No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
Finding A Voice For This Generation
Who are you listening to? Why does finding a voice matter? Who are the voices of this generation of Christians?
In this episode, Brody sits down with Jon Rouleau to discuss how influential voices for Christians have changed from generation to generation. They dive into the importance of finding faithful voices to speak into your life, and give some of their own recommendations.
Another Gospel by Alisa Childers
The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer
Iron on Iron: Youth Ministry Conference
Be Strong: Snowbird Men's Conference
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Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.
Hey, welcome to no Sanity Required. This week I sat down with John Rouleau and we talked about a little bit of everything. We talked about some things as they relate to culture, church culture, pop culture, the world of academia and LGBTQ whatever you want to call it movement. We got into some weeds. We just kind of went all over the place. It was a good time we started talking. We were planning on talking through the details, kind of getting into some weeds. We just kind of went all over the place. It was a good time. We started talking. We were planning on talking through the details, kind of getting into some of the background to his breakout session that he taught this summer called Love is Love.
Speaker 1:And when we were kind of warming up, getting ready to start talking, we were just kind of chatting over a cup of coffee and the conversation started going in a direction I didn't expect it to go in talking about voices, influential voices, and pastors and authors and who is this generation listening to. And it was so interesting I just said, hey, throw on your headset and let me start recording. So it starts kind of. It's kind of an odd on ramp where we pick the conversation up, but I think. I think you'll be able to come up to speed pretty quick and just come along for the ride. Come along for the conversation. We had a good time. We talked for a couple hours. We'll edit this down into a manageable listening length. But welcome to. No Sanity Required.
Speaker 2:Welcome to no Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters. A podcast about the Bible, culture and stories from around the globe. Welcome to no Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters a podcast about the Bible culture and stories from around the globe.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's just jump right into this. I'm going to literally it's going to sound like you're coming into a conversation mid-sentence, which you kind of are, because this initial conversation was not what we had set out to talk about, but I just I thought it'd be something that would be helpful for folks to hear. So jump into the conversation, catch up as you can. I'm going to be bringing you some more of this type of content. As we've we've said over the last few weeks, I'm going to be sitting down with Zach Mabry next week and and we'll bring you some similar content from a breakout session he did on deconstruction and apostasy within the church, within Christian circles. I hope you find this insightful and maybe it'll be a little bit thought-provoking for you.
Speaker 1:What started the conversation was I read you an email that I got from a student pastor who is just barren as soul because of some stuff they're going through in their student ministry some calamity, some tragedy, some loss and it's just one of the things that stands out to me is, I think people that follow NSR as a podcast and that are connected to Snowbird, they feel genuinely personally connected to us and I want that. I want that. I want people to feel like we're reachable, attainable, they can talk to us. And I and I want that to I like, I want that. I want people to feel like we're reachable, attainable, they can talk to us. But it's it, it. It's a different time. Right now, there seems to be a void when it comes to the types of influences you and I had 20 years ago. So so you were just sharing, walk through, like okay, start in that we were both at Liberty I, I was there a little before you.
Speaker 3:I think what I was saying is, you know, when I, when I was at Liberty, there was quite a few evangelical, orthodox Christians that you know a broad spectrum of theological beliefs, could say, oh, you know, I could listen to them, or we're kind of all on the same team, whether it was, you know, um, like Ravi Zacharias, mark Driscoll, you know John Piper, and then maybe you had like a Greg Laurie or, um, an Irwin McManus, that whole passion movement. Yeah, the passion movement, exactly the passion movement which you know, in the passion movement was Lou Giglio and Andy Stanley. I mean, you know the passion movement birthed out of that church. You know what I mean. And so there was just such a broad spectrum of voices and leaders that you could assume at the core of their belief system. We were all on the same page. And you know, you kind of I'm obviously a little bit older now and you know you're just kind of in the thrust of ministry.
Speaker 3:You know, this season I think I call it the COVID season, because I think COVID is such a marker of so many things that were happening in our country where you kind of felt, you know, not only a political shift, but you felt in the church. There was shifts there. People were kind of taking sides, or you know, however you want to. You know, however you want to say that.
Speaker 3:And now, you know, I was just sitting there, I was talking with a couple of guys recently and I just thought to myself for this younger generation you know, we that are they're no longer interns, they're a little bit older, they're kind of on the cusp of going into their own ministry. I mean, several of these guys can go out and start being student pastors right now and they're on the beginning stages. And I think to myself, who do they listen to? Who are their guys? And I even asked them and a lot of times it's like they don't have guys were their guys and I even asked them and a lot of times it's like they don't have guys. And I find it so interesting because there seems to be this lack of void and I think a lot of the guys that I think maybe had more influence, they glossed a little bit of their influence because of some of the positions that they they took and maybe they didn't course correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll just say it I'll say this guys, like the guy in doubt, the dallas guy chandler matt chandler, matt chandler, david platt, wrote that radical book 15 years ago or whenever it was, and everybody was reading it and it was revolutionary and groundbreaking. The same way, you know, a lot of people know piper's desiring god book was the one that kind of put him on a bigger map. But his don't waste your life book synced up with the passion movement. Yeah, that came out like oh four, you know, and passion's five years old at that point, six years old and all of that. That it was movements of the college to 30 year old crowd. Yes, and now, yeah, if I hear what you're saying is that they don't seem to be like if you go back to when you first started bringing students to Snowbird 2006. Was it six? Does that sound?
Speaker 3:right, yeah, somewhere. Four to six somewhere around there.
Speaker 1:Four, five, six, all those years you came for like a three, four-year stretch there. That was when Piper had really established himself as the guy that the young reformed dudes were listening to and reading. And then Driscoll exploded. And Driscoll's background was that he had started with the emergent movement with a guy named Donald Miller who wrote Blue Like Jazz, you remember that and Rob Bell.
Speaker 3:All those guys were kind of in the emergent movement and driscoll, thank the lord, broke away from it early and started the act there were several guys that kind of broke because I think, if I remember, if I recall correctly, that movement originally was a conversation of man. The way that we do church is not reaching a younger generation. So we should figure out how to make adjustments in how we do church. And you know, a lot of us have experienced that it's the ticky-tack things that happen where people are, you know, arguing over carpet color or you know, I don't want to get lost in the weeds, but that was a conversation. I think that part was a healthy part and then it moved into—.
Speaker 1:That was in the 90s.
Speaker 3:It was in the late 90s, even into the 2000s. And then it was some people in that movement Rob Bell, brian McLaren decided well, it's not just how we do church, it's actually rooted in our theology. And then a lot of those guys kind of broke away from that. You know one of the guys that I still respect, dan Kimball. He's a pastor out in California, santa Cruz, I think. Maybe I'm Santa Barbara somewhere out there, but he's written a ton of incredible books and you know he was a part of that and he kind of was like nope, that's not what this is about, you know. And there's a lot of guys that kind of broke away, said, nah, you know, I, you know we're still historical orthodox christians yeah, because mclaren interrupt you.
Speaker 1:Mclaren wrote a book called a generous orthodox yeah, or a new kind of christian.
Speaker 3:I think there's.
Speaker 1:Those are two titles those were his two books new kind of christian and generous orthodoxy. And if you don't know what the word orthodoxy means, it basically is a word that describes the historic, doctrinally integral beliefs of the Christian church and then the functionings of how the church is to work. So orthodoxy just means right thinking.
Speaker 3:Right and we call it historical because kind of the accountability there is for multiple generations. You could look back at these essential doctrines and beliefs and say, hey, these are the majors. Everybody that's on our team agrees with these majors. You know what I mean. And then you had guys like you know, rob Bell, when he wrote his I forget the name.
Speaker 1:Before Love Wins, was it Love Wins?
Speaker 3:I think Love Wins, and maybe I can't remember, but there's one about hell yes, and, and it was all of a sudden, there was elvis elvis.
Speaker 1:Elvis elvis was the first rob bell and and it.
Speaker 3:You know when you, when you read it, you were like, oh wait, you know he's calling into question, maybe not directly, directly, but indirectly, you know. And that's where it was like, oh, he's caught. It was this kind of coming out party of I'm on a new team and at first it was. No, I'm not, you know, I'm just asking questions. And sure enough, as we see, historically, that's where it led.
Speaker 1:I mean, and he, eventually, he's now a full blown heretic.
Speaker 3:Well, sure, and if you go, if you look, even you know I know woke is a very broad term A lot of things get thrown into that and it's hard to because there's not a specifically defined. But you know, brian McLaren is really a leader in that movement and he was that movement prior. You know postmodernism and deconstruction. Brian McLaren was doing that in the late 90s. He was a postmodernist. People were actually calling him out. It kind of died a little bit and then it kind of had this rebirth. But you will find his name and some other names associated and so it's not a surprise. That movement, you know, obviously historically there's always been. You know attacks on the orthodox theological positions of Christianity. You know what I mean. So that's not nothing new. It just gets repackaged. But you know, I think what we were talking about is, if you're a young man now, you know who's your guy?
Speaker 3:And I know, you know, a lot of times we'll refer to an older generation, you know, and but I'm like for the young guys, these are not their guys. And so I think it's really interesting right now because you have, uh, you have this new progressive movement that has risen up in the church and a lot of the, a lot of our um publishing organizations. You know Christianity Today. You know a lot of the specific publishers. You see how that has infiltrated and it all was in the name of this like new kind of unity. But if you're not united around you know Orthodox theology, then you're really not united at all. And so now there's like a whole new movement of speakers and voices that I was like man one.
Speaker 3:I would never tell anybody to read any of those people, but I think to myself, who would I tell them? So I do think that there is a little bit of a void out there of voices that I would say, hey, I think you could trust and listen to this sermon, listen to that sermon, even if we don't agree on the exact majors. You know what I mean. We're on the exact majors. You know what I mean we're, we're on the same team and, um, I've had to be really cautious with that and I think that's, you know, the Lord's given us favor.
Speaker 1:Where we are, we are that voice for a lot of people. I get I hear that a lot that people really hold on to the teaching content we put out on the snowbird teaching podcast. It's a good call to accountability for us because there's like this awareness of we're not just preaching to a group of students in this building or at our men's conference next month. When you stand up and preach to those men, when I stand up and preach to those men, it's not going to be confined to this room. There's 500 men in this room, but this content is going to be posted and it's going to be passed around and listened to thousands of times. So the Lord has given us.
Speaker 1:We're not that big national or even international voice that those guys you're mentioning were for us, but I do think the Lord's given us a lot of favor and I just want to steward that well and I do think the sky's the limit on how far our reach could go. Sure, you know, but I want to use this platform to point out, if we could just take a little time and I'd like to we haven't pre-gamed or scripted this. We've sat down here to talk about other things, and this is where the conversation ended up going, so I just hit record.
Speaker 3:Always happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is great. Yeah, Because you got a cup of coffee. I got a cup of coffee. This is literally hey, grab a cup of coffee, let's sit down and start talking and see where it goes Shout out Morning Fog If you ever come to Andrew's new place amazing. Morning Fog and if they're closed you can come by my house to the.
Speaker 3:Morning Smog baby.
Speaker 1:Folgers, soldier's, in your cup now.
Speaker 3:Let's go.
Speaker 1:This morning I had a root canal, then I went and cold plunged with Little in the Nantahala Gorge. It's been an up and down day. Here we are with some morning fog or, as our staff is starting to refer to it, morning frog. Yeah, but I think we just started talking. I'm like, oh, I'm going to hit record on this, because I'd like to name some names of folks that we recommend that people read and or listen to. And maybe it's not specific names, maybe it's more like hey, here's what you're looking for, and then I'm gonna go out on them and say why there's some people that that I'd just be wary of. You know what I mean and can I?
Speaker 3:just I want to encourage if there's people out. I'm just going to share a little bit of how I've felt in the last like 10 years and maybe it encourages other people. You know, sometimes I have felt like the culture has in the Christian evangelical world has been moving more and more progressive. You know, theologically a little bit more liberal. You know theologically a little bit more liberal, now separate from politics, if you understand liberal theology, progressive theology, and that is almost becoming the standard. And if you've just kind of stayed you know where you were, an Orthodox Christian, you have kind of these set beliefs. You know it's almost as if now in the, you know, in our culture in general, you've been branded like ultra conservative or you're far right or whatever it is whatever, whatever these, whatever these uh, the language is to to kind of to marginalize to marginalize, you, degrade, you, make you feel like stereotype, stereotype you and stuff.
Speaker 3:And and I just and I think a part of this is I just want to encourage those of you who are out there. I've really, you know, in this last season I've kind of had to in a sense reevaluate and I'm never going to be one of those guys that's going on Twitter calling this person out, this thing, oh, you know, and that's just not who I am and my personality. But I have found more of a comfort to say, no, I don't believe that. No, this is what I believe. The Bible says, this is what's. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:And kind of taking a stand for, you know, historical Orthodox Christianity and saying, hey, there are other people out here, there's still, there's still a large group of individuals that hold fast to this teaching of scripture. You know what I mean and and it's okay to have those beliefs, you know I can't believe you have to say that you know what I mean. But you feel, when you see so many of these other guys and you're like you know, and so I don't know, I don't know if that's an encouragement to anybody out there, a lot I think one thing we've seen with our college retreats and our college conferences and then training our college age staff is a lot of young believers in that young adult bracket 18 to 25, they need permission to stick to the core doctrines of the faith.
Speaker 3:Because as the culture moves more and more to the left, more and more progressive, it's going to feel like you are a fish out of the water if you just hold on to. You know right thinking.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm yeah, and they need to feel the freedom to do that and that you don't have to. If you hold to those things a literal view of hell, the virgin birth, a biblical view of marriage, the sanctity of marriage, sanctity of life yes, you hold to those things. You don't have to, you don't have to beat anybody up with that, those beliefs just hold to them just stand fast and be willing to to to weather some storms and be anchored to the truth and don't be scared.
Speaker 1:I mean, look, the case study in front of us right now is the United Methodist Church that has completely abandoned 100% abandoned the faith, and they are led by people who are influenced, I believe, by, at the very least, the world yes, but but, but maybe at the, at even a greater degree, the devil. Yeah, I believe they're under demonic influence, because anytime you start to say did god really say? Who's the first person that ever asked?
Speaker 3:that question right did god really?
Speaker 1:say yeah he did. It's okay to say yeah he did. It's okay to say yes he did he did say marriage is defined and described and laid out in Scripture it's a man and it's a woman committing to each other for life. And so I think I want people to feel encouraged to take a stand, and you don't have to be a jerk about it, just be solid, yes, be confident, be loving, but uncompromising, unwavering, um the are there people that you read or listen to that you would recommend for for folks, not just young folks, but who are the people that you read and listen?
Speaker 3:to I mean okay, so I'm, I'm probably not, I'm probably not the best, um, because she listened to a lot of secular guys.
Speaker 3:Well, not not just that, but I've been. I, so I, I I've read and listened to a ton of Nancy Piercy, so I kind of get on these kicks. And so I I've taken two classes. Uh, the last two semesters I've taken a class with her. I'm reading all of her material. You know she wrote one of the best books I've ever read on gender Love Thy Body. If you haven't read that and you have any questions, it's such an incredible book. She's a Francis Schaeffer disciple, and so I've listened to a ton of her stuff. I'm going to say this name wrong. It's another woman, a podcast that I found, elisa Childress.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so this was several years ago. Somebody had passed me her podcast and so I don't even listen to a podcast a ton. But I found several of her podcasts really interesting because at the same time I was asking some of these questions she wrote a book about her experience where her pastor had gone from Orthodox Christianity to progressive and didn't tell everybody and try to trick everybody in her congregation. She got caught up in that and it's kind of her experience. She's more of an apologetist now and so she kind of kind of talks through that. So I was so fascinated that I listened to it and then I kind of got stuck on her podcast. She brings a ton of great people.
Speaker 3:Um, I listened to, uh and read John Mark Comer. You know uh quite a bit. I've read a ton of his books. I really appreciate it. I was a West Coast guy, you know. Again, I lived in Los Angeles, california, for almost 10 years and you know uh, the some of the, the celebrity church world you know, the rich Wilkerson's and the Judah Smith guy and Chad Veach, those those are like the popular voices and that just uh wasn't my cup of tea and style. And the first time I heard John Mark Homer. I was like, oh, this is a Bible guy.
Speaker 1:It comes through.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it comes through. And then I read Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. I've read like four or five of his books and every one he just. I respect anybody that respects the scriptures and so he would just go to the scriptures, go to the scriptures, go to the scriptures.
Speaker 1:He's faithful, he's very faithful, he's very faithful that respects the scriptures, and so he would just go to the scriptures, go to the scriptures, go to the scriptures, and so he's faithful, he's very faithful, he's very faithful.
Speaker 3:And if you've ever listened to me, you know that I am really fascinated with cultural apologetics and I think he is one of the best at taking the scriptures, exegeting a passage and kind of helping you understand where it fits in the context of culture. And he'll also exegete and critique the culture. You know, live by, live no lies. Yeah, live no lies. That whole book, you know it's basically, you know, if you've been a youth pastor, you've given that sermon so many times and I I just loved it because the simplicity of it. But he was taking the scripture and so he's another one let me.
Speaker 1:Let me say one thing about him. Um, he gets lumped in with the emergent they're no longer called emergent, but the progressive guys because he, he speaks in sort of the same tone of voice, a lot of the same vibe. And I came to you and I said, okay, little's reading John Mark Comer, she's reading her second book. I did the first one just to check it. You know, hey, what am I allowing into my home here? You know, like, is this okay? And and it all resonated good.
Speaker 1:But there was something that that didn't sit good with me and I asked you and you gave me one short answer that clarified it all. You said, well, what you're feeling is, um, the friction, because he's a, he's a pacifist, and I appreciated you saying that because it was like I could take a step back and go okay, he's a pacifist, I'm not a pacifist in that sense. I'm feeling that friction, that is not theological friction in the way that, and so it really helped me get over and kind of get past the fact that something didn't sit right with me sometimes, the way he would word things, and once I had that sort of category then, when I would be listening because I listened to his books when I would get to a point where I would go. That sounded. I don't know something about that. I didn't like the way that and it's like, oh wait, he's coming from a little bit of a different angle yes, and you know, I I went to Liberty.
Speaker 3:I got saved right before I went to Liberty. So I go to Liberty and your theology is shaped in different ways by different people. The thing I loved about Liberty is you have such an influx of people that come from so many different backgrounds. One of the things that it really taught me is you know what are the historical Orthodox theological positions that we hold fast to, that these are the majors. And then what are some of the minors that, hey, we're not on the same page over here, but we're on the same team here. And to learn how to listen to guys that you can, you know, eat the watermelon and spit out the seeds if that makes sense, and it's still. It's still encouraging. And for me, just to be honest, can you know, eat the watermelon and spit out the seeds if that makes sense, and it's still encouraging. And for me, just to be honest, you know, even before I dive into somebody's theological positions, I mean, one of the first litmus tests for me is you know, are they a Bible guy?
Speaker 1:And how would you know what are you looking for? To help you identify that.
Speaker 3:So, you know, a lot of times you listen to these pockets, they don't ever reference scripture or you can tell that they are. They're referencing scriptures. You know, when you go to those leadership conferences that are not labeled Christian but the guy on the platform you're like man, that's, he's just, that's, that's scripture, that's scripture. But they're not saying it because they're in a secular room. Well, a lot of times that has turned into people are afraid to kind of teach the word or whatever, or they've moved away from even exegeting the scriptures. And so if somebody has a high view of scripture, they believe in the authority of scripture and the inerrant word of God, and then we disagree on some other thing. You know, that's okay, cause we have a starting point. Does that make sense? So that's a big one for me. You know, if I'm, if somebody recommends a podcast, you know and I'm listening, but they're, they're not referencing the scriptures. I don't know what their reference point is. You know I'm, that's a big one for me. There's a guy.
Speaker 1:I'm looking this up while you're talking. There's a guy I couldn't remember his name so I had to look it up. His name is Victor Marks and Victor Marks was uh. I mean, his website is victormarkscom. I'm not giving him a shout out or an endorsement. The tagline on the front of his website is Setting Captives Free Physically, emotionally and Spiritually, and you can read what we do.
Speaker 1:Victor Mark's background was that he was abused as a kid severe abuse. He turned to. I think he was molested at age five and left in a commercial cooler to die. He endured a childhood marked with physical and sexual abuse, multiple stepfathers, 14 schools, 17 different homes. It's a crazy story. Have you ever heard of him? Fascinating story. Okay, then he goes, he turns to martial arts and then he ends up in the military. I think he ended up in special operations, some sort of special forces, and he's a guy that now speaks in the military. I think he ended up special operations, some sort of special forces, um, and he's a guy that now speaks and he would not come across first and foremost as a preacher or an evangelical. He would come across as sort of a life coach. You would, you would make him a contemporary of a Sean Ryan, but somewhere between Sean Ryan and Jordan Peterson. But when you listen to Marks you realize I don't know how sound his doctrine is, but he loves the Lord and he's faithful to proclaim Christ. So I think Victor Marks I'm not saying is a guy that people need to go listen to, although I think he's very interesting and his story's interesting. But he's a good example of somebody who go listen to it. If there's Bible in there, it's going to come through.
Speaker 1:And he's a guy that said I think I sent you this. He's telling stories. He's got this canine dog. It's like a combat therapy dog. It used to be a canine combat dog and it's like one of those Malinois. And he's walking through the airport and it says do not touch on the things. You know on the things vest or whatever. And this lady walks up to it and says oh, that dog is so beautiful, can I pet you, can I pet? And he's like, yeah, sure, and she's petting him.
Speaker 1:And the there's a guy with her and he's he's he looks a little different. And he goes to pet him and victor marks goes oh, I wouldn't do that if I was you. And the guy says why? And he said because he doesn't like men. And the guy gets real offended. He says how dare you misgender me, basically? And he says excuse me. And he said you don't have the right to assume that I'm a man. And the guy just kind of goes off on him. And so Victor Marks goes well, man. And the guy just kind of goes off on him and so victor marks goes well.
Speaker 2:Why don't you go ahead and pet him, and we'll let him decide what gender you are.
Speaker 1:You know, that's one of my favorite little clips ever, but he's a guy that I think I think on the other side of this, there are a lot of voices emerging that resonate with people, and I would just say people need to be careful that they don't draw their theology from guys like that. Sean Ryan's another one. Sean Ryan's one of the biggest podcasters behind Rogan. Sean Ryan just had Donald Trump on this past week and he's you know, theo Vaughn had Trump and now Sean Ryan had Trump, and so those voices are getting louder and louder and Sean Ryan made a profession of faith. Those voices are getting louder and louder and Sean Ryan made a profession of faith a year ago.
Speaker 1:But here's what I would say yes, don't get your theology from Sean Ryan. Listen to him, be encouraged. He has awesome people on there that he interviews. Some of them are believers, some of them are not. It's just, we have so much information and I remember when Ravi Zacharias was at the height of his ministry, when the Internet was becoming so mainstream in the mid-2000s and I got my first ever MP3 player.
Speaker 1:You could download sermons onto this little MP3-type player and I would take that and put it in my pocket and go on a mountain bike ride and listen to a robbie zacharias sermon or lecture. And that was when, I think when when content distribution became so mainstream. Because, okay, listen, go back to late 90s, early 2000s, when we were listening to guys. We were listening to them either on the radio or on CDs that you ordered or cassettes that you ordered, and all of the content was sermon content. People weren't sitting doing what we're doing right here.
Speaker 3:I was literally my brain was like man the podcast world, pre-podcast. It was Christianity that kind of dominated that market, dominated that space.
Speaker 1:Because it was.
Speaker 3:Christian radio that you would turn on am radio or whatever radio and you would get, you'd get sermons right. Or you know ravi zacharys in the apologetics world, you know what I mean. But you didn't have joe rogan, jordan peterson's, huberman's, you know. Or even even like tony robbins, you would go to the if you the leadership guys, it was like go to my conference and pay $500. You know what I mean. But now that is, you know, the Theo Vons, that content is dominating.
Speaker 3:And for me I just was making a simple observation I'm like man in the Christian world, you know. I think, because of this shift that has happened in our world, a little bit more shift to the left as far as theologically, that there's not a lot of platforms or voices that are being elevated in that world, whether you know whether it's reformed theology or non-reformed. But you're like, okay, they're, they're still. You know they're teaching an Orthodox theology. We might disagree on a few points here. You know, a lot of times when I talk to guys, they're, you know they're throwing out, you know, a John MacArthur, an Alistair Begg. God bless those guys.
Speaker 1:They're very old. Yeah, I'm saying a lot of young people are not going to listen to right a john macarthur sherman. He he comes across as a little bit grouchy, very firm I love it sure I love him I love listen to alistair beg, but not many students.
Speaker 3:But I'm just saying, when you're in your 20s and you're looking to guys, you know, I remember when I was in my 20s it you know some of the guys that were listened to the, the Mark Driscoll's, the Rob.
Speaker 1:Bell's, he captivated everybody yeah.
Speaker 3:It was because they they were. They were a little bit older and you were kind of aspiring to kind of okay, I want you know I'm following in some of these guys' footsteps and so um, who's who's in that, who's in that role?
Speaker 1:now, I can't think of anybody. Yeah, that's why I was like you know, I think I mean it's almost like right now, what I'm encouraging the younger guys to to read and listen to is old yeah francis schaefer yes, you know, like, like, go back, listen to um.
Speaker 1:You can now listen to martin jones sermons that were preached in the 50s 60s just just do that. It's it's. It's almost like maybe a blessing that right now there's not a mark driscoll voice, yes, like there was in 2008 and 10 and 12, which we see how that ended. Yep, it's sadly. When someone ascends to the high and level that he ascended to, it rarely ends well, whereas those guys that came out of the 80s with their ministries, like MacArthur, alistair, bag, guys that that own ramped more slowly because the internet. The guys had to come up with a radio ministry, which cost a lot of money, so he couldn't just drop their stuff on the internet like right now.
Speaker 1:If snowbird was trying to put out content and it was 1996 we would have to buy radio spots. Then you want to buy at a station that's syndicated or that where it's going to go outside of your little town. You know it was a big deal Cause, okay, I remember as a kid there's right here in West North Carolina there's half a dozen radio stations. Three or four of them are AM and which our younger listeners may not know what that even means. But you know sound quality wasn't great, it didn't go far, it didn't means. But you know, sound quality wasn't great, it didn't go far, it didn't. But every little church would have a, a slot on there and so I remember three or four local pastors would go to the radio station and and do their weekly radio show and it just went out in haywood county or jackson county and that was. That was kind of that was the if you were going to get influence outside of the four walls of your church. That's how you did it.
Speaker 1:Well now, every church Vengeance Creek Baptist Church, right here in Vengeance Creek, which is in Marble, between Andrews and Murphy, north Carolina, that's a rural, country, little church, but I love those people, I know them all. The pastor's a good friend. The pastor's a good friend super country mountain church well, I watch about once a month. I'll go watch their sunday service on facebook tv, whatever youtube some it's, I can. I can find it and watch it if you're on facebook or youtube, because people are streaming that stuff. Everybody's got a voice now, yes, so I think what I'm getting at is there may not be a need for sure a driscoll type voice, a piper type voice.
Speaker 3:Find solid people and I think that's what's important, right, it's because, okay, so, and again we're just spitballing because we just we didn't plan this conversation. But you know, I would turn on the radio and I would hear chuck swindoll, adrian rogers, bless them both. Chuck Smith, john Piper right, oh gosh, what was that? Louis Palau.
Speaker 3:No not him Ruiz, something like that, but I was in California so it was this one preacher and you would get such a variety. Yeah, but I wouldn't say if you listen to any of those guys that you know, I wouldn't discourage anybody from listening to. Chuck Smith, because you're a pirate, that's right because now that you'd have to learn to eat the watermelon, spit out the seeds but you're like okay, we, you know, we're mostly on the same team here.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. This is, this is you're going to get really good stuff. But I think you know now there's such an influx of content that you know there's not a a singular, singular Christian radio station. That, in a sense, is shaping, you know, shaping what people listen to, because they get to filter out. Okay, we're not bringing this guy, this guy, this person, you know, but now there's no filter because it's sky's the limit. So some people, you know, they get, they get big podcasts and you're like, you know um, I want to tell folks a couple of people that I listen to.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to that that I've probably never mentioned on here. I love to listen to some personal friends that I know are faithful pastors. I listened to a guy named Jeff Martin. Jeff Martin is a pastor of Redeemer I think it's Redeemer Community Church in Johnson City, tennessee. It's an act 29 church. That originally was I. It's an Acts 29 church. It originally was. I don't know if it still is. Jeff Martin was a student pastor. He used to bring students to Snowbird. He was at a church in Georgia. Then he was at a church in San Antonio, texas Brought them to SWO.
Speaker 1:Super faithful expositor, 25 to 30-minute sermons, very faithful, very well illustrated, but not like over the top. You know, a lot of times guys try too hard to illustrate. Be funny. I love listening to Jeff Martin. Nobody's ever heard of Jeff Martin. It's a church of 200, 300 people. So I put Jeff Martin as an example of someone. There's some Jeff Martins in your life. You just got to look for them. Local guys that are faithful. Or maybe they're not local, maybe they're in Texas. They're in in texas or missouri or california. Find those guys.
Speaker 1:Second guy, the guy that fits sort of the scholarly niche for me right now is a guy named stephen davey. Stephen davey is a pastor in raleigh and he is the president of a seminary called and I know some of our listeners right now are screaming the name of the seminary Shep, uh, not Shepherds, yeah, maybe Shepherds, and it's it and it meets this. It's at his church, which is and I think it's the address would be Cary. Cary is in the research triangle, it's a, it's a raleigh bedroom community. Stephen davey is amazing. He's this grandfatherly guy that has a very just, gentle presentation. He's so he. He's one of those rare guys that blends deep, rich doctr and theological integrity with practical, outworking Christianity. You know, like here's, you know, one of the reasons I always loved Swindoll is he's easy to listen to.
Speaker 1:He's enjoyable and he's practical. So anyway, stephen Davies is kind of my theological guy right now that I he's not the only guy I listen to, but once a month I listen to a Stephen Davies sermon, um, so I I wanted to throw names out for for people that may not be listening to, um, these guys, uh, and then I do listen to Alistair Begg, and part of that is because I love his, uh, scottish accent. But as far as young dudes I think a lot of young people probably would I don't listen to this guy a lot but, a lot of young people would probably like to listen to Joby Martin.
Speaker 1:You familiar with him? Not really. Okay, joby Martin is. His church is called Church at 1122. He's Jacksonville, florida. I'm not kidding when I say this. I've listened to him, and's not. I don't. I don't know what it is, but it's not like I just don't listen to his sermons. I don't enjoy him as much, but he's faithful. It goes back to what we're saying about Comer. He's faithful and Joby Martin is more a southern guy. He would be like a modern southern version of what driscoll was doing in the pacific.
Speaker 1:Northwest. Joe b martin has sort of broken some of the bible belt molds, um. So he was a. He was a southern baptist guy. Then he became a youth pastor at an at a methodist church. I think I'm getting this story right. Jonathan revis told me this story. Jonathan revisvis is a good friend. He's a pastor in Jacksonville and he's a board member at SWO, if I think I'm getting this right.
Speaker 1:He became a youth pastor at a Methodist church and started doing it and the youth ministry started growing and he started really pulling people in. So he started meeting at 1122 on Sunday mornings. They would have their own church service and I don't know the whole ins and outs, but that was what worked to sync up with not interfering with the main worship service at that church on Sunday mornings. It was called Church at 1122. And eventually he launched and planted, and now I think he's back in the Southern Baptist realm, which I want to say something about Southern Baptist in a minute, because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about that denomination or that network of churches.
Speaker 1:But Joby Martin is a voice that I think a lot of people would enjoy listening to because he says things sometimes with a little bit of a sharp edge or tone where it kind of resonates that podcast world. Some of those guys you were mentioning earlier, that men resonate with you know somebody that's a little more aggressive, I think he's like that, so I think he's. Again, I don't listen to him. So if you go listen to him and you find that there's something off, I just know people that listen to him and I trust those people. So I think there's some merge, some emerging voices in that world.
Speaker 1:But, um, and then he. Honestly, I get to listen to you and the snowbird teaching team every week I get to sit under, I listen to your. Thursday we're getting ready to, or your friday, your friday breakout. This summer I listened to that breakout out of 10 Fridays. I listened to it six times I think. I mean I committed myself to go sit down, open up a notebook and listen to you give that talk six times, like we're blessed to be, to do what we do, to sit under constantly good teaching.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Like I said in the, we had a deep summer debrief meeting and Spencer's Wednesday morning sermon where he talks about Jesus' authority over hell Not the easiest topic to talk to middle school and high school students going into and I felt like he handled it, I mean. So I think he did such a good job, you know, with that sermon and I agree with you, I think that's a part of even since I've moved out here and being on staff, you know I have four other guys that I get a chance to sit under and listen to on a constant basis and so you know, almost that need of listening to content is really being fulfilled. Um, so I I've kind of been out of that.
Speaker 3:The podcast world you know, and I think too. I think, the older that I get to, I'm not as enamored by big platforms and big podcasts. You know, I've been in that world. I've seen behind the curtain. I'm really enamored with guys that I know are faithful. I don't care if you're a church of 50 or if you're a church of 5,000, if you have a reputation with the people that are closest to you that you are a faithful man of God, I want, I want to.
Speaker 3:I want to listen to you and I think, and yeah, and I and I have some, you know, some, some friends, that same thing you're just like okay, I'm going to listen because I know that this person is the real deal. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you served on staff. I won't say names, but you served on the staff of a church that if I said the name of the church or the pastor, everybody would know it's what I would call celebrity pastor, celebrity church, and so you've seen that side of it. I've never served in a ministry like that, but I have spoken at large events alongside of some folks that I realized they're just unreachable, unattainable, like like that leads me to believe. A lot of times what you're seeing on the screen or on the stage is not consistent with who this person might be.
Speaker 1:Again, I'm not naming anybody's names here, but in when you're in a, when you're in a church or a congregation or ministry that has open borders, so to speak, where you're accessible, you might run into the guy at the grocery store or the coffee shop. Um, there's something real about that. I want to be around people that just live life and split their own firewood, cut their own grass, buy their own groceries or whatever.
Speaker 3:You know what I'm saying I get it change your own oil like real people, yeah, and I think what the social media world has taught us is that you can have some people that are really good marketers, really good communicators. They're really good at this, at these skills that elevate them in our current cultural context doesn't mean that they're actually walking with Jesus, you know. And so I think we all, we all kind of experience that and feel that in this world. I mean, we do breakouts on social media and how, like man, it's fake guys. We all know that we're still drawn to it, towards reading and going back to some older voices and you know some some deeper theology, more difficult books, and you know cause it's like man. This stuff was the stuff that was tested over time. You know, this isn't just a pop culture moment.
Speaker 1:I love the fact that, like when somebody comes to an event here there's a couple events this fall that we're doing Somebody comes in here, they're going to hear from four different dudes you and me and two other guys in four sessions and somebody comes to be strong, they're going to hear from potentially six dudes. I love that and it's all in-house. Six dudes, I love that. Yeah, and it's all in-house. Yeah, we're not. We're not bringing. It's not like a conference where again I've spoken at events where we were speaking at an event, um, where jeff struker was one of the speakers.
Speaker 1:Jeff struker was the lead humvee driver in the black hawk down deal. Um, dudes, he's a dude, you know like a dude and he's. But he went on and got his master's, I think his PhD. He's a pastor, I think now he might be serving at Southeastern Seminary, maybe. But Strucker was like Ranger of the Year twice, was 75th Ranger guy. So I got him speaking. I was doing one of the sessions Clayton King was doing one of the sessions Lecrae was performing one night, I think, toby Mac maybe the other night, but nobody networked. You wrote these guys. I just wanted to chop it up with that. Now, struker was awesome. I got to hang out with him. Some these dudes are rolling. You couldn't even get to him in a green room you could. It was like people roll in. It's like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. They're in for their session, the lights, the cameras, whatever, and then they're gone. One of the things I love about SWO is what do we do after a worship service in the evening in that building right over there?
Speaker 3:It's super cool. We get down, we stand in the back, we talk to everybody.
Speaker 1:Anybody can come up and talk to you, anybody. You go in there, you do that breakout. You do a breakout on any cultural topic and you're accessible. People can come talk to you right now.
Speaker 3:I love that. We want to answer the questions we want to share. I think even when we do our Iron on Iron, you know the whole intention is like, hey, let's network with other youth pastors that are in the trenches that we could share with each other. Because, you know, one week, one year, you're going to come to Iron on Iron and you feel like you're on the mountaintop, things are going great. And then the next week or the next year we just read this really difficult email from a youth pastor that is just going through it because of some tragedy in his ministry. And that's just real.
Speaker 3:If you've been in ministry, you have both of those experiences. And sometimes it's just good to be able to fellowship with brothers in Christ that love Jesus, that you kind of put your guard down. Good to be able to fellowship with brothers in Christ that love Jesus, that you can kind of put your guard down and you can say, hey, man, I need help in this area. Or hey, you know how did you navigate this situation with you know? And kind of more than just even the people on the stage. It's like, hey, here's, there's, you know we're sitting around a fire with a bunch of faithful pastors. And this guy crossed the way. He's been in ministry for 25 years, you know, and he, he, he has an insight, you know, yes, Thanks so much y'all for listening.
Speaker 1:That was a good time. I enjoyed that conversation with John. We ended up once we stopped recording, we talked for another 10 minutes, Just so. He's such a provocative guy in the way he thinks and processes and, having having lived most of his life on the West coast, done most of his ministry in places like LA Hollywood, even in a world where professing Christians tend to to align a lot of their worldview, it seems to be shaped more from a secular perspective. Dude's passionate about it and he's super insightful. But, um, yeah, I think, uh, for me, I always find those conversations with John very, very helpful. All right, We'll see y'all next week. Have an awesome week.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening to no sanity required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at SW outfitterscom to see all of our programming and resources and we'll see you next week on no Sanity Required.
