4:It's because I hate the cold, so I'm like punishment.
Speaker 3:They were fighting. I don't even remember what it was over, but they were going at it. They were little, and little made them go stand outside and stare at each other.
Speaker 4:They had to hold hands like this and stare at each other, and look in each other's eyes until she was satisfied that they were uncomfortable.
Speaker 3:That was awesome.
Speaker 4:Trauma, trauma.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no tolerance, zero tolerance of not looking out for one another, caring for one another on the school bus, in the school, whatever.
Speaker 4:Also go ahead go.
Speaker 3:No, no, go ahead.
Speaker 4:Oh, it's not funny.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, I was gonna tell, when kilby was probably 12 or 13 and tuck was 10 or 11 and some 14, 15 year old boys and kilby was so sassy she probably picked fight. But it was some boys at camp and somebody called me and said hey, tucker just got beat up and I went down there and he had jumped, he was like 10. He had jumped about a 14-year-old boy Don't talk to my sister like that. He went in on him and that kid just kind of manhandled Tucker. He was so much bigger and older he could have hurt him bad and he didn't. But teaching that defense of one another, but then explaining to them, that's easy. Fighting somebody out there who's being ugly to your sibling, that's easy. Honoring them and caring for them in the walls of this home, that's more difficult. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And with the younger three it's been that and also like gratitude and being thankful Because the Lord promises like you're going to have a joyful heart if you can strive for this.
Speaker 4:You know it's been an obvious like promise for me with the Lord, so I like want to push that towards them, even like I think when Lailie went to college this year, there was still like two weeks where my younger three were at home and so I was busy with them.
Speaker 4:But then when they went to school that next, that Monday, I came back here and I was like, oh my gosh, I think I'm sad because Lailie's gone. I hadn't really like processed it well, and so I remember I was outside feeding the animals or something and, uh, I was just being a depressed little wimp and the Lord was like little, I've told you like be thankful seriously, like can you just do it right now? So I was like praying. I was just thanking the Lord for like Kilby and Greg's health and Alma and because we didn't know if they would ever be able to have a kid even so like pray through that Pray for Tucker, and was thankful and just went through so much stuff and it was just like a wash of that emotion was just gone. So it's like teaching them to be, you know, thankful and grateful, because it just does wonders to your spirit and they just need to be thankful.
Speaker 3:Because it's not natural.
Speaker 4:Not for the bonus that you get with it, but just being thankful.
Speaker 3:It seems to not come natural for them. No, so we do have. That's something we drill is Thanksgiving.
Speaker 4:And they're getting better.
Speaker 3:They are, yeah, yeah, they're expressing it, yeah. So yeah, I think the things that courage, honor, work, ethic, commitment, finish what you start, you know there's that.
Speaker 2:And then relationally love, gentleness, thankfulness, preferring the other person, you know it's the things that scripture lays out for the believer yeah, yeah, you guys definitely have an interesting dynamic of, like you know, you have three that are out of the house and then three that are still in the house. Um, so, just as you've gone like going through these new seasons, how has your parenting style like changed? Like, what does that look like?
Speaker 4:yeah, it's drastically changed Because our first three they're just a complete different species than our younger three Because they're highly trauma-brained all three of them. So it's like we just naturally thought, oh, we'll just handle them the same way we handled Kilby and Tucker and Lely, and there's a vast amount of just difference in how you do really most everything, a softer feel to a lot of it, some stuff you allow that you wouldn't have ever thought you'd allow with you know your other three and it's like a yeah, it's been very humbling.
Speaker 3:There's times where we felt and I definitely have felt like, oh, I'm compromising, I'm being a pushover, I should not let him talk to me like that, or I should not let her do that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, because innately you're like, okay, this is wrong, but yeah, it's like. It's definitely like been a different dependence on the Lord with like discernment and wisdom, with how to handle stuff. Yeah, we could talk about this for days.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that could be its own. Maybe sometime we could do another episode on that, because I think when people are questioning people praying about adopting or fostering, there are things that I think would be helpful to know that we've learned the hard way at times, but it is completely different. Principles are the same. We want to provide love and nurture and caring. Want to provide love and nurture and caring, but when they're coming from a background of trauma, as they all three are, um, and we didn't cause any of that trauma, but we're the ones that god has called to help them learn to navigate that, the healing and the strength that can come out of it. It's pressed us to to you. You know, you realize what you don't know, what you don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even just like times have changed, like from when Kilby and Tuck and Laila were growing up to now when they are like technology and I'm sure that's just yeah, a lot to handle Technology, and I'm sure that's just a lot to handle. What is y'all's?
Speaker 3:approach on how much you share with your kids concerning hard family decisions or personal struggles. I have a word picture that this is not going to answer exactly because it varies from situation to situation, what we might share with them, what we might not. But I remember hearing a pastor talk about this years ago where if you took your child and your child was three or four years old and you took them out, I think about we took Kilby and Tuck when they were real little, we backpacked in on Big Snowbird and I was carrying one of them in a backpack carrier and the other one on my shoulders and we hiked in five miles and Little had all of our gear in her backpack. And so we're carrying everything. And then a few years later, we did the trip and each of them carried a small backpack and walked themselves and their backpack had their, their food, was it? We're carrying all the? And then if, if you then fast forward that to their teenagers. Now everyone's carrying their own weight, but I'm navigating the trip so as they mature and advance and progress, they get more weight put into their backpack. They get more responsibility for their journey. It's like that in life. It's like there are some things that they're not ready to carry the weight of. So we're going to carry that weight. But then, as they mature and grow older, it's about the transfer of more and more weight and responsibility that we lay on them and and so they feel the weight of, of certain family decisions or and there are some things that are thrust on you, like the debt, like when little's dad died. You know they lost their granddad. Well, you don't get to not navigate that with them. So how do you have those conversations?
Speaker 3:I remember, um, I have a nephew whose father was killed when my nephew was about three. And I remember a well-intentioned, well-meaning family member saying to this three-year-old kid your daddy's gone because Jesus wanted your daddy to come be with him. Well, all I did was tell this three-year-old kid well, why'd Jesus take my daddy away? He's selfish, he's my dad. Why does Jesus have anything he wants? Why has he got my dad? And I remember thinking, oh, that needs to be reworded. And I went and sat down with that kid and explained we live in a world that's broken and fallen and people die and daddies get killed and it's terrible and it was not God's design, because it was not his design, but it happened. Anyway, he made a way for us to be able to get through it. It's because he loves us.
Speaker 3:And then you know, so thinking how do we navigate difficult situations? Cause there's some things you can't keep them from having to bear. And our three younger kids, we can't keep them from having to bear the memories of abuse physical abuse or drugs in the home, or abandonment, and pain and hunger, and but we can help them learn how to navigate the healing of that. And so I don't think it's a, I don't think it's a black and white, cut and dry answer. It's constantly figuring out how to help them navigate each season A lot of prayer.
Speaker 4:I just pray the Lord and hope, just like give me a peace one way or the other. I do think it's always been really a sweet time with my kids. When I do make space for them to see the Lord work, or where I do have to apologize or ask for forgiveness for something. It's always a sweet time stuff like that. It's always a sweet time stuff like that Just letting them know of needs in my life or in somebody's life, just creating that space for them to realize that, and then just watch what the Lord does and how he's faithful and then walking them through that, and then the contentment of just how we respond has a lot to do with how we're content with what the Lord did or not, if the circumstance changed for the better, but how we responded to it.
Speaker 4:That's where our contentment can be. And walking them through that it's been big, but yeah, just praying through all that.
Speaker 3:Lots of prayer. Yeah, that's through all that. Lots of prayer, yeah, that's an important principle. I think people, you feel this sense of well, I've handled this kid in this situation this way, so I have to make sure I'm consistent. Consistency doesn't mean you handle every situation with each kid the same way. Train up a child Proverbs 22.6,. Train up a child in the way he should go. The idea is understand how your kids wired and bent and and the complexities of that human being. How are they going to learn? How are they going to respond? Um, and, as a parent, apply biblical principles to how you discipline, raise, instruct, teach. But understand that each kid's different and there's uniqueness to how you might navigate certain things One kid you know we've got. Some of our kids are so strong and independent minded and then others are very fragile in the way that they navigate conflict and so just understanding the difference.
Speaker 2:Somebody asked any tips for parenting strong-willed toddlers.
Speaker 4:I remember telling Austin and his wife Tara they had just had Mila, and I think Austin was like asking me little, you got any tips? Or something like that. And I remember just saying, well, like the terrible twos are usually terrible because that kid's will probably could have already been broke before that. But the parents have kind of thought it was cute when they're disobeying and all of a sudden they're two and it's not cute anymore. So like just just being like really in tune with the first time. You see that like that rare head and that will just like showing itself like you know, not just turn them over and give them a spanking, but however it needs to be handled, just addressing it and like starting to work through you know some obedience and stuff. So that, yeah, I think I think when they're two is just when it gets ugly, but it's could have already been going before that. So yeah, I would say like just really being observant early on, like before they're a toddler.
Speaker 3:What is a toddler like two, two, three? Yeah, I think two to three. I have two funny memories of you with, one with Kilby, one with Juju. Kilby was still in a hot chair. It's the first time he ever disciplined her. And we were in our little table in that little rock house that we moved out of the cabin into when she was, when you were having her, we lived in. We moved from that cabin with no running water into a little 700 square foot 100 year old little house that we rented for $250 a month and lived there for a decade until Kilby was 10. But I remember she's in her high chair, I'm across the table, you're feeding her and I don't remember what she did. She wanted something but she exerted herself and I remember I had looked down, I heard and I was like I looked over there and remember her.
Speaker 3:She got those big old eyes anyway, her eyes are so big and bulgy, you know, and her eyes were and this is a 10 11 month old baby sitting in a high chair, and her eyes were like I felt like they're big as bowling balls. And then I don't remember how she responded after that, but I know things changed that day and then I remember juju.
Speaker 3:You know we got juju. She's four and she'd never been in a. She never had a bath that you know they would. They would just sponge bathe and they didn't have running water and and she, you know, she grew. She came out of a third world context.
Speaker 3:I remember Little had put about that much bath water and it was warm, warm bath water. Everything is over sensory. She had been in there for an hour. It was like no, it's time to get out and go to bed. I heard Little in there saying it's time to get out of the tub and go to bed. She said something. She had the thick accent. She said no, mama.
Speaker 3:And I heard three swats on the butt and it was like the attitude was adjusted. She marched out of there. It's just three quick swats on the rear end. But there is, parenting takes courage and if you think it's cute for a toddler to exert their will over you, wait until they're a six-foot-tall 16-year-old. Now's not the time to get into the how-tos of all of that, but I would just say have courage and address it, because it's going to be harder to address later than it is when they're two or three. That was a funny in this whole thing that that was a question that came at the end. How do we deal with our toddler? Why do you've got one boy chasing the other one with a hunting knife around the yard?
Speaker 4:That was last week. That was last week.
Speaker 2:That was last week Courtney Williams asks craziest Lailie Mae story.
Speaker 3:There's a lot.
Speaker 4:Lailie Mae's, our 19-year-old or 18, going to be 19.
Speaker 3:She's going to be 19 soon. My favorite Lailie Mae story I have two. One is a broken arm and a split chin. My mom was over here and Laillee was about seven, maybe, maybe younger, she might have been five, but they were going up and down the loft and my mom said, okay, I want to know when she falls and breaks her arm. She said something like that. My mom wasn't like don't let her be climbing on that ladder, because my mom raised a family. She was more laughing, like okay, I want to know. When you end up in the ER and like two days later we hear a crash and Lailie had broken her arm and split her chin and we're at the ER. I remember sending my mom a picture.
Speaker 3:But my favorite Lailie Mae story of, like crazy, she loves to cliff jump, from the time she was seven or eight she would jump off really high stuff into the lake and that's one of our family's favorite outings is to go cliff jumping, swimming, these really cool places, and we were at nana halo lake. We're on a camp, we were in the pontoon and we're out at the cliffs. You know what I'm story I'm telling. There's a bunch of boys that were not from here they were. They were out at the cliffs. You know what I'm story I'm telling. There's a bunch of boys that were not from here. They were.
Speaker 3:They were there on the lake vacation and and it was about five or six guys that looked to be probably about 20 years old and it's about the water level was down, it's about a 40 foot cliff, and they were all trying to get their nerve up to jump off of it. And Laylee was probably 12. And she dove out of our boat, swam it's 200 feet deep Swam to the rock, climbed up the cliff and I said, hey, if you boys will move out of the way, my little girl's going to jump off that cliff. And they're like huh, and they backed up and they didn't know she was behind them. She runs, splits those five or six guys and launches off that, just like this, you know, hits the water and every one of those dudes jumped within the next 20 seconds you know that was one of my favorites.
Speaker 4:Mine's, probably our family went to these waterfalls and I think maybe Tuck caught a big old crawdad. And, like the thing with Lely is you could say we all do the thing. What's the least amount of money you would take to do this or do that? And laylee will always be like no money and she'll just do it and she will do about anything. And um, somebody says, somebody eat that, and you know, everybody's like no way, tucker's like no, and laylee just walks over there and grabs it, puts in her and just starts chewing it and everybody's freaking out and then she shows it that it chewed up on her tongue and then swallows it and Tucker's over there about to just have a heart attack. He's grossing out. But yeah, she just did it. We have a video of it somewhere.
Speaker 3:I love that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good one. Yeah, going back to that cast story, this is kind of gross. But leigh told me that you made her a big old steak. Yes, to make her feel better, like cut up pieces of steak and leigh ate it all. And then that night she woke up and threw up the steak and it got inside of her cast. Yeah, it was awful, she.
Speaker 4:So I heard a commotion and she, I saw her. I heard it come right out of her room. Well, she tried to keep it, you know. So she started puking. She did this. Well, it went right down. So I was gagging, I couldn't get it out. I had a I don't know if I made you, but it was still. You couldn't get it. So she only had to wear it two weeks and we go and they're taking it off and the lady's like man, this has a really rancid smell to it and I'm like Decomposing the steak it was awful, that's so funny.
Speaker 2:Because, she loves steaks I'd made her a steak, I remember, for her 15th birthday. Instead of a birthday cake, it was a big T-bone steak with a one and a five candle in it. I have a picture of that on my phone so great.
Speaker 3:Last year, when she was a senior, she didn't. She had dual enrolled, so she would. She'd have to go to school. So every day I would, we would work out together. We'd go to the gym about 11. I would go to work work from eight to 11, meet her at the gym. We would do a workout together. Come home and I mean three or four days a week I'd grill us some steaks, because you can buy these little mini ribeyes or you get them from go grocery for pretty cheap and, uh, we would split one. For lunch we'd split a ribeye. So fun, fun.
Speaker 2:Well, sweet. That's just about all the questions we have, Unless you guys have any more. Any thoughts?
Speaker 3:You have thoughts? Nope, nothing, mm-mm. You did good, mom, my brain's fried.
Speaker 2:I know we just grilled y'all for two hours.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just say for everybody that's listening that's going to come to the marriage retreat. I just say for everybody that's listening that's going to come to the marriage retreat we're excited for folks to come and it is to be able to share what the Lord's laid out in scripture for how to how to honor him in our marriages. But I think the the the one thing that I think would be like a banner over all of this is that we were created for God's glory and whether your work, in your work or your hobby, your sports, your academics if you're a kid, your career if you're a professional, I would say especially for mothers, because I see a lot of moms with small kids sort of idolize their children. I think this is something that's easy to do. I do see so many moms, especially, find their identity in their children. I think this is something that's easy to do. See so many moms, especially, um, find their identity in their children. Dads will find their identity in their kids, sports performance or dads will find their identity in their work or whatever it's like.
Speaker 3:If we can remember that my children don't give me my identity, my spouse doesn't, my work doesn't. It's like I was created for God's glory. My work fits into that work that he's doing in't. My work doesn't. It's like I was created for God's glory. My work fits into that work that he's doing in me. My marriage fits into that work he's doing in me. My parenting fits into that. Ultimately, one day I'm going to stand before the Lord and give an account for how I've lived my life, and probably the biggest component of that for married people is going to be what kind of husband was I? What kind of wife was I? If marriage is a reflection of the gospel, if it's a shadow of the reality of our relationship with Christ, then every single day I'm living for God's glory in the way that I live as a husband or a wife. And then, on the other side of that, the other thing I would say, the last thing I would say, is you're going to mess it up a lot.
Speaker 3:You're going to mess it up a lot, and that's where we have to have grace for one another and just know your best day of marriage. You're going to make mistakes and God's grace is sufficient for you, and your grace needs to be sufficient for your spouse, and don't set expectations on them that the Lord doesn't set for them in your life, and just choose to be joyful and happy and thankful and live your life in a way that honors the Lord.
Speaker 2:Sweet, I think that's it.
Speaker 3:Good.
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